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CarnegieSteel
Posted - 2011.03.16 21:23:00 - [31]
 

Logistics are fine as they are.

Station gaming however, is pretty stupid. Repairing someone with an aggression timer should give an aggression timer.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.16 22:26:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Awesome Possum
How do you negate neutral RR? Griffin, Kitsune, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion, Widow, Tengu. take your pick.


I'd personally use Tempests/artycanes and pick up a bunch of free killmails.

-Liang


I love you so much, when Incarna hits have my podlings.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.17 01:10:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: CarnegieSteel
Repairing someone with an aggression timer should give an aggression timer.

Well that would be the end for outlaw logistics in lowsec as they never ever will be able to jump as they will refresh each others agression timer indefinitely with the chain. And if they drop the chain the sentries will make sure nothing but dust will jump across after 60 seconds.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.17 05:31:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: CarnegieSteel
Repairing someone with an aggression timer should give an aggression timer.

Well that would be the end for outlaw logistics in lowsec as they never ever will be able to jump as they will refresh each others agression timer indefinitely with the chain. And if they drop the chain the sentries will make sure nothing but dust will jump across after 60 seconds.


Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Cassus Temon
Aliastra

Posted - 2011.03.17 06:39:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
A buffer tanked DPS ship can stop firing for 60 seconds to deagress and dock/jump/whatever. It can do so while receiving reps. If you need to run, having your DPS cease fire while logis keeps them up is an essential tactic.

Now assume that you got a 60 second timer every time you repped someone. Like, say, another logistic trying to wait out his 60 second timer. Now he has to rep you. And...you have to survive for 60 seconds without receiving reps...
...on a cruiser.

You're an idiot.


Spoken like a true idiot!

The idea is to prevent exploitation of a faulty game mechanic. You just stated that you, should have the ability to agress someone; then use a Logi to rep you, so you can stop shooting them and deagress, if you get in trouble. So you now have a 1-2K DPS tanks, and you can sit pretty; while a neutral keeps you alive, in the fight. The other guy might as wll just give up, and go home. There is supposed to be risk in PvP; not every possible advantage, for the guy who wants to do it.

I had a fight the other day, (all my PvP seems to go this way); where I took on 10 guys outside a station. Just me, in a Hurricane; vs. 4 Combat ships, and Logi's, and a Probe scanning my fit. I new what I was getting into when I flipped the can; but that's some lousy PvP, with 10 against 1.

I admit, I still had fun; but, that's probably because I didn't give a crap. Almost nobody, ever has the balls to take me one on one; unless they know they have a guaranteed win, in a better ship. Say, Command ship vs. frigate; or maybe a Hac, vs. a Cruiser. EVE isn't just about PvP; but it's a good part of it. There's a number of people, as usual; who'd like that to be all it has to offer.

But then they'd be broke, or the best; and everybody would quit. You'd have a thousand people left on the server; playing wargames all over Empire and Null.

The more you choose PvP; the less game, there is going to be. Less people, less content, less interest.

Make them accountable. If you PvP; you're a target.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.03.17 08:20:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 17/03/2011 08:21:24
Then you've clearly missed the point. Logistics has counters. If you let them go about their business and rep people unhindered, then YES, you deserve to get your ship blown up.

Try ewar. Try neuting. Try just about ANYTHING other than shooting the things. They've got a 70m signature radius, T2 resists, and are built to do nothing but repair damage. Is it really that surprising that shooting them isn't the best idea?

And if they dock up? Congratulations. You can shoot your target again, unhindered by those evil neutral-reppers!

Oh, and incidentally? It's not neutral reps you're complaining about now. I can do exactly what you described with a wardec'd logistic ship too.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.17 11:10:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
....

Sure there are counters as with most things, but I fear you are the one missing the point.

Example:
You have a nice wardec against an equally deranged foe and good times are assured.
Once fighting starts, all nice and even like, a bunch of neutrals start flashing as they repair the enemy.
- You can divert fire to dock/jump them = you lose DPS race.
- You can choose to ignore them = you lose DPS race.
- You can bring 'Da Blob' = you'll never get a fight.
It is Lose-Lose for the side not abusing it.

Mechanics as they are actually encourage the use of neutral RR in high and low-sec.
I am quite frankly surprised that there are not a multitude of groups offering neutral RR services for wardec'ees .. completely non-committal and 100% safe.

