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The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.10 23:04:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
Now this could be that you all adapted various strategies to work around sec status, and I'd like to hear some of them.


If you skip podding and do a lot of annos/beltratting(yes it is boring/time consuming) it is possible. However most people simply go -10 and use a alt for hauling since it is a lot less effort(both for keeping sec up and keep a eye on people with kill rights if you are in empire).

Originally by: Orakkus
Another thing I would like to ask relates to the experiences I had in a low-sec corp. One thing was how frustrating it was to not really have "ownership" as it were of the space we were protecting and using, and this became more of a headache with the changes to sec status as well as the boosting of gate guns. Instead of deterring the pirates, all it did was make it more difficult to defend ourselves. That being said, are the feelings I had back those years ago still true, or has the sec status changes really helped in that regard?


Well avoiding bigger gangs is mostly just a temporarily thing. In real fights for space(didn't had this since 2007 in low sec actually, and it took around 2 month till the offender left the area) most targets will be flashy anyway(even if they are not the level of care is extreme low and kill rights will settle the issues in a short manner in prolonged combat). It is actually a lot more fun than empire wars since people don't hide much, they are simply around and will try to take advantage if you engage someone or start up a fight if the feel like it.

Reima Antero
Posted - 2011.03.11 07:41:00 - [32]
 

I live in lowsec, between gallente/minmatar space. I do pretty much everything in lowsec, rat, PI, some mining, our corp used to have 2 POS set up, anomalies and pirate/pvp.

as a family man, I rarely have time to get into fleets etc. I like solo pvp and lowsec provides with a nice amount of targets for it, it would be great if the players who normally would just hang out in highsec, would come and try some pvp in lowsec.

Some of the chokepoints of lowsec are usually inhabited by some bigger corporations(rancer anyone?), and pretty much all lowsec systems have a corp or two holding their base there. If you want your space, you need to have good relations with the inhabitants or enough brute force to make their life so miserable that they leave. For ratting and mining lebensraum is important ;D

Though imo, If you mine in lowsec belts, your doing it wrong. Grav sites on the otherhand are much more usefull. As far as im concerned, the occasional trucker rats provide enough minerals with the meta 1-3 modules to keep up with my manufacturing. Remember you get a lot more module drops in lowsec belt rats than in missions.

What I would like to see, is somehow making small-scale mining/manufacturing, more appealing(a bit safer or much cheaper). This would encourage highsec industry corps to move into lowsec. The gain to risk ratio should be high. How about removing manufacturing costs from the stations? introducing high end ores to lowsec? Much more gravimetric sites?

Increasing gravimetric sites a LOT:
-Would make mining them safer, because of time to probe versus align.

High end ores:
-would make it more profitable. 0.0 ores or how about ultra dense veldspar for veldspar lovers ;D etc.

Removing manufacturing costs in lowsec stations:
-Would make manufacturing cheaper. oh really?

Ultimatetly what im aiming for, is more targets to lowsec for me to blow up and steal their loot. Killmails too. oh and carebear tears <3

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.11 12:46:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 11/03/2011 13:16:04
Out of curiosity, why are vast regions of NPC 0.0 space that are hardly ever used (such as Syndicate) never targeted for improvement by characters that don't live there?

Vixisti
The Scope
Posted - 2011.03.11 15:06:00 - [34]
 

I've lived in lowsec for 3 or 4 years now, before that I lived in 0.0.

The way I see it is that if 0.0 is mostly for easy isk making and large powerbases to throw their weight around, then low sec should be seen as a place where an enterprising smaller corp can make their mark and isk too for that matter.

FW has improved low sec in that in the FW areas it's certainly a lot more populated than it was and the FW mission are great isk makers. The problem is that most of the level 4 FW missions can be done solo in stealth bombers which makes the isk making too easy and doesn't enhance the area for other low sec dwellers.

A couple of things things that would enhance low sec are:

*A workable bounty system. Several very good unexploitable ideas have been put forward regarding this and it would bring more adventurers/targets into low sec for sure. As yet nothing has been done - why?

