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Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:24:00 - [1]
 

I don't mean kills should be hard to find. The opportunity to get some should be plentiful, and they're not. Why?

Combat in EVE is, and always has been, far too fast. Making it painfully obvious 5 seconds into a fight who is going to lose engenders, aids, and abetts an "I'm always going to lose" attitude.

Consider a virtual slider that moves left or right depending on who, in say a 1v1 fight, is winning. In a good fight, that slider moves left and right frequently, sometimes far to one side, then far to the other until one side manages to shove it all the way to one side and wins. In EVE such a slider would go from the middle directly into being slammed to one side almost instantly. There's no granularity to combat outcome. There are few, if any, random factors aside from weapon damage. There is no way to turn the tide for a losing side except to...get this...HAVE MORE SHIPS COME HELP. (Sounds like the reason to blob to anyone? Anyone?)

EVE combat has been described as rochambeau (rock, paper, scissors), and that's very accurate. I've been here since late 2003, and I've kept hoping that combat would evolve into something more tactical, more like chess as opposed to rochambeau...

There's a very simple means to shift the entire attraction, sustainability, and enjoyment of PvP in EVE.

Push HP way up, push damage down, make escape *almost* impossible, and add random benefits or detriments system based on skills and skill levels. Expected result? 1v1s and small fleet PvP goes way up, blobbing goes down..some.

If I can engage something that might be bigger than me, and still have a chance to win, though hardly guaranteed, I *WILL* engage. I will take on 2-3 ships alone if I have a chance of winning. But if I'm going to face 1 ship and know there is no chance, not even 0.001%, to win..I generally won't bother, and I'm rather certain most everyone else would feel the same, though I beg your pardon if you don't and you feel I'm misrepresenting you. Further to this point, would you rather spend hours looking for targets, or instead spend that time killing them, albeit slowly? Dunno about you, but click->warp->click->warp->jump is a hell of a lot more boring than F1, F2, F3, F4...

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:31:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
Push HP way up
I was going to post this suggestion as a troll joke, but you beat me to it...

I Love Boobies
Amarr
All Hail Boobies
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:34:00 - [3]
 

Adding more HP has already been done. Remember the 50% buffs just about every ship received a few years back to prolong PvP encounters? It probably helped in someway to create the situation we find ourselves in now. I doubt another HP and damage nerf would make PvP any better since it's mostly blob warfare anyway these days.

People are unlikely to engage a target even if the things you want were implemented in game since most people will only fight if they have the clear advantage. Nothing with PvP will change unless things are drastically changed to combat blob warfare.

Cannibal Kane
Kane's Terrorist
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:36:00 - [4]
 

Your kidding right?

A fight can be one sided but then quickly turn against you.

I was happily tanking a drake with my active tank (CAP Booster Assisted)... wearing down it's shields. If you fought a properly fit ship you know it can take a good damn while to kill it. Anyway I was content with the fact that I was winning until my boosters ran out... and then your magic slider went from the far left to the far right.

Combat is situational...

Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:45:00 - [5]
 

I remember the HP boost years ago. I also remember the introduction of T2 weapons and ammo shortly after, among other damage boosts.

I agree, PvP is still situational in EVE, but not enough to combat the idea that if a frigate encounters a cruiser the cruiser is going to win every single time. Given that the cruiser in my theoretical example should win, at least a small chance the frigate could win would make that frigate pilot a bit more inclined to at least try or perhaps not just run as soon as possible.

Cannibal Kane
Kane's Terrorist
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:52:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
I remember the HP boost years ago. I also remember the introduction of T2 weapons and ammo shortly after, among other damage boosts.

I agree, PvP is still situational in EVE, but not enough to combat the idea that if a frigate encounters a cruiser the cruiser is going to win every single time. Given that the cruiser in my theoretical example should win, at least a small chance the frigate could win would make that frigate pilot a bit more inclined to at least try or perhaps not just run as soon as possible.


Killed Plenty of Cruiser with a frigate.. even some with a Bestower...

PVP in EvE is very situational, wondering what you target is going to use, what has he fitted and will you be able to kill his 2 year old @ss with my 4 months of skill training.

Love it...

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:28:00 - [7]
 

i think this all has more to do with the risk v reward aspect of PVP. I've suggested before that i think PvP should come with some higher reward - specifically small amount of extra SP for each kill. problem may become that people would just arbitrarily kill each other to boost their SP, yes. but to evade this i would place dimensioning returns after so many of the same player/corp within say a week.

however, i also think people who just pvp all o the time and then come whine about people not undocking and blobbing is just plain dumb. firstly, there's no amount of game mechanic that could solve this, short of forcing small groups of players into a system with no warpable objects... but that would take so many other aspects of pvp out of the equation that i doubt it would be very fun. aspects like not knowing if you could undock because the red in system is only in a frig - or even still knowing he;s only in a frig, but not knowing if he has friends in the next system waiting for you to take the bait. i could go on forever listing these kinds of heart pumping mechanics. and that is my second point - pvp SHOULD be heart pumping. it should not just be "oh look, i'm shooting!! weeeeeee" but a matter of doubting every decision you make, and dreading the consequences.

which, for that matter, CCP has pegged it.

