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AndreaMena
Minmatar
Tanuki Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:14:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: AndreaMena on 02/03/2011 14:26:31
Greetings MD :)

I am pretty much a very unknown person around here except for some folks I talk to in the Trader's Academy and SCC Lounge. I just started station trading a few weeks ago and still waiting for the month to end so that I can post some kind of summary for the elite to review so I can get constructive feedback about my performance. I took up trading as my real life currently got very busy (final year @ uni) so I cannot spend all that time online that I wish to pew pew on my main account :).

Anyways. Long story short. I was thinking that at the end of the month I would restart the next month with the same amount of ISK I did in the beginning, and transfer the total earned ISK (monthly profit) to my corp wallet. However it did struck me that sleeping money is really no good so I was thinking about small start up business opportunities I could take up.

One of the things that I am sure of that the player base is needing is the ability to have micro loans (100-500Mil perhaps?) to finance whatever project they want. It can be a pimped out mission ship. . .or that new shiny toy. . .whatever. As long as they are under the 1Bil mark.

However this is a problem that I myself ran into. . .most people needing loans or investments do not have the collateral to back their investment/loaned amount up. Even if they did I find it silly to request a loan when you can sell some assets and get whatever you want since there is less risk of being scammed that way.

So assuming I want to start some sort of company that deals with these kind of people. . .loaning out money to people that do not have enough or no collateral at all. . How would it be safe for me to set up such a thing? And would it even make sense to propose such a thing?

Discuss :)

Estel Arador
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:27:00 - [2]
 

Every previous venture trying such a thing failed miserably.
110% collateral has become the standard for loans for a reason.


I'm wondering why you would set your profits aside, instead of just using them for more trading?

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:55:00 - [3]
 

currently am working on applying trust/distrust propagation to create an "eve credit score."

is it possible? i wager not. would it be really cool if it worked? yes. why? because then businesses like yours would 'work.'

basic structure is belief +/- disbelief +/- uncertainty >/= 1

the question is what measurable variables can be taken from any given character's public records to this effect and how should they be weighted?

possible belief factors
1) account age
2) "reputable" references
3) partial or full api disclosure
4) development of proper business plan

possible uncertainty factors
1) ability to make isk
2) previous loans/payment history
3) collateral supplied (effectively the 110% rule here forces the equation but the assumption is there ARE other balance points)

message me if interested in discussing or post more factors/potential weighting

AndreaMena
Minmatar
Tanuki Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:05:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: AndreaMena on 02/03/2011 15:08:33
Originally by: Estel Arador
Every previous venture trying such a thing failed miserably.
110% collateral has become the standard for loans for a reason.


I'm wondering why you would set your profits aside, instead of just using them for more trading?


I am not sure yet if it is a wise idea to always work with more and more money. Basically I am starting to find it hard to always keep all my ISK invested and/or make good profit. Now its either due to inexperience and it will solve itself with time or I just need to find alternative areas to trade in and repeat my same technique.

Another thing worthy of note is that I really do not spend much time working with orders. There is maybe 1 day a week were I can stay online more than a couple of hours. Other days I just login. . .arrange prices. . .logout. . .do this in the morning. . around midday and in the evening. In the evening I then setup the new buy orders.

Anyways it is sad that there are currently no mechanisms that allow the general public to request for funding without having any collateral :(. Was hoping that someone would at least have an idea how it can be done except by using "blind trust".

Something I was thinking about was having the said person work inside my corporation for the duration of the period. If a miner he puts all mined minerals in corp hanger and they are locked in a can till he pays it all back (hulk loan for example). If a mission runner and he wants a CNR or Marauder I can setup taxes at 100% and he will get the ISK upon refunding of the loan. Or somethings similar.

But in both examples nothing would stop the loan receiver from dropping corp and running with the ISK. Even though these would be little loans I would not want to have my hard earned ISK stolen in seconds and then have people point and laugh just because I was good hearted.

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:10:00 - [5]
 

that would be the idea of my proposed equation, to figure out what % of collateral will mitigate risk to a point where profit can be made on loans > collateral. sure, it may not be much (say 95% collateral with one respectable 3rd party vouching and a one year old character) but even that 15% (110-95=15%) difference is enough to actually provide leverage vs the current temporary liquidation.

Andreas Mennon
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:23:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Rule18
that would be the idea of my proposed equation, to figure out what % of collateral will mitigate risk to a point where profit can be made on loans > collateral. sure, it may not be much (say 95% collateral with one respectable 3rd party vouching and a one year old character) but even that 15% (110-95=15%) difference is enough to actually provide leverage vs the current temporary liquidation.