*A more compelling reason for people to belt rat in low sec. I don't see any reason why belt rats shouldn'd be at least as profitable as 0.0 as the risk is certainly much greater in low sec. If you want safe belt ratting go to 0.0 and join an alliance but I don't see any reason why the rewards should be much greater for belt ratting in 0.0 as it's almost risk free isk if you're paying attention. The easy access to low sec is offset by the fact that it's more dangerous.





Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.14 18:51:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Orakkus on 14/03/2011 18:51:55
Originally by: Vixisti
The way I see it is that if 0.0 is mostly for easy isk making and large powerbases to throw their weight around, then low sec should be seen as a place where an enterprising smaller corp can make their mark and isk too for that matter.


Those are my personal thoughts exactly. With such a push and a drive to go back towards small gang PVP, I would think the best place to do that would be to make low-sec space more condusive to it. That's what I am hoping to push for after I do some more fact-finding.

So, that said, here is the summary of what I see going on:

  • Outside of high-sec connecting systems, most of low-sec is barren.
    [*]Faction War is a legitimate form of isk making, however, it still may need to be tweaked.
    [*]The current overall state of mining (i.e. boring activity, bots, need for efficiency) makes low-sec belt mining the least attractive option for industrial minded people.
    [*]Aggro Mechanics are a bit complicated and difficult for a non-PVP player to grasp, much less utilize to their advantage.
    [*]The nature of industrial and Mission Runner pilots is simply to avoid risk if at all possible.
    [*]Unless you are in capital ship production, there is little reason to operate out of low-sec space.
    [*]Supercapitals/capital strikes are an ever present problem as they can be cyno'ed onto a mining/industrial op easily.


My summary as well, please help me to make sure it is accurate:

"In summary then, its the fact that the cost to risk value isn't there overall. While missions pay a bit more and their are better ores, it doesn't compare next to the potential costs of losing higher end ships. This can be avoided by careful planning, smart tactics, etc. but those aren't going to be developed by small corps unless there is a real draw for them to be in low-sec (like Faction Warfare which sort of scratches the "RP" guys). The mindset required to benefit from low-sec is markedly different than the mindset needed for High-sec, because for 0.0 already understand that the gloves are off and that whatever is done to them, they can also do. In many ways it is easier to go from the High-sec mindset to the 0.0 mindset than to low-sec because there are many influencing factors for low-sec, like aggression, sec status, generally smaller corp sizes, lack of freedom of movement for pirates, level of aggro mechanic understanding, etc. There also is the reality that, other than missions and perhaps FW, there is no good financial reason to go deeper into low-sec.

One thing that is most talked about in regards to PVP is gate camps. Getting through a gate camp is technically easier in low-sec, but the actual difficulty in this naturally puts off the independent pilots as well as the very small corps who would probably take the risk on the off-chance they will get rich. Since the most profitable/fun locations for PVP is on high-sec entrances to low-sec system, then there is going to be a much higher proportion of PVP pilots (pirates) in those systems, which perpetuates the belief that low-sec is abnormally dangerous with monsters lurking at every corner."

Is that a good understanding of the situation?

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.14 19:29:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Monger Man on 14/03/2011 19:34:57


Is that a good understanding of the situation?



No I don't really think you get it. Look, isk wise there is absolutely nothing wrong with losec. I've been thinking a pretty smart, fairly small corp could potentially make a fortune in lowsec. The people who want to be out there are.
The people who don't care for it wont no matter what the rewards. Hell you would have to break the entire economy in order to get a larger hisec population out to losec, They would have to pull in billions a day solo for them to even consider it. Either you make lowsec = hisec and they will come out. And then I will leave.

Or ... well they just don't want that play style. So you're kinda hosed.

--one edit--

Mining wise. You would have to change mining to get people to do it in lowsec.
I don't think there is problems with losec. There are problems with other game
mechanics making lowsec difficult to make isk in the standard hisec carefree way.

And even if you fixed up those mechanics, will people come out. Maybe a few more.
Sadly it seems the large portion of the player base are pve players. And CCP isn't going to spend a massive amount of time on pvp content for a much smaller portion of the player base. IE incarna..

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.14 19:52:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 14/03/2011 20:06:58
Like I said in the S&I thread...

