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MinHui
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:41:00 - [1]
 

hello fellas,


i ve got a question. If i want to use for example T2 Large Railguns, i need to bring the following skills in front of that:

Small Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 1)
Small Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 3)
Medium Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 5)
Medium Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 5)
Large Railguns V (Rank 5)
Large Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 8)
Sharphsooter V
Gunnery V (Rank 1)

Summary 5x lvl 5 Skills, 3x lvl 4 Skills

(i didnt list up the skills like motion prediction that u hit a target ;).... so far there are enough needed support skills)


at the other site i got the Missile Launcher user, wich one is using Cruise Missile T2 (Including High Damage and High Precission Ammo):

Cruise Missile Specialization I (Rank8)
Missile Launcher Operation V (Rank 1)
Cruise Missiles V (Rank 5)
Heavy Missiles III (Rank 3)
Standard Missiles III (Rank 2)

Summary 1x lvl 1 Skill, 2x lvl 5 Skills, 2x lvl3 Skills


My Question is where is the reason for that big difference? I didnt calculate the difference in time, but i think there are months between. Is this fair to new players? is there a work around? What do you guys think about that topic?

Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:55:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mona X on 02/03/2011 22:55:12
Originally by: MinHui

My Question is where is the reason for that big difference?


Turrets are not missiles.

Originally by: MinHui

Is this fair to new players?


Yes.

Originally by: MinHui

is there a work around?


Don't train large hybrids. They suck.

Originally by: MinHui
What do you guys think about that topic?


If I'll see another one, I'm going postal.

JennaHui
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:57:00 - [3]
 

i ve got nearly 8mio in SP including large arty and hybrid t2....


and yes missiles are not turrets, but still a weapon to use...

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:10:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mona X
Originally by: MinHui
What do you guys think about that topic?


If I'll see another one, I'm going postal.


It's been like, I don't know, a few weeks by now. Hasn't it?

CraigGamerPsycho
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:27:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: CraigGamerPsycho on 02/03/2011 23:28:49
Originally by: MinHui
hello fellas, i ve got a question. If i want to use for example T2 Large Railguns, i need to bring the following skills in front of that: Small Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 1) Small Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 3) Medium Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 5) Medium Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 5) Large Railguns V (Rank 5) Large Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 8) Sharphsooter V Gunnery V (Rank 1) Summary 5x lvl 5 Skills, 3x lvl 4 Skills (i didnt list up the skills like motion prediction that u hit a target ;).... so far there are enough needed support skills) at the other site i got the Missile Launcher user, wich one is using Cruise Missile T2 (Including High Damage and High Precission Ammo): Cruise Missile Specialization I (Rank8) Missile Launcher Operation V (Rank 1) Cruise Missiles V (Rank 5) Heavy Missiles III (Rank 3) Standard Missiles III (Rank 2) Summary 1x lvl 1 Skill, 2x lvl 5 Skills, 2x lvl3 Skills My Question is where is the reason for that big difference? I didnt calculate the difference in time, but i think there are months between. Is this fair to new players? is there a work around? What do you guys think about that topic?
This is the same with every other race (artys, lasers and rails) where you have to go through the same long process....except missiles ofc. My opinion is that this is more proof that some caldari ships are broken in terms of balance. With ppl with 2-3 mil sp able to get into level 4 with a Drake while another Amarr character with all V's would die in a fully kitted Harbinger on 99% of those same level 4's. Theres some clear inbalance issues there imo.

Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:27:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Mona X on 02/03/2011 23:28:15
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: Mona X
Originally by: MinHui
What do you guys think about that topic?


If I'll see another one, I'm going postal.


It's been like, I don't know, a few weeks by now. Hasn't it?


Yes, but I have new pills now.

Misanthra
Posted - 2011.03.03 01:26:00 - [7]
 

How quick missile trains catch up to longer gun trains.

Option A. You want to go pvp. Your corp, like 99.999999% of eve will tell you to park that pos raven and get a rokh. PVe trains quick for missiles...wnat pvp, relearn guns. Want to bypass this, train to fly jam scorpions (and know how to jam, protip: don't jam primaries in blob warfare....they are dead anyway).


Option B. basic math time. We will assume support skills for all t2 in place. And about the same times to train.

Player A: Wants Arty/AC cane all in one build
14 days medium projectiles.
6 days (guessing this...too lazy to evemon it) AC spec 4
6 days (again guessing) Arty spec 4
5 days small proctiles
4 days ac spec
4 days arty spec
Total 39 days

Player B: wants HAM and HML drake
14 days HAM
14 days HML
5.5 days ish HAM spec 4
5.5 ish days HML spec 4
About 38-39 days.