What you propose might be indeed helpful for some people.

But what I was more curious about is how can one have some form of security on loans to people that have zero collateral. In my opinion, and I already mentioned this in this thread, I find collateral for a loan to be a bit silly as one can easily liquidate his collateral and provide the ISK he needs :/

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:33:00 - [7]
 

IRL collateral is tied to reputation (credit score). On a home-loan for instance, collateral (down payment) is in part influenced by reputation (credit score).

But what you propose is more like a credit card, or an IOU. IRL, those work using the same system. Credit score is effected by payment history on the presumption that at some point a person failing to pay debts will either be paying so much in interest it all works out or will want to make a larger purchase (not to mention collection agencies' nagging).

To try and port this system to eve requires my formula. Is there another way to make money off "un collateralized" loans (quoted because even irl there's no such thing)? I can't think of one.

PS, if you do come up with one, message me. I'll pay good isk for it!

Polemarchus
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:33:00 - [8]
 

Microcredit works in the real world because the participants are part of a community. A woman in Bangladesh borrows a few rupees from a mirocredit fund based in her village. She knows she will have to look her neighbors in the eye if she fails to pay the money back.

In EVE, the social groups that arise have very porous borders. Players move in and out of corps, change occupations, and take hiatuses from the game. If a player cannot provide financial collateral, they need to have social collateral, and EVE only provides that between players who have interacted long enough to gain each others' trust.

I love the idea of EVE credit scores, but it would have to be based on social reputations, since we don't have the wealth of data on past financial transactions that real world credit scores rely on.

With credit scores, a micro loan system would become a little more possible.

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:41:00 - [9]
 

"social credit" i like it. this isn't to say past financial history can't factor... very interesting to see what the shift in emphasis would look like... any chance you've got a link to a site explaining how micro loans work (socially)? (i'd forgotten about them entirely! Embarassed)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:53:00 - [10]
 

There are two BIG differences between EvE loans and RL:

1) The obvious one, people in EvE can scam or steal the hell out of you.

2) Unsecured deals on MD are riskier than dealing in game. Scammers know that there's money to be made here so they will lurk in hunt mode.
In game, most of your friends etc will not be totally out to grab your money, a more acceptable risk profile is possible.

3) The less obvious one: people here are mostly not real investors but just playing one.

They don't have an enterpreneur / speculator mentality therefore they end up being as attached to e-money as they are to RL money and are unable to really dare into calculated risk.

IE if you want to really see a MD though guy weep, all you have to do is to see him lose 100M.


As loaner in a lawless state you really want to loan to people who have something to lose (i.e. if they have a POS out you can disrupt them more than if they are station traders) and in any way you must factor in:


Ʃwins > Ʃlosses

which means that you WILL take account of limited number of large losses but you could offset them with a large number of small wins and eventually end up profitable.

This is akin to RAW23's findings about the overall profitability of all the MD investments.

Polemarchus
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:53:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Polemarchus on 02/03/2011 16:39:09
Wikipedia has a nice synopsis on microcredit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit

It all started with the Grameen Bank, in Bangladesh. Groups of villagers manage a small microcredit fund. This creates the peer pressure needed to ensure loan repayment, and it allows group members to share knowledge and help each other make the best of their investment.

This happens already within eve, usually between corp members. But it is ad-hoc and spontaneous. Microloan groups do it in a structured way, but they still rely on the relationships of trust that already exist in a community. In eve, I would only give an unsecured loan to someone who I know IRL, or who I have played with for a long time, and had talked to enough to know what kind of person they are (and I'd still be taking a risk).


Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:59:00 - [12]
 

VV articulates a point I failed to. Losses WILL happen in any loan system (even with 110% collateral in some cases). The idea is to model failure rates as compared to potential gains as collateral% slides up or down (be it social and/or isk collateral).


on a side note, is there currently a character appraisal system for measuring a character's reputation value in terms of isk?

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:08:00 - [13]
 

I was picking my brain with this as well, as I was hoping to perform this very same venture. My conclusion was much the same as yours, that it just wouldn't work.

HOWEVER, there is one way to help insure that people will pay. Create a corporation, with say a 80-100% tax. Those that want a loan have to join your corp. You have to see a steady income on their part before you would give them the loan, and the profits already made through the tax would count towards their paying you back.

However, this would only work in a very narrow spectrum of circumstances, and you can still get very scammed. So meh, I give up!

Put the service out there anyways for small loans. "If you build it, they will come". Still demand 100% collateral.