Don't even get me started on undock carriers, those are even worse but thankfully rare in civilized space.
Ex. Dockable RR pretty much obsoletes the entire 'disable station services' side of null attrition warfare.

Gordin Brott
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.17 14:22:00 - [38]
 

I personally favour a nuclear option to curtail neutral remote repping. Have any character who remote reps/sensor boosts/cap transfers another character inherit their aggression, and suffer the full consequences of it. That would firstly include the standard jump/aggro timer, but also impose additional penalties.

Take the following example: You have ships A, B, and C; C being a neutral remote repper.

A and B are at war, have canflipped, or are otherwise engaged. Remote repper C then reps B. As B is engaged with A, the remote repper should suffer the consequences of attacking A and anybody else who B has attacked in the last 60 seconds as if they themselves had attacked them. As such, unless C could legitimately attack A (i.e. A is red to him), C should suffer the consequences of an unprovoked attack, mainly getting concorded in highsec, or going gcc in lowsec.

This would effectively limit remote-repping to non-neutrals in highsec, while making their use in lowsec less attractive. While people would still be free to remote-rep, it would be neccessary to have your remote-reppers in-corp, or wardec the enemy with them separately. This would force people to effectively play with their hand of cards visible, and allow their oponents to properly scout the available logistics. To To reduce abuse and mistakes, a 'do you really want to do that?' type popup could be shown if a player is about to rep a dangerous target, as well as interrupting the rep cycle if your target aggresses on another oponent/station.

Essentially, the in-game rationale for this would be that Concord should take a rather dim view of neutral parties interrupting a sanctioned war, and should respond appropriately.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.17 15:35:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/03/2011 15:38:46
Originally by: Gordin Brott
This would effectively limit remote-repping to non-neutrals in highsec, while making their use in lowsec less attractive.


I guess its not enough that using a logistics in low sec means you're going to be taking sentry fire 100% of the time you're undocked, and if you're in the FW taking a faction standings hit to your own faction every time you rep someone. Maybe we can just have Concord spawn and blow you up every time you activate a remote repair module? Or maybe we can just give logistics ships jump drives because that's the only way you'll ever get a pair of Guardians through a gate? Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Sure there are counters as with most things, but I fear you are the one missing the point. ... Dockable RR pretty much obsoletes the entire 'disable station services' side of null attrition warfare.


No, he didn't miss the point. You are. See, the problems that you're pointing out are all strictly related to stations - not gates. All the action that happens on gates is pretty well balanced and has a multitude of well known and well used counters. So... fix the problem. STATIONS. Not neutral, or hostile, or whatever RR.

-Liang

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.17 16:38:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
....

And how would you propose such a solution would look; No actions possible within docking range perhaps?
The null blobs would be very cross if you took away a reason to flaunt their leet camping skills Very Happy

Doesn't matter if you take stations out of the equation though, they just serve to make the problem of neutral activity stand out.
- They can come at range and still be relatively safe (depending on engagement type). All that does is add damps as 'counter' which again impacts fight outcome.
- Neutral RR on High<->Low gates allows complete immunity, Concord protects the neutral.
- You have to shoot the RR to make them jump, thus losing DPS race AND you need more dudes to intercept on other side which only works if unscouted as excessive numbers tend to discourage fights.

It remains Lose-Lose no matter where you run into neutrals assisting one side. Only way to insulate one from it is to use it oneself which is why it must go.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.17 16:51:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
And how would you propose such a solution would look


I'm game for any number of solutions which nerf station games instead of needlessly nerfing logistics.

Quote:

- They can come at range and still be relatively safe (depending on engagement type). All that does is add damps as 'counter' which again impacts fight outcome.



This is you complaining that someone is fighting you. Someone call the Waaaahmbulance.

Quote:

- Neutral RR on High<->Low gates allows complete immunity, Concord protects the neutral.



I'm pretty sure they still have player+corp aggression for assisting during the war dec. I don't believe this is controlled by system. Even if it isn't, that's a really terrible reason to nerf an otherwise balanced and working ship class.

Quote:

- You have to shoot the RR to make them jump, thus losing DPS race AND you need more dudes to intercept on other side which only works if unscouted as excessive numbers tend to discourage fights.



Practically speaking, this is a non issue because you need people either already on the other side or ready to jump through (read: not aggressed) to catch anyone who deagresses.

-Liang

Actionbastrd
Posted - 2011.03.17 18:52:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Actionbastrd on 17/03/2011 18:52:52
I approve (of it being nerfed, in what way i'm not sure yet).