I really think that the problem with low-sec is that anything you can get in low-sec, you can get somewhere else and do it easier. That means that carebears face a risk (debate the level of the risk if you like, but the risk is there) to get something that they could get from somewhere else, and probably do it safer. Facing a risk is all fine and good, but there needs to be a reason to justify it vs simply running another Lv4, or joining a 0.0 pet or WH corp.

Meanwhile, for all other areas of space, there is something you can get that you can't get in the other areas of space.

Hi-sec has Concord.
WH space has T3 mats.
NPC 0.0 has Pirate faction goods.
Sov 0.0 has sovereignty and its upgrades.

When low-sec offers something that people want and can't get somewhere else, there will be people in low-sec getting it.

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.14 20:09:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Monger Man on 14/03/2011 20:11:13
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 14/03/2011 19:57:24
Like I said in the S&I thread...

I really think that the problem with low-sec is that anything you can get in low-sec, you can get somewhere else and do it easier. That means that carebears face a risk (debate the level of the risk if you like, but the risk is there) to get something that they could get from somewhere else, and probably do it safer. Facing a risk is all fine and good, but there needs to be a reason to justify it vs simply running another Lv4, or joining a 0.0 pet or WH corp.

Meanwhile, for all other areas of space, there is something you can get there that you can't get in the other areas of space.

Hi-sec has Concord.
WH space has T3 mats.
NPC 0.0 has Pirate faction goods.
Sov 0.0 has sovereignty and its upgrades.

When low-sec offers something that people want and can't get easier somewhere else, there will be people in low-sec getting it.



I think this guy has hit it on the head. To a degree Faction wars has done that.
You can get Faction blue prints in hi sec, but it is drastically easier to get them running Faction wars missions. But even with that. It still a bit limited.

Maybe instead of changing the mechanics of lowsec (not a problem in my opinion).
There needs to be something else available. I would also say it should be smaller group friendly. Lowsec should be the place to test the more dangerous waters.
And people usually do that alone or in small groups.

Would it get more people out? Meh not really sure. I would like to see numbers on how PI has effected people moving out to lowsec. Sure PI isn't a big one shot money maker. But it seems drastically better in lowsec compared to hisec.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.14 20:11:00 - [39]
 

And FW just doesn't count as enough of a motivator to be in there.

@Monger Man - Yeah, I can see where you are coming from. And just like what Durnin said, there isn't anything out there that you can only get in low-sec. And you are right in that no matter how rich one could get.. some people are simply "risk-adverse" and they ain't going because the comfort level simply isn't there. You did make one important point though that I want to elaborate on: "a pretty smart, fairly small corp". The thing is where in Eve can we generate those "smarts"? While I think Agony and Eve University and others do an excellent job at training newer players at PVP tactics, industry, etc., is it reasonable to develop a way of pushing for those "smarts" inside the system? Maybe the carrot of "isk" isn't the only option?

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.14 20:15:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Monger Man on 14/03/2011 22:10:57
Originally by: Orakkus
And FW just doesn't count as enough of a motivator to be in there.

@Monger Man - Yeah, I can see where you are coming from. And just like what Durnin said, there isn't anything out there that you can only get in low-sec. And you are right in that no matter how rich one could get.. some people are simply "risk-adverse" and they ain't going because the comfort level simply isn't there. You did make one important point though that I want to elaborate on: "a pretty smart, fairly small corp". The thing is where in Eve can we generate those "smarts"? While I think Agony and Eve University and others do an excellent job at training newer players at PVP tactics, industry, etc., is it reasonable to develop a way of pushing for those "smarts" inside the system? Maybe the carrot of "isk" isn't the only option?


And I agree FW isn't enough of a motivator. I think "smarts" is partially a UI problem. Again onto the dscan. It is the one most important things in keeping you alive (or getting a kill), and yet its so terrible. Not terrible in what it does, thats fine. Its use is horrific.
And that's just one example.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.14 21:01:00 - [41]
 

As a side point question, how many of you would be opposed to say a more roleplay feel to low-sec? Not necessarily wizard hattery, but just a more fleshed out RP feel for it?

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.03.15 05:10:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
As a side point question, how many of you would be opposed to say a more roleplay feel to low-sec? Not necessarily wizard hattery, but just a more fleshed out RP feel for it?


Why? FW, for those of us that participate in it, provides that already.