AndreaMena
Minmatar
Tanuki Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Create a corporation, with say a 80-100% tax. Those that want a loan have to join your corp. You have to see a steady income on their part before you would give them the loan, and the profits already made through the tax would count towards their paying you back.


This is a very good idea however it narrows down the whole thing to just mission runners - mission for me before I lend you ISK for that pimped out ship that you really want. However this again brings up the question "Why don't you just do it yourself?". I did get a couple of ideas with this method but they all now sound silly and a bit redundant unless you guys say otherwise.

E.g. Pilot wants a ship that costs 100ISK. He missions/rats and accumulates 90ISK in bounties. I then buy the desired ship for him and contract it over to him in good faith that he would pay the additional 10ISK + interests (say its @ 10% so 20ISK in all). Maybe in order for the good faith part to happen I might also add a deal that for example if you do pay up. . I will refund half the interest back!

This should encourage other people to do the good thing and pay up. If I get "scammed" I will only loose that 10ISK and potential interest.

However this does not appeal for the starting station trader and/or other start up business plan that requires small amounts of ISK since not everyone does and likes to rat/mission

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2011.03.02 17:58:00 - [15]
 

It doesn't mean you can't do micro-loan with no collateral. The chances are slim but people do sometimes pay it back. Despite it's ultimate failure, Riddic did issue zero collateral loans to people with EBANK funds, based purely on the faith they will pay it back. A good majority of people paid it back with interest even. There where clients that didn't etc which is pretty obvious, but over all if you count individuals that paid it back vs individuals that didn't it's significantly higher the people honored the loan terms.

So if you really wanted to gamble and didn't care about losing a couple hundred mil here and there, you could run a micro-loan shop. Just say to yourself "I'll never see this ISK again!". Keep a running list of those who don't pay you back, put it on your micro-loan thread so others know about it. Some people still hold reputation dear, having that black mark on their name in a public place is enough to make them pay back a small loan with interest.

Slavemaster
Posted - 2011.03.02 18:51:00 - [16]
 

I just watched a documentary on micro credit, and it turned out to be a fail.

But, I did loan 100 mil, when the Hype of the mico loan
was all over the news...... To a dude at 10%. I had to discard the hole amount as loss...

I will never do that again. the reason is that when players cant even get 100 - 500 mil by just playing, then
they are also worthless as traders.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:07:00 - [17]
 

Well, isk comes and goes. While I agree that 100 mil should be easy enough to come by, it's hard to just keep saving to the point that you physically have your hands on that 100 mil in it's entirety.

Anyways, as to the corporation idea, the problem you will run in to is the complication factor. In science, I once learned the concept of KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. The more complicated you get, the more loopholes are discovered. More loopholes = more ways to lose your money.

I would probably say that if you want to get in to the loan business, you would want to do "Micro-loans" at anywhere from 500mil to 1bil, while at the same time, staying open for smaller loans, but apply the same collateral rules to ALL loans. That is the best way to not get screwed. Also, use a third-party for transactions.

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.03 00:23:00 - [18]
 

the corp idea is one i toyed with... combine this credit service with a training corp for new players... so long as the player needs the corp for something you don't even need a high tax rate, u just threaten to boot upon failure to pay (or just start shooting em since they're in corp). as mentioned though, the problem with this is it couldn't scale vertically (larger isk sums)... only horizontally (more players) and could very well become an administrative cluster frack... srsly though guys... keep ideas coming. i'm sure there's some sort of middle ground in here somewhere.

Jack Mortu
Posted - 2011.03.03 08:55:00 - [19]
 

I like this idea of a credit score. But I think you're focusing too much on the formula. Figuring out a collateral requirement would be good, but honest eve denziens would generally repay their loans so long as other circumstances do not prevent them.

Your scoring system should focus on a reputability rating. In other words, having access to their limited API key, receiving references from other parties (more the better), and past performance in repaying debt.

There's a guy on here getting billions of dollars in loaned money just because he's known to repay it and it's unsecured.

Once reputability is established, people are easier with lending out money.

I'd be interested in helping anyone develop a system like this. The real hurdle is gathering loan data on the persons. It would have to be generated by a corp that loans, and that information would have to be 100% trustworthy. The credit rating company could be a lender itself, maybe. We'd charge for credit checks once it became popular though. :P

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.03 09:07:00 - [20]
 

reputability is great and all but what % of the eve community does it apply to? 1% ? at a grossly inflated number?