Comes out the same you say. You would be right. But....Welcome to wonderful of missiles...and the secret to why caldari got jams for thier e-war race pick. tack on about 16+ days for the e-war training to run t2 tp with falloff range and performance that doesn't suck.

Guns got webs...train t2 propulsion disruption and you are done. Like 4 days. This if motivated to run webs...BC and BS, gets to be optional on gun boats since not many things in that 10km range beside frigates which drones kill (blasterthron an exception maybe...that kills everything in this range).


Drake (and raven) pilot....has the tp skill, 4 days to t2. has 3 skills that affect its range, level 4 is about 4 days at least on all of them. 16 days more training.

Missiles need tp, especially at bs and bc level. Rigors help but rigors are not a rig you want showing up in your pvp drake killmail, pve fit to taste and all good. Also don't work with torps or hams if running them.

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.03.03 01:59:00 - [8]
 

Firstly: Missiles are not Guns are not Missiles.

Support skills aside, for training small hybrid turrets V, you get acces to both rails and blasters. For training rockets V, you get rockets. If you want standard missiles as well, you've then got to train another skill to V.

If you train medium hybrid weapons V, you get medium blasters and medium rails. If you train Heavy Missiles V, you get heavy missiles. If you want Heavy Assault Missiles, you then get to train Heavy Assault Missiles to V.

Would you prefer to have to train rockets, standards, heavies, HAMs and cruise missiles just to get torps to put on your stealth bombers?

Yes you have to train them in order for guns, but you also have alot less training time if you want all those weapons. If you want to train missiles you are effectively having to train twice as many level V skills to get them all.

Total level 5 skills to get all Laser weapons: 3
Total level 5 skills to get all missile weapons: 6

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.03.03 06:09:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Baneken on 03/03/2011 06:10:09
For gunnery you need all previous tiers to V for specialisation so for instance large pulse laser spec requires you to have motion prediction V, small & medium & large energy turrets V, small & medium pulse laser specs to IV.
And for T2 beams; same deal but swap motion prediction for sharp shooter V.

Why it looks so good for missiles is the simple fact that if you only need say T2 torps then you just train t2 torps and ignore the rest which isn't possible with gunnery skills.
This also means that you can have T2 missiles and still suck balls as far as missile damage is concerned which isn't possible with gunnery since you have to train all previous skills and supports first.

Ultimately it takes the same time with both weapon systems to reach peak performance but with missiles you can cherry pick your training.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.03.03 11:26:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Baneken
Ultimately it takes the same time with both weapon systems to reach peak performance but with missiles you can cherry pick your training.



Actually, the missile skill tree is much longer than a turret one, with the further drawback that it contains no transferable skills such as Surgical Strike. But, as you say, in return, the missile tree can be started at different points. Smile

Valdenmar
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:01:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Valdenmar on 03/03/2011 13:01:45
Originally by: Paikis
Total level 5 skills to get all Laser weapons: 3
Total level 5 skills to get all missile weapons: 6


Well, you haven't counted the prereqs here, for large T2 lazors you need gunnery, motion prediction & sharpshooter to V so it's actually:

Total level 5 skills to get all T2 Laser weapons: 6
Total level 5 skills to get all T2 missile weapons: 6

Oh look...it's the same number of level V skills req'd Neutral

(Edited for clarity)

Mona X
Caldari
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:08:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Valdenmar

Total level 5 skills to get all T2 Laser weapons: 6
Total level 5 skills to get all T2 missile weapons: 6

Oh look...it's the same number of level V skills req'd Neutral



Cruise spec reqs missile launcher 5, so it's 6:7. :P

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.03 15:20:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: MinHui
My Question is where is the reason for that big difference?

The difference isn't that much once you got all the turret and missile support skills at 5.

Gunnery support ranks: 2+2+2+2+4+5=17
Missiles support ranks: 5+2+4+2+2+5=20

Now as to the reason why it is so different, back when EVE was launched missiles were supposed to be support weapons just like drones while the turrets were supposed to be the primary weapon type.

Sable Moran
Gallente
Moran Light Industries
Posted - 2011.03.03 18:08:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: MinHui
My Question is where is the reason for that big difference?


The difference isn't that big at all, all considered.