Low-sec is plenty profitable. You can make 100 million isk worth of LP in an hour running FW missions--that's no exaggeration. If FW isn't your thing, in one night of exploration, I found almost 1 bil isk in plex/escalation loot.

There's plenty of activity. Most of the people that live in low-sec full-time want to pew, period. For those of us in FW, that's a good thing. A lot of pirates want to move into FW space because of the higher activity levels. Most of the people who talk about improving Low-sec are pirates that kick the can because they can't stumble upon an 8-Hulk, Orca-supported mining op. Pirates are exactly the reason low sec is the way it is--they have no one to blame but themselves. If they actually policed themselves and exercised some self-discipline, low-sec wouldn't have the reputation it has with the industrial players. There is money to be made in low-sec. If you're smart, you can make a lot of isk, even without participating in FW and FW missions. Heck, near my home system, there's a couple of purely indy corps doing nothing more than running a dozen or so towers running reactions, making boosters, etc. And they're making enough isk doing it to make it worth their time.

Personally, all they need to do is get rid of super caps and low-sec would be fine.

I commend your effort to look at solutions, but those of us that live there full-time, and do it for PvP, think things are pretty good.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.15 17:20:00 - [43]
 

Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening everyone,

Last night as I was thinking about this issue (and it was actually keeping me up as well), I perhaps came to a realization. And I would like to see if you all agree, and if not, please explain.

One of the comments made by Durnin Stormbrow was the critical point. He mentioned:

Hi-Sec has Concord
WH Space has T3 Materials
NPC 0.0 Space has Pirate faction goods
Sov 0.0 Space has Soverignty and Upgrades

But really, its even more than that. In essence, low-sec seems fundamentally flawed. Its true that some people still can operate well within the confines of it, but at its very base its a flawed concept. Really, lets look at Sec Security indicators for example. The basic effect between 1.0 and 0.5 space is negligible, as if you attempt any PVP you will be killed by Concord irregardless. The quality of minerals and rats only changes slightly, and there are no difference is mission availabilities. On the other hand 0.4 to 0.1, again there really isn't much of a notable difference between them. The more I thought about it, the more it was silly how low-sec operated.. somewhat like annoying version of 0.0.

However, the biggest indicator of its flawed nature was that if you removed low-sec completely, either by making it all 0.0 or all High-sec, basically nothing would be lost. Not one thing. Small gang PVP/Piracy? Well, Wormhole space, Wardecs, and even 0.0 still gives you better options overall, with clear rules of engagement. Mining/PI/Construction/Trading? All those can be done better for different reasons in High-sec and 0.0. Large Scale PVP? 0.0 has that down. Faction Warfare? All that is right now is small to medium sized PVP, which can be done elsewhere just as easily. And the current setup of Faction warfare just doesn't seem complete as it stands.

Each type of space has something unique to offer the two major types of players (Combat and Industrial), with the risk being dependant upon your own desires. Low-sec doesn't do that at all effectively, for the either group. For that extra work you get, a little better types of ore or a little more POS control, etc. For the PVP player you don't get anything but rules that you have to work around (which some people do, and rightly should feel proud about working under more difficult conditions).

So, if the concept of low-sec is fundamentally flawed, then I figure we have two options to help fix it. First off, we can either do something to low-sec that makes it a unique experience for both types of players (much like what happened with Wormhole space) or decide that it should be the middle ground to all other types of space and adjust it to meet that goal.

What do you all think?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.15 17:39:00 - [44]
 

If you deleted/removed/changed lowsec into another sec of space, we would lose:
- Cruiser sized deadspace modules
- The FW (yes, this would be a net loss to the game)
- Small gang combat (No 50 people is not a small gang)
- Nonconsentual combat without bubbles

Yes, low sec needs some love. It doesn't need completely rewritten. Maybe something like this:
- Normalize all PVE rewards to 0.1 - including fighter assignment, moon mining, exploration, mission rewards, belt ratting, and more. And yes, I have found the exploration between 0.4 and 0.1 is quite different. Try exploring in Metropolis vs Aridia/Derelik. Shocked
- Add more factions to the FW. Specifically, the pirate and other minor factions.
- Expand the size (number of regions) and scope of the FW. Fix outstanding bugs and make occupancy more meaningful.
- Fix supercap ewar/tackle immunity in low sec. Fix 0.0 however you like, but that's the biggest problem *we* have with them.