I see 3 more users groups that will be trying to take out loans that need to be addresses:
scammers - doesn't matter what system u use, some are going to get in. how do you quantify these and account for their theft?

noobs - these are the sub 1-2 month accounts... these are the players most likely to just decide not to ever log on again they also have the least ability to make isk but have the highest potential benefit from a micro loan.

average user - he's tried some mining, pi, manufacture and pvp. he currently is doing one of these but his chances at succeeding... moderate.

balancing interest rates so that isk in > isk out, so that investors feel safe placing isk into the venture, will take A LOT. I'm open to other ways of doing this... but i really think the relative risk factors of each of these users needs to be monetized with some degree of accuracy (+/- 25% would be a good starting goal). note that such a business could factor the sale of its "credit reports" to other lenders as a revenue source when determining its rates.

Jack Mortu
Posted - 2011.03.03 09:31:00 - [21]
 

Well Rule18, with your way of doing it, it sounds great. I wish it could be done that way. The problem is you don't have the data to derive the formula. You could fudge the numbers and assume the worst case scenerio, 50% don't repay or something. Though, I have a hunch it'd result in an interest rate so high only scammers would try for a loan. :)


My suggestion side-steps that and leaves the lending presumptions to the lenders. The credit report would just be a file on the person, stating their history, references, and maybe data on their account, derived from the API.

I'd leave it to them to decide the terms of the loan, afterall, it's their money and they wont follow the formula unless they believe it, and are comftorable with it.

Even if such a system only covers a fraction of 1%, great, that's a community within eve that can transact business deals with reduced restrictions, (lower collateral & possibly reduced interest rates).

With this system, people would know who they're lending to, whether they're newbs, or older players. They'd know if the person has no loan data on record or if they do. Securing a loan for the first time would be the most difficult thing. And then of course, getting valid information into their account from trustworthy lenders. It'd likely be a project for a web designer, honestly.

Once you had such data, I think you could then start in earnest at what you're suggesting. You wouldn't have to fudge numbers anymore, you'd know the % chance someone doesn't repay given their account info.

Roelof Kremer
Posted - 2011.03.03 09:54:00 - [22]
 

Hi all.

Maybe a thought.

Have a 100% collateral. If a corp can vouch for the player. And pledge for the player. Give a 1-10% discount on the collateral.
Say 0.5% for every 10 members for in the corp?
If the player is a fraud. Ask the corp for the ISK? And a penalty for + 1-10% isk depending on the colateral discount.

Your (...) if the corp is a fraud,... XD

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.03 12:11:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Rule18 on 03/03/2011 12:15:15
ha, jack you give me too much credit, before any data can be generated a list of relevant factors and their weighting needs to come first! maybe an alliance system like your proposing is the best way to generate said data... either way... it'd be one hell of a project. when i get my current business venture off the ground, i'll put together a group and some funding for it.

btw... i'm so sorry for the thread-jack op... just too interesting!

-edit didn't see u there roel-

certainly a possibility... the chief problem i see with that is what if A the alliance loses value to the loan taker or B what if the alliance itself defaults on contract agreements? (or management changes) not to mention what would it cost in additional fees to maintain such deals with other corps/alliances? seriously... anyone wanna quote me a number?

maybe shoot for a micro-credit union type thing?

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.03.03 13:49:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/03/2011 13:50:50

don't forget second order effects.

Assume you run a test with an interest rate of 15%/month just to get some data on defaults/scams.

You determine that you would have broken even by charging 60%/month.

If you did set the interest rate to 60%/month all scammers would still get a loan (because they don't intend to pay any interest anyways) but quite a few legit customers would probably not be interested in paying that much interest and no longer make use of your offer.
(you would probably also have to expect a higher rate of defaults due to business failure)

Your pool of customers has deteriorated (same amount of thieves, less honest customers) which means you have to increase the interest rate to compensate... which will of course lead to even less honest customers ... which means...

in economics situations like this are described with the term "adverse selection" - by increasing the interest rate you select your pool of customers unless only the worst ones (scammers) are left.


As a slightly unrelated point you might also like to read Akerlof's seminal "The Market for "Lemons" " paper on asymmetric information (Linkage). In the 3rd section he makes some interesting observations on asymmetric information and usury.

Roelof Kremer
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:08:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Roelof Kremer on 03/03/2011 14:09:22
Originally by: Rule18
Edited by: Rule18 on 03/03/2011 12:15:15

-edit didn't see u there roel-

certainly a possibility... the chief problem i see with that is what if A the alliance loses value to the loan taker or B what if the alliance itself defaults on contract agreements? (or management changes) not to mention what would it cost in additional fees to maintain such deals with other corps/alliances? seriously... anyone wanna quote me a number?

maybe shoot for a micro-credit union type thing?