Moreover, some days i'm just really not up for PVP - i just want to casually shoot some rats or get some BPs setup for production/items moved to a station to be sold... maybe i'm too tired, already about to pull my hair out due to RL and don;t want any more stress... whatever. but you dont see me complaining about non-consensual pvp.... because having that ever present risk is part of what makes this game awesome.

anything that would take away from that risk would, IMHO, ruin the game. so dont change the risk, just increase the reward. but simply giving isk wouldn't really work much as people could still be making more ratting/manuf/etc. instead. So, I still think the SP thing would be the best solution. it would provide players with a means to actively increase their SP, and a motivation for doing some pew pew. base the points on a spread - like BS = 10kSP, but is divided up by everyone in the killmail, and you've created a situation where players prefer small groups/solo.

William Walker
Amarr
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:28:00 - [8]
 

Great. Not only will I have to fly around for hours for our blob to finally meet resistance and when we do meet the other blob the fight takes hours on end to finish.

Siamese
Caldari
V0LTA
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:30:00 - [9]
 

finding pvp is easy..

dont give me that shiz.. just believe my son..

solo or small gang shiz is not dead, there are plenty of stupid people out there u can kill and plenty of people who want to fight..

look harder :D

gl

Kale Kold
Mindless Griefing
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:11:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
In EVE such a slider would go from the middle directly into being slammed to one side almost instantly. There's no granularity to combat outcome. There are few, if any, random factors aside from weapon damage.

Jesus, this is how all war is fought! This is how it should be! If you've planned accordingly you should decisively pwn the other combatants.

The main aim of war is to win! If you have a problem in winning a fight you have planned poorly or have been out-thought! No one, and i mean no one goes into a fair fight! Is just doesn't happen. The aim is pwnage, plain and simple. You want to destroy your enemies without loss.

No battle should be fair! Thats the way of war.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:27:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Kale Kold
Originally by: Genya Arikaido
In EVE such a slider would go from the middle directly into being slammed to one side almost instantly. There's no granularity to combat outcome. There are few, if any, random factors aside from weapon damage.

Jesus, this is how all war is fought! This is how it should be! If you've planned accordingly you should decisively pwn the other combatants.

The main aim of war is to win! If you have a problem in winning a fight you have planned poorly or have been out-thought! No one, and i mean no one goes into a fair fight! Is just doesn't happen. The aim is pwnage, plain and simple. You want to destroy your enemies without loss.

No battle should be fair! Thats the way of war.


This is a game we are playing, stop comparing it to war. Games are about fun not winning. Calm down with all that lamer talk.

Kale Kold
Mindless Griefing
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:16:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Kale Kold on 03/03/2011 15:18:08
Originally by: Diesel47
This is a game we are playing, stop comparing it to war. Games are about fun not winning.

Try telling that to the 0.0 alliances. I remember the first alliance talk given at fanfest by a BoB delegate. It was a full military briefing! IIRC the delegate was an ex-marine. To be successful in campaigns you have to apply real world tactics.

Why do you find it so hard to understand people PLAY to destroy you!!!

Goose99
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:04:00 - [13]
 

Bring back nano, gimp hp of caps by 95%, introduce damage mitigation on being shot by multiple ships.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:12:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
Push HP way up, push damage down, make escape *almost* impossible, and add random benefits or detriments system based on skills and skill levels. Expected result?
Massively increased blobs to overcome the increased kill times.

To get the results you expect (god knows why you expect them ugh) is to reduce HP and increase damage so that the backup cannot get there in time.

Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2011.03.03 17:00:00 - [15]
 

Nothing wrong with backup coming after the fight begins. The problem is finding fights to begin with. Instead of worrying over consequences of a fight during the fight, you do all the planning and worrying beforehand. The fight itself turns out to be rather boring.

BTW, obligatory "I do PvP and go solo hunting on my main" claim. I also lead small roams from time to time, as well as prosecute wars declared by and against my corporation. I get fights, but more often than not, despite being willing to try and engage on even terms, my targets run away.