I have no thoughts on low sec incursions, but it would be nice if unexpectedly jumping through a low sec incursion system with a small gang didn't mean you lose 3/4 of your gang before they can warp off the gate.

-Liang

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.15 18:03:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
If you deleted/removed/changed lowsec into another sec of space, we would lose:
- Cruiser sized deadspace module - A few quick clicks and now its in NPC 0.0 space
- The FW (yes, this would be a net loss to the game) - Agreed, but this can be moved to High-sec space or NPC 0.0 space with much of the same results
- Small gang combat (No 50 people is not a small gang) - Wormhole Space
- Nonconsentual combat without bubbles - Wardecs

Yes, low sec needs some love. It doesn't need completely rewritten. Maybe something like this:
- Normalize all PVE rewards to 0.1 - including fighter assignment, moon mining, exploration, mission rewards, belt ratting, and more. And yes, I have found the exploration between 0.4 and 0.1 is quite different. Try exploring in Metropolis vs Aridia/Derelik. Shocked
- Add more factions to the FW. Specifically, the pirate and other minor factions.
- Expand the size (number of regions) and scope of the FW. Fix outstanding bugs and make occupancy more meaningful.
- Fix supercap ewar/tackle immunity in low sec. Fix 0.0 however you like, but that's the biggest problem *we* have with them.

I have no thoughts on low sec incursions, but it would be nice if unexpectedly jumping through a low sec incursion system with a small gang didn't mean you lose 3/4 of your gang before they can warp off the gate.

-Liang


First off, don't get me wrong, I WANT low-sec to be truly relevant and honestly think it is the most underutilized part of Eve due to a severe lack of interest and cohesive goals on the part of CCP. What I am wanting to figure out right now is whether the goal and focus of getting everyone unified (reasonably so anyways) should be taking the basic foundation of what we have and developing a solid list of changes that can be backed by the CSMs and essentially "pushed" for the next module, or are the problems and lack of uniqueness so severe that perhaps taking a completely new look is what is in order. Right now most of the combat pilots seem to be looking toward just rebuilding on the current foundation, while the industrial side (those that comment anyway), are either completely risk adverse (i.e. new look) to risk/reward not balanced (adjusting).

Whatever solution we finally present when all this is over must be reasonable to both viewpoints AND be something the community at large will get behind for the CSM.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.15 18:25:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Orakkus
What I am wanting to figure out right now is whether the goal and focus of getting everyone unified (reasonably so anyways) should be taking the basic foundation of what we have and developing a solid list of changes that can be backed by the CSMs and essentially "pushed" for the next module, or are the problems and lack of uniqueness so severe that perhaps taking a completely new look is what is in order.


As a current low sec resident, I'd like to see what we have expanded on. It's worth mentioning that I'm not just a combat pilot - I also do low sec missions, L5s, FW, and even industry there. I even have my hand in some low sec market hubs.

Quote:
Right now most of the combat pilots seem to be looking toward just rebuilding on the current foundation, while the industrial side (those that comment anyway), are either completely risk adverse (i.e. new look) to risk/reward not balanced (adjusting).


There's nothing you can do to attract the truly risk averse.. I think you're best off not focusing on them. I think my views basically go this way:
- PVE/Mission/Explorer: I already summed this up in the previous post. It doesn't need a massive rewrite... but I do have wet dreams about joining the FW under a pirate banner. :P
- Industry: Outside of general industry fixes, I think it'd be swell if we faced the fact that mining simply isn't going to happen in low sec. Making mineral compression and decompression easier would be a huge win for low sec industry.
- Mining: I think that mining is a horribly broken mechanic already and should be completely rewritten. If the current incarnation must see a boost, decreasing sig radius and increasing sensor strength on T2 mining barges - or introducing a difficult-to-scan barge - would be a good move for low sec mining. If there was anything worth mining. Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.15 18:27:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Monger Man on 15/03/2011 20:13:42
Edited by: Monger Man on 15/03/2011 18:30:52
Remember, lowsec's idea is a place for people to get a taste of a place where anything goes. You need a place where there aren't bubbles and interdictors snagging you. True fully I think low sec is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
Give players a stepping stone. Now could that first step be made a little better.
Possibly. But I'm starting to think you're beating a dead horse here.