Originally by: MinHui
Is this fair to new players?


Pray tell where in the eve documentation (such as it is) it says that eve is supposed to be fair by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally by: MinHui
is there a work around?


Since there is no problem here there is no need for a work around.

Originally by: MinHui
What do you guys think about that topic?


I think you whine too much.

JennaHui
Posted - 2011.03.03 19:42:00 - [15]
 

i man not whining my grand :)...


i can use t2 largy projectile and also t2 cruise, its not about whining i just wonna know where the reason is for those different skill times :P

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:05:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: MinHui
hello fellas,


i ve got a question. If i want to use for example T2 Large Railguns, i need to bring the following skills in front of that:

Small Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 1)
Small Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 3)
Medium Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 5)
Medium Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 5)
Large Railguns V (Rank 5)
Large Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 8)
Sharphsooter V
Gunnery V (Rank 1)

Summary 5x lvl 5 Skills, 3x lvl 4 Skills

(i didnt list up the skills like motion prediction that u hit a target ;).... so far there are enough needed support skills)


at the other site i got the Missile Launcher user, wich one is using Cruise Missile T2 (Including High Damage and High Precission Ammo):

Cruise Missile Specialization I (Rank8)
Missile Launcher Operation V (Rank 1)
Cruise Missiles V (Rank 5)
Heavy Missiles III (Rank 3)
Standard Missiles III (Rank 2)

Summary 1x lvl 1 Skill, 2x lvl 5 Skills, 2x lvl3 Skills


My Question is where is the reason for that big difference? I didnt calculate the difference in time, but i think there are months between. Is this fair to new players? is there a work around? What do you guys think about that topic?


Do you want the RP/Lore explanation, or the game balance explanation?

Misanthra
Posted - 2011.03.03 23:42:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Misanthra on 03/03/2011 23:43:16
Originally by: JennaHui
i man not whining my grand :)...


i can use t2 largy projectile and also t2 cruise, its not about whining i just wonna know where the reason is for those different skill times :P


Guns aren't missiles, missiles aren't guns.

Like I said above it lets other races get in decent sb's faster.

Also...its a trap by ccp. Trap is for idiot missile runners. Gun path lays out idiot proof style supports skills to work them well. Arty snipe in your case...you getting the range skill learned, don't pass go, don't collect 200 dollars till you have it. AC'ing it, ccp nice enough to force motion prediction. PITA...but nice.

A missile runner could power level to t2 cruise missile in no time compared to your arty, true. They will have crap/no target navigation. ANd crap/no guided missile precision since not needed for the progression. then they will wonder why even charons are speed tanking damage and not hitting for decent dps lol.


My take on the difference is ccp is makine missiles easier...but easier to make less useful at the same time. Have trained guns as well (up to t2 rails on rokh, up to medium t2 arty/ac in a minny x-train) its actually nice they hook you up like this. Also nice in eft you can see the results of the trains to work out the optional 5's to see if worth trainin (or see the required 5's are actually very nice to have). Missile runner...hlaf of your 5's you don't know what will happen till you get them (explosion velocity and radius not a plug and play number, dramiel bit faster than a megathron lol).


Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.03.04 10:27:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: JennaHui
i just wonna know where the reason is for those different skill times :P

The devs made it different so you could get a reason to create this thread 8 years later, something that never ever has been posted before btw. Shocked

Zoom Sanna
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:00:00 - [19]
 

I read the forums fairly regularly so I wondered what had got the sensitive flowers into such a panty-twist about this being a frequently asked question. So I did some digging back through forum history in the Skills channel. I found myself back in 2010 without seeing any other threads on this topic.

So if our sensitive flowers can untwist their panties for a moment perhaps they could link one of these terribly common threads on this topic? I am very interested to read what our forebears have written on the topic since it is interesting to me.

I did some work in Evemon just now and the main difference between t2 guns and missile training time doesn't seem to be in the support skills but in the lvl5 requirements for the smaller weapons.

The below is for a character with no significant weapon training at the beginning, and +3 implants only. His attributes are mainly oriented toward industry.

For t2 large rails I get something like a 79 day queue. 29 skills in total, 8 unique.

14 days is medium hybrid turret 5. Is this a significant boost for someone piloting a Rokh? I doubt it. Then about 5 days for Med railgun spec, also not so useful in a BS. Small hybrid turret for 5 days too and small railgun spec maybe 3 days. Sharpshooter 5 at about 10 days is the only support skill I can see there which is useful to someone in a BS using large railguns.

