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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:15:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 03/03/2011 23:55:08
NOTE: An excellent question was asked, which I replied to below, and felt should be a preamble to this post:

Originally by: Liang Nuren

What the hell are you talking about?



Of all modules that can be fit to a ship, Warp Disruptors and Scramblers dictate combat more than any other module. I am not saying that I think they should be removed, however given there has been a lot of discussion about how increase the number people participating in pvp, I thought I would make a thread saying what I though was the number one reason people do NOT participate, that being, no escape if you **** up.

Of all types of electronic warfare, the one constant is WD and WS, then if you have room, perhaps a web, or TD depending on your fit, however EVERY ship has a WD or WS if they are serious about pvp. Given the mandatory nature of the module, is it filling the role we(as a community) want it to fill? I don't have a solution, or I would offer one up in F&I, this thread is in discussion, as it was intended to be a discussion.

Back to the original thread.
In regards to how to improve participation in pvp in high, low and null space.

I know this sounds crazy, but if warp scramblers and disruptors were removed from eve, I think more people would pvp, why? because they'd think there was a chance to get away. In addition you'd need a way to follow someone who warped off ( a perfect ability for frigates), and no I don't mean scanning, I mean heart pounding, right click on space and track!

The you win or lose, period in pvp due to warp disruptors and scramblers really discourages pvp, don't get me wrong, I love them, but they do contribute strongly to the current state of pvp.

Best,
AG

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:20:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
because they'd think there was a chance to get away
And they'd be right. If by 'chance' you mean 'guarantee'.

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:20:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: sableye on 03/03/2011 15:24:19
Edited by: sableye on 03/03/2011 15:21:47
hardly anyone but a fool would lose a ship, bye bye eve economy.
I think what would increase it is aerna's we can fight in, frig on frig they scared todo it though in case it affects 0.0 pvp to much.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:23:00 - [4]
 

So, you mean, the only way to kill somebody was to alpha them out of existence before they can align and warp off ? Or you have to keep bumping them to prevent them from warping ? What kind of PvP is that anyway ?
No, thanks.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:28:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Akita T
So, you mean, the only way to kill somebody was to alpha them out of existence before they can align and warp off ? Or you have to keep bumping them to prevent them from warping ? What kind of PvP is that anyway ?
No, thanks.

Hey, nothing wrong with a bit of space humping. Laughing

Kieron VonDeux
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:37:00 - [6]
 

Just replace warp disruptors with sub-system targeting.

Give the ships' warpdrives a much smaller sig than the ships themselves and allow players to target and destroy them.
Smaller ships would be more effective at stopping other ships than ships of the same size.


Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:41:00 - [7]
 

Shocked

That's totally alienating.

Tychus Grim
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kieron VonDeux
Just replace warp disruptors with sub-system targeting.

Give the ships' warpdrives a much smaller sig than the ships themselves and allow players to target and destroy them.
Smaller ships would be more effective at stopping other ships than ships of the same size.




Could you go into detail w/ subsystem targeting? Do you mean targeting of just engines or do you mean targeting weapons.. shield generators.. ?

Kieron VonDeux
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:59:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tychus Grim
Could you go into detail w/ subsystem targeting? Do you mean targeting of just engines or do you mean targeting weapons.. shield generators.. ?


It's something the Devs suggested several years ago but haven't implemented yet.
It could be anything you suggested or the follwoing non-slot(hi/mid/low) related...

sub-light engines
warp-drive
jump-drive
targeting systems
capacitor
electronics
engineering

Damaging systems could make them less effective. IE; reducing navigation speed, slower warp speed, can't jump as far, not as much cap available, reduced fitting that offlines slots.

This is a mix of what I read in that past and some of my own ideas.

Lady Cazana
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:59:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Lady Cazana on 03/03/2011 16:59:28
who would die? and what will happen to those who live off tears?

Waylan Yutani
Gallente
Order of the Seraphim
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:24:00 - [11]
 

just make neuts turret based, kthx :)

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kieron VonDeux
Just replace warp disruptors with sub-system targeting.

Give the ships' warpdrives a much smaller sig than the ships themselves and allow players to target and destroy them.
Smaller ships would be more effective at stopping other ships than ships of the same size.




I could agree with that 100%

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:28:00 - [13]
 

No.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:31:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 03/03/2011 18:32:08
I am not suggesting that everyone simply be able to run away, there would have to obviously be other changes as well. Such as anyone involved in a combat can't dock or gate for X period of time, whether you fired or you did not. So your ability to run and stay moving would enhance you survival.