I get what you guys are saying, I really do. EVE is immensely complex, and at times I'm rather certain that even CCP has trouble predicting what their "fixes" will truly accomplish. I'm trying out outline what I view as a long term flaw in EVE's PvP design, and explain what I feel would make PvP a lot more rewarding for me and others I've discussed this with. I know my half-assed solution is just that, half-assed, thus I brought the topic out for discussion. If you too are sick of trying to find fights, not cheap kills, but fun and thrilling battles that you remember and tell tales of, please, more feedback! CCP *DOES* read the forums. They DO care what we think, even if they don't always seem to or seem capable of making the changes we want.

Let's lay out all that's wrong with PvP and see what CCP thinks. Maybe if we talk about it (Yeah, I know..EVE GD), maybe we or CCP can figure out how to quantify the problem correctly and design a system that provides a solution.

Doctor Noam Chomsky
Posted - 2011.03.03 17:11:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
I remember the HP boost years ago. I also remember the introduction of T2 weapons and ammo shortly after, among other damage boosts.

I agree, PvP is still situational in EVE, but not enough to combat the idea that if a frigate encounters a cruiser the cruiser is going to win every single time. Given that the cruiser in my theoretical example should win, at least a small chance the frigate could win would make that frigate pilot a bit more inclined to at least try or perhaps not just run as soon as possible.


I don't think you DO remember, as the hp boost came with a t2 ammo NERF as well.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.03.03 17:47:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 03/03/2011 17:51:56
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 03/03/2011 17:48:30



How about make isk easier to earn and stop nerfing stuff? Then people would risk stuff,plain and simple.

But omg nooo theres too much isk in the game!Yeah and to many people sitting on it doing nothing too.Give us 50 mill per lvl 4 mission and look at the carebears goRazzId go run a mission or two,fit a few ships and go at it.

Edit 1:But to mission a whole day for a 1 min loss..no thanks.I don't know about you but I sure as hell have better things to do with my time.

Edit 2:Oh on second thought this idea would take away the tears that come with a loss and half of the losers would quit so that wont workRolling Eyes

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.03.03 17:50:00 - [18]
 

Why would anyone want to engage in a battle unless the odds are stacked in their favour? If you want arena combat go set up a tournament in high sec with some friends.

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.03.03 17:53:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: HeIIfire11
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 03/03/2011 17:48:30
How about make isk easier to earn and stop nerfing stuff? Then people would risk stuff,plain and simple.

But omg nooo theres too much isk in the game!Yeah and to many people sitting on it doing nothing too.Give us 50 mill per lvl 4 mission and look at the carebears goRazzId go run a mission or two,fit a few ships and go at it.

But to mission a whole day for a 1 min loss..no thanks.I don't know about you but I sure as hell have better things to do with my time.


If you increase the amount of isk given by missions then all of the ship/module prices will increase to compensate by action of the free market.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:46:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Brannoncyll
Why would anyone want to engage in a battle unless the odds are stacked in their favour?


Because if you already know the outcome - why bother? If, instead, there is an element of competition, pitting of wits, a challenge then the victory is more meaningful and potentially more satisfying as a result.

C.


Genya Arikaido
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:06:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Genya Arikaido on 04/03/2011 00:06:09
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Thank you. This is exactly what I'm after. Very Happy

Rhah Kaundur
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:20:00 - [22]
 

Why not set base hull point higher and hull resists to 60%-70% for all ships. Then once you start taking damage to hull then the damage bleeds over to modules or even knocking out propulsion or even capacitor. The ship can then be abandoned to be captured by the enemy, who can then board/remote hull rep or scoop up in a ship bay.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.03.04 01:39:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Doddy on 04/03/2011 01:51:25

Originally by: Genya Arikaido
I remember the HP boost years ago. I also remember the introduction of T2 weapons and ammo shortly after, among other damage boosts.




You remember badly my freind, hp boost was long after t2 was introduced. Part of the reason for the hp buff was the 200km range alpha sniper pirates one shotting everything (long range t2 ammo was crazy back then). Also there have been far more tanking boosts than damage boosts since then, this is generally considered one of the reasons behind the supposed death of solo/small gang pvp. If any target you find can just sit and tank until help arrives it quickly becomes boring.

If you don't know what i am on about with tanking boosts then consider the introduction of the tier 2 battlecruisers (lol drake and lol myrm), all the tier 3 battleships , all t3 ships, boosters (25% wtf), overloading (only partially countered by weapon overloading), nos nerf (can't break tanks as easily), web nerf (more dps lost to tracking nowadays than back in double webs = 99% speed loss days) logistics boost, triage, rigs, supercaps massive hp buff, other caps hp buff, marauders, t2 damage controls.

Pretty much the only real damage boost i can think of is the torp changes and the faction ship boosts.

As an aside if you think frigs always get killed by cruisers you are not playing the same game as me.