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.17 19:15:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm pretty sure they still have player+corp aggression for assisting during the war dec. I don't believe this is controlled by system. Even if it isn't, that's a really terrible reason to nerf an otherwise balanced and working ship class.

Neutral only flashes to whomever is directly affected by his actions, so if and only if you have shot at the target being repped at the time he is repped .. perhaps you should read up on the topic before commenting further?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Practically speaking, this is a non issue because you need people either already on the other side or ready to jump through (read: not aggressed) to catch anyone who deagresses.

If you only ever ride with a blob where you can have people everywhere and have a good chunk not pulling their weight just in case they have to jump, sure it is a non-issue ..
Originally by: Liang Nuren
This is you complaining that someone is fighting you. Someone call the Waaaahmbulance.

Have a nice day moron. Enjoy circle-jerking yourself from here on out.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.17 19:47:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/03/2011 19:47:13
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Neutral only flashes to whomever is directly affected by his actions, so if and only if you have shot at the target being repped at the time he is repped .. perhaps you should read up on the topic before commenting further?



So what you're saying is that if you're shooting someone on a high sec gate and and he brings in a bunch of neutral RR and reps himself up, that they become flagged to you even if they jump into the next system?

Wow. That sounds exactly like what I said would happen. And something that isn't broken.

Quote:

If you only ever ride with a blob where you can have people everywhere and have a good chunk not pulling their weight just in case they have to jump, sure it is a non-issue ..



I fly in "extremely" small gangs - from 1-6 people. My opponents fly in "small" gangs of 10-150. Yes, we totally blob. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Originally by: Liang Nuren
This is you complaining that someone is fighting you. Someone call the Waaaahmbulance.

Have a nice day moron. Enjoy circle-jerking yourself from here on out.



That is EXACTLY what you are complaining about.

Moron.

-Liang

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.03.17 21:09:00 - [45]
 

What this thread needs is a counter proposal:

If a Logistic ship reps someone with a timer of any sort, they inherit the timer in question. They do not get a fresh timer, they instead receive whatever time is left on the party in question.

Example: Arty Tempest blasts someone on a gate, thinking he can survive the 30 seconds to redock after it blows up. He can't, and calls for reps with 10 seconds left. Both the tempest and the logistic can jump 10 seconds later.

If any other logistics ships are currently aiding that logistics, they will probably inherit the timer too. They won't be able to jump until 10 seconds have passed, but at least the whole gang won't be stuck on the gate indefinitely because the guardians need to keep their cap up.

There. Now logis can't rep and immediately dock up after you shoot them -- they just have to survive for 30 seconds. However, unlike in your proposal, we can actually cease our "offensive actions" -- that is, repping people that are still actively firing on you, without committing suicide (cutting our mutual capacitor chain).

Manalapan
Dynasty Banking
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.17 21:19:00 - [46]
 

I support fixing of neutral remote repair. This is the primary focus of my campaign as it is a matter of balancing high sec.

Support Manalapan HERE


Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.03.18 06:37:00 - [47]
 

Nobody mentioned nerfing Logi's, or Remote Repair modules.

As for aggression, as it stands: The last time I actively recall watching someone Remote Repping a target in highsec; it was outside the station in a system 2 jumps from Dodixie. The target, I and another were fighting; was being repped by a Exequor, some 70km off. The only reason he was flashing to me; was because he had me targeted. Little blinky yellow targeting icon; which is why I noticed him.

It was after that, I noticed the graphical effect of his Cap Rep; and realized he was assisting the target, and boosting his Capacitor. In no way, was I or my friend; able to actively target or eliminate this individual. He was a Neutral, in Highsec. Aside from bumping him, with 3-4 small MWD Cruisers; to get him out of range, he was completely immune to any direct action. Unless someone had it in them to Suicide gank him; he was, effectively, untouchable.

EWAR can't be used on a Neutral in Highsec; Concord will fry you for trying. Any NOS, Neut., ECM, or the like; is considered a direct aggressive action. Just like shooting him with your guns. This, is the problem. Lowsec is a different story, of course; but only marginally so, at best. You'll still take a security hit; at the very least, for any direct action. In Null, he's primary; because it doesn't matter. He's also an easy kill, generally; provided the circumstance permits, and he's in range.