If you could jump into low sec, pick a fight and then run, although not become immune to pvp, then I think others would give it a shot.

Another possibility would be warp disruptors could allow subsytem targeting, but to grant 100% you're stuck and I kill you now really limits the type of pvp combat available.

Please understand I am not saying the warp disruptors or warp scramblers are broken, too powerful or any other such nonsense, just that their introduction shapes pvp more than any other module in the game, so should we revisit them? That is the point of this thread.

Originally by: Waylan Yutani
just make neuts turret based, kthx :)


Of this change I'd be 100% a fan.

Misstress Iteron
Antares Shipyards
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:34:00 - [15]
 

Well this would make pvp in a hauler an impossible taskNeutral

Conor Todaki
Pure Evil Warriors
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Kieron VonDeux
Originally by: Tychus Grim
Could you go into detail w/ subsystem targeting? Do you mean targeting of just engines or do you mean targeting weapons.. shield generators.. ?


It's something the Devs suggested several years ago but haven't implemented yet.
It could be anything you suggested or the follwoing non-slot(hi/mid/low) related...

sub-light engines
warp-drive
jump-drive
targeting systems
capacitor
electronics
engineering

Damaging systems could make them less effective. IE; reducing navigation speed, slower warp speed, can't jump as far, not as much cap available, reduced fitting that offlines slots.

This is a mix of what I read in that past and some of my own ideas.



+1

It'll add a diferent aspect to eve for sure.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.03 19:59:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kieron VonDeux
Originally by: Tychus Grim
Could you go into detail w/ subsystem targeting? Do you mean targeting of just engines or do you mean targeting weapons.. shield generators.. ?


It's something the Devs suggested several years ago but haven't implemented yet.
It could be anything you suggested or the follwoing non-slot(hi/mid/low) related...

sub-light engines
warp-drive
jump-drive
targeting systems
capacitor
electronics
engineering

Damaging systems could make them less effective. IE; reducing navigation speed, slower warp speed, can't jump as far, not as much cap available, reduced fitting that offlines slots.

This is a mix of what I read in that past and some of my own ideas.



oh oh oh oh I even know what we can call it!! Call it "Star Trek Online"!!

oh wait.... Confused

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:18:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Hello All,

I've started a new thread for this post as the other thread it was in is very engaged in another discussion:

In regards to how to improve pvp in high, low and null space.

I know this sounds crazy, but if warp scramblers and disruptors were removed from eve, I think more people would pvp, why? because they'd think there was a chance to get away. In addition you'd need a way to follow someone who warped off ( a perfect ability for frigates), and no I don't mean scanning, I mean heart pounding, right click on space and track!

The you win or lose, period in pvp due to warp disruptors and scramblers really discourages pvp, don't get me wrong, I love them, but they do contribute strongly to the current state of pvp.

Best,
AG


This was a bad idea the other times you posted it and it's a bad idea now. It has always been a bad idea, and it always will be a bad idea.

Qui Rune
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:25:00 - [19]
 

Here's my solution:

1.Reduce the Security Limitations of Bomb Launchers to be used from .4 to Null

2.Create a requirement for Fleet Battle Kills such as a minimum of 25 or 50 Solo Kills before you can get credit for Fleet Kills: This could encourage more 1v1 engagements.

3. Revamp High Sec:
a. 1.0 to 0.8 = Leave alone
b. .7 to .5 = Limited or No concord involvement with cruiser class to frigate class engagements. (BC+ will still get Concorded as usual)
c. 0.4 to Null = Leave alone

Just my 0.2 ISK

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:34:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Hello All,

I've started a new thread for this post as the other thread it was in is very engaged in another discussion:

In regards to how to improve pvp in high, low and null space.

I know this sounds crazy, but if warp scramblers and disruptors were removed from eve, I think more people would pvp, why? because they'd think there was a chance to get away. In addition you'd need a way to follow someone who warped off ( a perfect ability for frigates), and no I don't mean scanning, I mean heart pounding, right click on space and track!

The you win or lose, period in pvp due to warp disruptors and scramblers really discourages pvp, don't get me wrong, I love them, but they do contribute strongly to the current state of pvp.

Best,
AG


This was a bad idea the other times you posted it and it's a bad idea now. It has always been a bad idea, and it always will be a bad idea.

I appreciated your feedback last time, and I am happy you took the time to read again this time.