Nobody has ever been able to come to any kind of a consensus on what to do with lowsec. It seems a large portion of players simply skip it and join a corp or alliance in 0.0 And the people who live there know that there is pew, and since the populace is pretty low, plenty of isk.

You know I just realized the most important part of fixing lowsec. The people who live there don't want it fixed, not broken. The people in hisec don't care one bit. 0.0 people don't care in the least. Heck I think the most people who want to fix it probably don't really live there themselves. Orakkus, is you're home base lowsec? How long have you been there if it is?
This is an edit.....
Apologies to Orakkus. The last bit was to attacking and it shouldn't matter.

You want to change lowsec? You're going to have to make the people who live there happy and get on board. You're going to have to get hisec people on board.
You wont please a large group of either.

Oh and
Quote:

- Mining: I think that mining is a horribly broken mechanic already and should be completely rewritten. If the current incarnation must see a boost, decreasing sig radius and increasing sensor strength on T2 mining barges - or introducing a difficult-to-scan barge - would be a good move for low sec mining. If there was anything worth mining. Rolling Eyes

-Liang



I think it should be completely rewritten as well, I won't touch it the way it is.
It really should be made more like PI has gone. My 2 cents.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.15 18:57:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Monger Man
Heck I think the most people who want to fix it probably don't really live there themselves.


I don't know that that's really true. I think most permanent low sec residents would like to see some low sec loving. Afterall, we actually live there and know what its ups and downs are. It really can be hard to grind your ISK... it usually is more lucrative just to go to high sec to mindlessly run your missions in your pimpmobile. There really are some super frustrating bugs. There really is so much potential.

But you also have to remember that low sec caters to a completely different play style than high sec and 0.0. Making major sweeping changes (even positive changes that overly emphasize current mechanics) will eliminate the only remaining home of that play style.

-Liang

Helana Troi
Posted - 2011.03.15 19:11:00 - [49]
 

Three changes I would make to improve low sec (and one's already complete) are:

1) Let probes show up on dscan. This has been fixed and low sec is better for it.
2) Make Veld the only commonly available ore in high sec outside of GRAV sites.
3) Extend CONCORD's reach down to 0.1 but scale the magnitude of the response down (fewer less powerful ships that arrive later) and remove CONCORD's instant-pop and invulnerability.

#2, if nothing else, would raise the cost of the mining bots. #3 could be replace with a private bounty system; perhaps you could pay local stations in NPC space to respond if you're attacked but I think it would be easier to just extend the CONCORD mechanic.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.15 19:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Helana Troi

3) Extend CONCORD's reach down to 0.1 but scale the magnitude of the response down (fewer less powerful ships that arrive later) and remove CONCORD's instant-pop and invulnerability.



What.
The.
****.

No.

-Liang

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.15 19:15:00 - [51]
 

As far as living in low-sec, no I don't live there currently, though the first year or two of my Eve career was there (Essence Region, then later Tash-Murkon in the Sukanan constellation). I think to say that people are "fine" with low-sec doesn't ring true to me, particularly considering that changes to low-sec was a big campaign issue for CSM 5 and nothing got done. The problem here is very similar to what we had with Minmatar Projectile weapons, as Liang can verify. Everyone has a way to fix low-sec, but no one agrees. And just like with Minmatar Projectiles, there were those on the edge who said that nothing was wrong, that it was everyone else's playstyle problem.

However, CCP only took a serious look at the problem AFTER the uproar was in full swing.. and AFTER there was a considerable level of focused agreement amoungst the populace of Eve that something needed to change. So, you on board? You willing to see if you can get something started the Mynxee as well as the rest of the CSM 5 weren't able to get done, despite all that they accomplished?

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.15 19:15:00 - [52]
 

Quote:

I don't know that that's really true.



You're right, I have the problem of making overly broad claims. I meant it in more of a general sense. Or worst case sense. I'd like to see a few more options for isk making myself. Exploration is ok, but the competition has gotten more fierce because that's one of the few things lowsec is good for.