I don't think the RR should be nerfed; I think the Neutral should be made accountable. He/she, has too much immunity. That doesn't mean they should have extended aggression timers; or even be party to Kill Rights, as the OP suggested. They should, immediately; gain an aggression timer, as normal. They have entered battle, and committed themselves; and should, be treated as any other in that regard. Then, it becomes a decision with consequences; not an action, for which they cannot be held accountable.

That's PvP. Risk and Reward = Risk and Loss.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.03.18 10:29:00 - [48]
 

+1 Fix and change CCP this neutral repping methods.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.18 10:30:00 - [49]
 

Supported

Johnny Lou
Posted - 2011.03.18 13:35:00 - [50]
 


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.18 16:56:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Cassus Temon
Nobody mentioned nerfing Logi's, or Remote Repair modules.


Giving aggression timers for remote repair is a nerf, because it dramatically reduces (eliminates) the ability of logistics ships to deagress. Furthermore, logistics ships are completely balanced in today's environment with today's aggression mechanics.

The problem being complained about is station games of all varieties. So fix station games.

-Liang

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.21 21:00:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Cassus Temon
Nobody mentioned nerfing Logi's, or Remote Repair modules.

As for aggression, as it stands: The last time I actively recall watching someone Remote Repping a target in highsec; it was outside the station in a system 2 jumps from Dodixie. The target, I and another were fighting; was being repped by a Exequor, some 70km off. The only reason he was flashing to me; was because he had me targeted. Little blinky yellow targeting icon; which is why I noticed him.

It was after that, I noticed the graphical effect of his Cap Rep; and realized he was assisting the target, and boosting his Capacitor. In no way, was I or my friend; able to actively target or eliminate this individual. He was a Neutral, in Highsec. Aside from bumping him, with 3-4 small MWD Cruisers; to get him out of range, he was completely immune to any direct action. Unless someone had it in them to Suicide gank him; he was, effectively, untouchable.

EWAR can't be used on a Neutral in Highsec; Concord will fry you for trying. Any NOS, Neut., ECM, or the like; is considered a direct aggressive action. Just like shooting him with your guns. This, is the problem. Lowsec is a different story, of course; but only marginally so, at best. You'll still take a security hit; at the very least, for any direct action. In Null, he's primary; because it doesn't matter. He's also an easy kill, generally; provided the circumstance permits, and he's in range.

I don't think the RR should be nerfed; I think the Neutral should be made accountable. He/she, has too much immunity. That doesn't mean they should have extended aggression timers; or even be party to Kill Rights, as the OP suggested. They should, immediately; gain an aggression timer, as normal. They have entered battle, and committed themselves; and should, be treated as any other in that regard. Then, it becomes a decision with consequences; not an action, for which they cannot be held accountable.

That's PvP. Risk and Reward = Risk and Loss.


Your story is full of poopy.

Any friendly remote act by a neutral upon anybody with an aggression timer will transfer that aggression to the neutral. Any friendly remote act by a neutral upon anybody with a live wardec will gain an aggression timer and turn red to anyone the target is at war with.

in simple people talk. if A remotely transfers (cap, sensor boosts, armor rep, shield rep, or hull rep) to B.. then A goes red to anyone that can currently shoot B.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:50:00 - [53]
 

Last I checked, that's how it already works. Very Happy

zerthis
Posted - 2011.03.22 19:10:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Awesome Possum

Any friendly remote act by a neutral upon anybody with an aggression timer will transfer that aggression to the neutral. Any friendly remote act by a neutral upon anybody with a live wardec will gain an aggression timer and turn red to anyone the target is at war with.

in simple people talk. if A remotely transfers (cap, sensor boosts, armor rep, shield rep, or hull rep) to B.. then A goes red to anyone that can currently shoot B.


If this where only true but this is not what happens. I see it all the time in Domain region with neutral remotes which can not be touched as they never go red while boosting/repairing engaged wardec target.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.22 19:24:00 - [55]
 

I wonder if that's an overview bug.

-Liang

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.03.23 00:45:00 - [56]
 

Neutral Repping from Logistics is not the problem with Neutral Repping. It is the asshats like the OP's associates that go to a 1v1 and then have their buddies warp in with RRing battleships.

And people wonder why I carry ECM drones on everything I fly.

orphenshadow
Gallente
Easy Co.
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.03.23 08:34:00 - [57]
 

repairing someone who is aggressed should, also aggress the person applying the reps.

Supported.


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