If you think fights are over too quick now i would hate to see what you would think of eve in its original form - none of the above, no hp boost, no stacking penalty on damage mods Cool

Igualmentedos
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.04 01:54:00 - [24]
 

When I think of EvE PvP, I think of a game of cat and mouse. The bar should start when the predator starts stalking the prey, and slide back and forth depending on who gains the upper hand. IMO most engagements are predetermined so the real fun is trying to out maneuver your opponent, or trick them (like having a cloaked falcon backing you up). The adrenaline rush before a fight is infinitely better than the actual fight.

Fights in EvE aren't very exciting, but taking on an opponent and not entirely knowing the outcome is. I think this is why gate camps are total ****. You know you're screwed, and the most enjoyable part of PvP is stripped away. There is no stalking, no game of wits, and it boils down to approach gate or align and pray.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.04 03:47:00 - [25]
 

There is one reason and one reason only for why 'finding' pvp in Eve is harder than many other games.

Pain.

In Eve, it hurts to die (unless flying trash ships, but I don't think thats what the OP wants to kill...)

Pain is Eve's Blessing
Pain is Eve's Curse

Pain makes Eve what it is. Everything else flows from it. Take it away, and folks will be much more willing to stand outside Orgrimmer,.... I mean Jita.... and and 'pvp' all day.

As long as Eve is painful, folks will put a lot of effort into not dying. That is just the nature of things.

Removing pain from Eve is a REALLY bad idea.

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.03.04 04:19:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Brannoncyll
Why would anyone want to engage in a battle unless the odds are stacked in their favour?


Because if you already know the outcome - why bother? If, instead, there is an element of competition, pitting of wits, a challenge then the victory is more meaningful and potentially more satisfying as a result.

C.




As others have stated the reason EvE PvP only really occurs when there is a safe victory is that it costs time and effort to replace your ship if you lose. To most people the satisfaction of 'losing honourably' is outweighed by the fact that it has cost them time and effort. Again I say that if you want a 'fair competition' go set up a high sec tournament with your friends, or go play counterstrike or WOW arenas where all the fights are staged and even-sided.

Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2011.03.04 04:26:00 - [27]
 

I thought rochambeau was when people kicked each other in the nuts until someone fell over, definitely what Eve is like and not just with the ships fighting Razz

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.03.04 04:39:00 - [28]
 

Problem with the above is in one breath you say "Eve PvP is all about inflicting the pain, is cat and mouse, is not supposed to be fair," and in the next you ***** about carebears leaving corps when you wardec them, no one in lowsec, and all 0.0 blue.

If you want PvP to hurt, you have to expect that people will treat it like things that hurt, and avoid it.

Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
Posted - 2011.03.04 06:46:00 - [29]
 

Yes, just what is game needs is more HP. Rolling Eyes

Do you even pvp outside of blobs? This would make fighting incredibly boring and predictable. Also, it already takes minutes to kill a non ******ed BS in a frig. You saying that it taking 15 minutes would be more fun? Really?

We got too much freaking HP as it is.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.03.04 07:06:00 - [30]
 


I have a couple of thoughts based on my Eve PvP career. I typically fight in small fleets and/or solo and I luv it!

I personally believe increasing HP is NOT the solution. In my experience most solo fights are over within 25-75s, and most small fleet fights are over within 2-8 minutes. Increasing this time limit will only allow for backup to arrive, and thereby increase the blob. And from a personal perspective, when I'm soloing a vaga, drake, or raven in my rifter, I don't want them to have even moooooorrreeee time to get backup!!!

The truth is most PvP that I experience happens for two reasons:

1.) Someone gets caught with their pants down... This typically results when you hunt or trap some unprepared or careless target, and proceed to gank it.
2.) Someone things they have the upper hand. This typically involves my opponent underestimating the ship I'm in (playing the underdog allows for more fights), or me overestimating the ship I'm in!

Even fights happen, but are not very common. That's because people can deny fights very easily in this game. This is a game of rock, paper, scissors, and when your playing rock, your going to avoid paper, or your going to bring scissors along with you.

And as for your "its painfully obvious who's going to win w/in 5s"... this is only true in 30% of the fights. Ewar, Logistics, and tactics often turn fights back and forth! If you always know w/in 5s of the start of a fight who's going to win, and that someone isn't you, your doing something wrong!

I think an incentive to encourage small scale and solo pvp would be awesome, but I'm not sure how to do it. I've been wondering if you could submit the Battle report to some agent for a reward based on ship types and numbers involved. The reward would have to be proportionate to the ships destroyed to prevent abuse, and it would have to be something desired by your typical pvp'er (faction pvp mods, boosters, sps, etc). Battle reports aren't generated by eve so how they'd be submitted to an agent seems rather difficult.



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