On unique, we cant take something away from another part of the game and call it lowsec's only. To many people use those mechanics where they are and would feel nerfed. Example was I was thinking war decs should only be able to be carried out in lowsec. Then I realized thats just silly. Even if its a decent idea nobody would like it. And war decs would probably just not be used.


If we want something unique, It also needs to be fairly easy to implement. Or we wont see it for five years.

I really think its general game mechanics that keep people out at this point.
Not lowsec itself. Ore takes to much to move and process and sell to make it worth while in losec. Not to mention mining is just plain dumb.
I don't mission, never wanted to. That is one of the reasons I went to lowsec.

We need something like PI, lower cargo to move, don't have to sit in one place for hours. But what that is ... Question

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.15 19:34:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Helana Troi
Three changes I would make to improve low sec (and one's already complete) are:

1) Let probes show up on dscan. This has been fixed and low sec is better for it.
2) Make Veld the only commonly available ore in high sec outside of GRAV sites.
3) Extend CONCORD's reach down to 0.1 but scale the magnitude of the response down (fewer less powerful ships that arrive later) and remove CONCORD's instant-pop and invulnerability.

#2, if nothing else, would raise the cost of the mining bots. #3 could be replace with a private bounty system; perhaps you could pay local stations in NPC space to respond if you're attacked but I think it would be easier to just extend the CONCORD mechanic.


Umm.....
No

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.03.15 19:49:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Monger Man on 15/03/2011 20:17:59
Edited by: Monger Man on 15/03/2011 20:06:21
Ok here's an idea for people to discuss a bit.

Should be quick to implement. Sadly its not something unique, but I'm having a hard time with that.

Much more frequent hisec, losec, wormholes. And give them more mass. Could help people needing to move things to sell. And give hisec players more chances to check out lowsec without hitting the choke point gates.

And to Orakkus. I'm sorry If I came across attacking you. It shouldn't matter that you live here to have an interest. Though since you dont, you might want to move back out Twisted Evil. I need some different people to shoot at.

I've been in a bit of a soul crushing rut of losing ships.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.15 20:10:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Monger Man
You know I just realized the most important part of fixing lowsec. The people who live there don't want it fixed, not broken. The people in hisec don't care one bit. 0.0 people don't care in the least. Heck I think the most people who want to fix it probably don't really live there themselves. Orakkus, is you're home base lowsec? How long have you been there if it is?

Speaking for myself, I earn way more trading in hi-sec when I not even there to manage my orders, than I ever earn in low-sec. For me, low-sec is something to do that's interesting for a change of pace, not something that's profitable.
Running missions out there does pay better per mission than doing it in hi-sec, but takes much longer since you don't run them in the Navy BS with all the good gear, you run them in the stock BS with T2 gear, and you nerf your fit enough to survive a fail gate gank (unless you multi-box a scout, I don't).
When a typical night of exploration gives me 4-5 decriptors, a load of junk salvage, a few m4 drops worth hauling to market, and a bunch of M0-3 loot & drone poo to melt into minerals that are worthless locally; I'd have done better running 4s.
I keep hearing about the great money from expeditions, but I have yet to see any of it; I feel kind of like Charley Brown at Halloween… 'I got a rock.'
FW may pay well, but being Gallente… loosing access to Jita is too much of a cost to bear.
I think we can all agree that mining in low-sec is broken, and that fixing it would take either breaking low-sec PvP or having a unique resource to mine.

As far as low-sec mechanics, I don't have any problem with them. The Hic's and cap ships get to be annoying once in a while (once in a great while), but the line has going to be drawn somewhere. Kicking anything out of low-sec would only be another nerf, and that's not what we need.

Originally by: Monger Man
re: Mining...
It really should be made more like PI has gone. My 2 cents.

I agree 100% and actually proposed something along those lines shortly after the PI preview. There's 100s of other threads on mining, but whatever happens, all mining should take more player involvement than resetting the egg timer every few minutes.

The GreenT
Posted - 2011.03.15 20:28:00 - [56]
 

There have been some good ideas on this thread. I am really on board with the idea posted above about more factions in a greater area of space for low sec. I think that the plex's found in low sec are about the best thing for it. The ability to take ships out of a fleet that want a fight is great. Making this a more widespread mechanic can't hurt. As far as an implementation I have an idea to take this one step further.