For t2 cruise I get 36 days and people are quite correct that this includes zero support skills. However the requirements for those missile systems you are NOT going to fit on a BS are only lvl3 (standard missiles and heavy missiles). 17 skill in total, 5 unique.

I think the main difference in training time between t2 large rails and t2 cruise is in weapon skills which are of no relevence when one is actually IN a battleship.

Only 10 days of the differential is actually a skill thats relevent to the BS pilot.

Or are people saying that when one is at the 'level of play' to be in a BS fielding large railguns then having great skill in small and medium railguns is highly relevant?

Thank you for your time :)

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Zoom Sanna
I read the forums fairly regularly so I wondered what had got the sensitive flowers into such a panty-twist about this being a frequently asked question. So I did some digging back through forum history in the Skills channel. I found myself back in 2010 without seeing any other threads on this topic.

So if our sensitive flowers can untwist their panties for a moment perhaps they could link one of these terribly common threads on this topic? I am very interested to read what our forebears have written on the topic since it is interesting to me.

An example I found quickly:
Speaking of that, why is it that way...

Estel Arador
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:42:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 08/03/2011 21:52:59
Also don't think is something from the last year or so. Here's a thread from 2007: Tech 2 Missile Skills VS Tech 2 Turret Skills

And here is someone predicting the differences shortly after the launch of EVE.


Just some random other results:
T2 Large and Medium Turret learning time, compared to T2 Missiles
Disparity in T2 skills
Turret v Missile specializations borked
And I didn't use a particularly good search query either (didn't include "tech" in it for example).

Zoom Sanna
Posted - 2011.03.08 21:53:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander

An example I found quickly:
Speaking of that, why is it that way...


Thank you, flower. I was foolishly only scanning topic titles.

But it is from May 2010 so it doesn't seem to be such a common topic as to make any but the most neurotic cringe whenever it comes up Laughing

And reading that thread I don't buy the arguments as to why its a reasonable discrepancy.

The only thing I can think of is that the skillpoint difference means that the t2 missile user can (potentially) buy a large amount of support skills for missiles compared to the t2 gun user and that the missile user NEEDS those support skills for missiles.

The argument that:

Quote:
Now say both chars can use t2 large, and decide, Hey! im going to fly a cruiser now.

Who is going to get into one sooner, the one with Heavy/Heavy Assault skill at 0 or the one that CAN ALREADY USE EVERY SIZE GUN.
(btw the quoted post is slightly wrong; to have t2 cruise you have to have heavy missile at 3 not 0).

It just makes no sense to me. The t2 gun user is FORCED into diversification whereas the t2 missile user can focus more?

The t2 gun user is forced to be good in frigates and cruisers/battlecruisers whereas the t2 missile user can choose to focus on, eg, battleship missiles. So gunners are supposed to be jack'o'trades? Does this make sense in terms of lore or something?

Or maybe I'm overanalysing and its just an oversight on the designers part.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:19:00 - [23]
 


Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:33:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Zoom Sanna
Originally by: Tau Cabalander

An example I found quickly:
Speaking of that, why is it that way...


Thank you, flower. I was foolishly only scanning topic titles.

But it is from May 2010 so it doesn't seem to be such a common topic as to make any but the most neurotic cringe whenever it comes up Laughing

I only searched threads I posted in. I don't post in every single thread... it just seems like that sometimes. Laughing

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:38:00 - [25]
 

Just train for all weapons and it makes no difference anyway. Very Happy

Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.08 22:57:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CraigGamerPsycho
Edited by: CraigGamerPsycho on 02/03/2011 23:28:49
Originally by: MinHui
hello fellas,


i ve got a question. If i want to use for example T2 Large Railguns, i need to bring the following skills in front of that:

Small Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 1)
Small Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 3)
Medium Hybrid Turrets V (Rank 5)
Medium Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 5)
Large Railguns V (Rank 5)
Large Railgun Specialization IV (Rank 8)
Sharphsooter V
Gunnery V (Rank 1)

Summary 5x lvl 5 Skills, 3x lvl 4 Skills

(i didnt list up the skills like motion prediction that u hit a target ;).... so far there are enough needed support skills)


at the other site i got the Missile Launcher user, wich one is using Cruise Missile T2 (Including High Damage and High Precission Ammo):

Cruise Missile Specialization I (Rank8)
Missile Launcher Operation V (Rank 1)
Cruise Missiles V (Rank 5)
Heavy Missiles III (Rank 3)
Standard Missiles III (Rank 2)

Summary 1x lvl 1 Skill, 2x lvl 5 Skills, 2x lvl3 Skills


My Question is where is the reason for that big difference? I didnt calculate the difference in time, but i think there are months between. Is this fair to new players? is there a work around? What do you guys think about that topic?