My primary issue with warp disruptors is that they govern the majority of pvp outside of a blob setting. If you're not within 24 km, you're not fighting for real. I would like to find an alternative way to have pvp while opening up the range and style of fights.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:35:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel

My primary issue with warp disruptors is that they govern the majority of pvp outside of a blob setting. If you're not within 24 km, you're not fighting for real. I would like to find an alternative way to have pvp while opening up the range and style of fights.



What the hell are you talking about?

-Liang

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:41:00 - [22]
 

Well we used to have warp core stabs - and fitting them was extremely common. The trouble being was that players got very frustrated by the inability to pin a ship down and execute a kills. Both Nanos and ECM had a similar effect at the height of their powers - a ship fleeing creates frustration for the pursuer, a sense that they've been cheated out of a kill.

With that in mind I wouldn't argue for a removal of scrams completely. That said the loss of these more defensive measures probably has gone too far in the opposite direction so there may be room for something else.

C.


Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:43:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Aessoroz on 03/03/2011 23:43:44
RISK FREE RATTING IN NULL! Also being able to rat in motherships as well.

Eyup Mi'duck
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:43:00 - [24]
 

Scramblerrs and disruptors, NO... leave them in the game as they are targetable pvp.

BUT you can get rid of the indiscriminate bubbles, they really do discourage pvp.

Grumpymunky
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:48:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
My primary issue with warp disruptors is that they govern the majority of pvp outside of a blob setting. If you're not within 24 km, you're not fighting for real. I would like to find an alternative way to have pvp while opening up the range and style of fights.

So give them a 24km falloff as well. Laughing

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:54:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel

My primary issue with warp disruptors is that they govern the majority of pvp outside of a blob setting. If you're not within 24 km, you're not fighting for real. I would like to find an alternative way to have pvp while opening up the range and style of fights.


What the hell are you talking about?



Of all modules that can be fit to a ship, Warp Disruptors and Scramblers dictate combat more than any other module. I am not saying that I think they should be removed, however given there has been a lot of discussion about how increase the number people participating in pvp, I thought I would make a thread saying what I though was the number one reason people do NOT participate, that being, no escape if you **** up.

Of all types of electronic warfare, the one constant is WD and WS, then if you have room, perhaps a web, or TD depending on your fit, however EVERY ship has a WD or WS if they are serious about pvp. Given the mandatory nature of the module, is it filling the role we(as a community) want it to fill? I don't have a solution, or I would offer one up in F&I, this thread is in discussion, as it was intended to be a discussion.

Best,
AG

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:00:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel

Of all modules that can be fit to a ship, Warp Disruptors and Scramblers dictate combat more than any other module. I am not saying that I think they should be removed, however given there has been a lot of discussion about how increase the number people participating in pvp, I thought I would make a thread saying what I though was the number one reason people do NOT participate, that being, no escape if you **** up.

Of all types of electronic warfare, the one constant is WD and WS, then if you have room, perhaps a web, or TD depending on your fit, however EVERY ship has a WD or WS if they are serious about pvp. Given the mandatory nature of the module, is it filling the role we(as a community) want it to fill? I don't have a solution, or I would offer one up in F&I, this thread is in discussion, as it was intended to be a discussion.

Best,
AG


There are many, many, many ways to disengage from combat already.

-Liang

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:07:00 - [28]
 

I agree that some ships have many ways to disengage in combat, however Caldari and Gallente have a hard time given their lack of speed. Both could field ECM drones or modules although that is definitely not common place, it should be without a GTFO module.


Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:13:00 - [29]
 

Once upon a time, CCP overhauled the Electronic Warfare system to the semi-chance based system we have now. Included in that overhaul were the warp scrambler and disruptor. The counter was to stack more engine warp stability with...you guessed it, warp care stabilizers! With no stabs, you had maybe a 1 in 4 chance of a cycle missing, and being able to escape. Most of us cheered the change..but as always, the whiners got out their waaambulance and trolled and rolled the forums so badly that CCP reversed the changes on these two modules only.

It's time to reapply that improvement.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:18:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
I agree that some ships have many ways to disengage in combat, however Caldari and Gallente have a hard time given their lack of speed. Both could field ECM drones or modules although that is definitely not common place, it should be without a GTFO module.



I strongly disagree that Caldari are limited in ways to disengage. Gallente, perhaps, but only because of the very nature of blasters. And honestly, I don't think that would be a big deal if blasters had strong advantages in that range.

-Liang


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