There are plenty of non-empire factions that support piracy that are already linked to low sec regions. I think that an interesting implementation of this would be to make STANDING penalties to EMPIRE militia member for attacking anyone with a positive sec status. This would promote a safer area for empire controlled low sec and a more thrill environment for pirates.

On the flip side, for non-empire factions make it so that you do not pull GCC for attacking someone with NEGATIVE sec (-0.0 and lower) while in your faction's space.

This idea might be flamed because its a significant change, but its just an idea.

I agree with supercap problems in low sec.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.15 20:29:00 - [57]
 

Alright, I think we have a group then to work with now and I can see who is on board. I would have really liked to see more industrialists make more detailed comments regarding the situation but that's that.

Not sure if many of you remembered how the Projectile situation was handled back when it was being pushed back and forth from the CCP and us. What we decided to do was to get who we thought (and clearly could articulate the issues best) could make the best plan to solve low-sec. The five best were put on assembly hall and voted on. I'd like to do something similar this time, but a little different.

Unlike the Minmatar issue there really isn't that many people that are in an uproar over the current state of low-sec. This was probably because of the frustration that CSM 5 felt overall and that the participation on Mynxee's "Making Low-Sec Matter" project appeared to delay and fizzle. Therefore, I think the best approach is going to be slowly building up two or three plans while we work on getting the CSMs to stop thinking about 0.0 and start paying attention back to low-sec.

So, what I would like to see is your plans for fixing low-sec, e-mailed to me (Orakkus). If you send me your plan to fix low-sec, you will need to make sure (and be able to justify) certain things:

- Making Isk - Can all types of players make a reasonable amount of isk with these changes? How many varieties of isk-making are there? Is the risk/reward reasonable compared to a level 4 mission or what can be made during an hour of mining in a Hulk?

- PVP Combat - Does your plan impact this, and how so? If it improves combat, does it improve it for all? Does your change fit in with current mechanics? Will everyone in the game have to change how they do a particular task?

- Industrialists - How easy is it for a solo pilot to operate for long periods safely under this plan?

- Roleplay - Will Incarna be able to use what changes you propose?

What I would like to get from those interested in participating is both a Short Plan and a Long Plan. The Short plan would be things that should be easy to impliment, have no major change in game mechanics, but would greatly improve low-sec. (i.e. lower the sig radius of T2 haulers and Exhumers). The Long Plan should be a more detailed course of action where Low-sec becomes a unique place for both industrialists and PVP'ers can enjoy. For both of these, I would think it should take a few weeks to really ponder what would work and why.

I will then pick a team (from this thread) to go over each of the plans, to dwell and think on them, and to confirm whether a particular idea would work.. or not. Questions will be asked of those who submit items, so be prepared. As a group, we'll develop only three plans either whole plans or mixture of several plans to present to a selected group of the CSM as well as Mynxee. Once those are on board (with whatever changes might need to be made), then we will put all three plans up for a vote in the Assembly Hall. The Plan with the most votes will then be pushed to the CSM.

Then, when CCP ignores it.. that's when we rally, that's when its at the top of every response to the Developer's Blog, that's when it stays number one in the Assembly hall and the Speakers Corner, that's when we e-mail and start up conversations with CSMs and CCP daily.

Annoying? Yes. Effective? Absolutely. Remember the old adage: "The squeeky wheel gets the grease."

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.15 20:31:00 - [58]
 

And just so that they know, the ones I would like to have review these plans are:

Liang Nuren
Monger Man
Von Kroll
The Djego
Reima Antero
Vixisti
Durnin Stormbrow

I figure that with these people reviewing and making points (and hopefully they will submit plans of their own as well) that we can get the ball rolling on low-sec again.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.15 20:45:00 - [59]
 

Set up an in game mailing list. Out of game would work better I suppose... I actually check that at least once a day. Razz

-Liang

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.03.15 21:01:00 - [60]
 

Where are we on the 18 month countdown?
The timing seems about right. If we can detail a solid proposal that won't be a challenge to code or a manpower sink, we might be able to get something done.


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