This is the same with every other race (artys, lasers and rails) where you have to go through the same long process....except missiles ofc. My opinion is that this is more proof that some caldari ships are broken in terms of balance. With ppl with 2-3 mil sp able to get into level 4 with a Drake while another Amarr character with all V's would die in a fully kitted Harbinger on 99% of those same level 4's. Theres some clear inbalance issues there imo.

What is this I don't even wtf

Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.08 23:05:00 - [27]
 

I still dont get this.

Why is this topic coming up so often. Dont the people get that by the time you get t2 large guns you have all sizes weapon systems at t2 with decent support skills trained?

Missiles take longer to get good at then guns. Just to be competitive you NEED all the supports skills for missiles at 5. Rolling Eyes

Zoom Sanna
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:45:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Pod Amarr
I still dont get this.

Why is this topic coming up so often. Dont the people get that by the time you get t2 large guns you have all sizes weapon systems at t2 with decent support skills trained?

Missiles take longer to get good at then guns. Just to be competitive you NEED all the supports skills for missiles at 5. Rolling Eyes


'Often'? The last thread I've seen was from May 2010 and before that 2006. is that 'often' to you? If you have more recent and more frequent threads in mind I'd love to see them, its an interesting topic for me as it relates to game design, game history, pve vs pvp etc.

Zoom Sanna
Posted - 2011.03.09 10:57:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador
Since you're interesting in the subject, here are some more threads:

Tech II large guns, why so harsh?
Comparing T2 Large Guns vs T2 Cruise Training times.
T2 Turret training sucks


Thanks for that. I read through those threads.

The impression I have so far is that this relates to pve vs pvp; CCP present us with the missile boat as the pve weapon system of choice. Players who want to quickly get into the game and run missions can head to the Raven and t2 launchers and get the feeling that they are progressing rapidly. If they do rush into Raven plus t2 launchers they will, in fact, not be so great as they won't have the support skills but they *will* have t2 launchers fitted on their ships. Mind you, even just lvl3 in the missile support skills is a major step up and doesn't take much time.

A dedicated mission runner who heads for t2 large guns is going to take a lot longer to get there; CCP have *incentivised* missiles for mission running and created a disincentive for guns for such players. Plus theres a long history of npc AI not coping with missiles so well and a longstanding perception of missiles as the best pve weapon choice.

Note that I am talking here about single-minded players who want nothing but to run missions. Theres ZERO advantage for these players to be able to fit all the t2 weapon systems BELOW the battleship level (ie t2 standard missiles, t2 heavy missiles or t2 small and t2 medium guns). Once they get into a battlship they are only RARELY getting out of it (to run low level missions for a new corp and for these missions t2 guns are arguably overkill).

In pvp by contrast there is frequently a need for a player to be more flexible in terms of what ship they get into due to FC requirements etc. The requirements on t2 guns seem to support this. If you have someone on your team who can use t2 guns you know they can almost certainly fly a BS, BC, Cruiser, destroyer and frigate with t2 guns as well.

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.03.10 22:38:00 - [30]
 

Lets think about what would be required (and the consequences) of changing the missile tree to look/behave like the gunnery trees.
Delete all Missile skills. Set up a tree like the gunnery trees (same skill modifiers and layout as gunnery). Allow people to respend their launcher SP in the new launcher tree (no, you can't spend them elsewhere).
Then missiles will be like gunnery, and no one can cry foul. We no longer have these pointless threads every few months. Instead we get QQ threads about how long it takes to train torps for stealth bombers, and 'why do I have to train rockets, HAMs, SMLs and HMLs before I can fly a stealth bomber? I don't even want to use those missiles.' Also, alot of people will ***** about the change because where before they had T2 cruise missiles (or torps) for their missions boat, they now have only about 15% of the SP needed to use those weapon systems. Fully half of the SB pilots in eve will now be unable to arm their bombers. People will rage quit, people will whine about it.

CCP will lose subscriptions, not really change anything, **** off their customer base, and get even more whine threads. Why don't they do it? Why on earth WOULD they do it?


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