The surgestion.


Giving out a loan to a single player.
If a player request a lone.
The first this is 110% collateral. The player can get a total of say max 40% discount on the collateral.
5% from personal rep.
20% is a corp. guarantee, underwrite or vouch for the player.
15% if a alliance guarantee, underwrite or vouch for the player.

1-5% from personal rep depending from audit,..
1-20% depending on corp., amount members, rep and lifetime
1-15% depending on alliance, amount members, rep and lifetime

corp. ceo /staff / management haze to personally guarantee for the player.
alliance all the corp. ceo's haze to guarantee for the player.

The player him self setup for the collateral. Not the corp. of alliance.
So the collateral comes out of the players wallet.

If the player backs out of the deal. The corp. and or alliance become responsible for the loan.
The corp. and/or the alliance haze to payback the loan and therefore receive the collateral in return.

The corp. or alliance have a 1 to15% risk on the deal.
So the corp. or alliance will only allow smutch a deal if the player is trustworthy in the corp. or alliance.

The player can also offer the corp. or alliance the 1 to 15% risk in other collateral, isk, contracts or work. ( work, mining/mission running until corp. tax amount the lvl or risk )

At the end there still will be a 110% collateral in some way.
it will simply allow trustfully members of corp. and or alliance to easy get a loan for a lower collateral. The lower collateral will allow the player to use more or there assist.

In my thought it is easier to have a corp. or alliance held responsible for a loan then a single player.

Mar Lee
An Army of None
Posted - 2011.03.03 16:52:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Polemarchus
Microcredit works in the real world because the participants are part of a community. A woman in Bangladesh borrows a few rupees from a mirocredit fund based in her village. She knows she will have to look her neighbors in the eye if she fails to pay the money back.

In EVE, the social groups that arise have very porous borders. Players move in and out of corps, change occupations, and take hiatuses from the game. If a player cannot provide financial collateral, they need to have social collateral, and EVE only provides that between players who have interacted long enough to gain each others' trust.

I love the idea of EVE credit scores, but it would have to be based on social reputations, since we don't have the wealth of data on past financial transactions that real world credit scores rely on.

With credit scores, a micro loan system would become a little more possible.


Polemarchus is wise. Microcredit already exists in EVE. Corporations and alliances offer loans to their members (usually at pretty good rates). There are, of course, limitations, but because there is a sense of community in a good alliance, and because there are social and financial consequences for defrauding your alliance, microcredit works. In a public offering, where there aren't any ties between borrower and lender, and no way to enforce payment if the borrower defaults? Not so much.

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:41:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Rule18 on 04/03/2011 00:49:16
Originally by: Polemarchus
Microcredit works in the real world because the participants are part of a community. A woman in Bangladesh borrows a few rupees from a mirocredit fund based in her village. She knows she will have to look her neighbors in the eye if she fails to pay the money back.

...

With credit scores, a micro loan system would become a little more possible.


Originally by: Mar Lee
Polemarchus is wise. Microcredit already exists in EVE. Corporations and alliances offer loans to their members (usually at pretty good rates). There are, of course, limitations, but because there is a sense of community in a good alliance, and because there are social and financial consequences for defrauding your alliance, microcredit works. In a public offering, where there aren't any ties between borrower and lender, and no way to enforce payment if the borrower defaults? Not so much.


Interesting... maybe we're looking at this the wrong way... certain alliance and corps are already selective enough in their membership that they are able to make said micro-loans. i would think it reasonable to assume these same alliances and corps do NOT have unlimited funding. perhaps "micro credit" could instead be treated as corp/alliance loaning for dispersal?

sample
1) micro credit corp is formed, bi laws, site etc
2) micro credit approaches several alliances/corps discussing "credit" contract to the tune of 3-10% and a monthly maintenance fee (10-100mil).
3) once several alliances/corps signup credit corp audits them and removes the weakest/most-likely to go under (maybe fix it at bottom 50% are cut?)
4) micro credit "goes public" offering matched funding investment for the sum of 110-150% the amount of pre-discussed contracts with alliances/corps
4a) % collected on loaned out money = dividend payment (up to 6%)
5) first round investing closes and micro credit disburses funds to fill previously negotiated contracts
6) contracts and contract "signatures" are posted in public
7) as needed re-evaluate existing business relationships (drop the dead beats and adjust rates as per terms of contracts)
8) open "applications" to corps and alliances
9) continue to run and reinvest maintenance fees + any interest not paid to dividends
--other--
10) if funds requested from approved alliances/corps > funds available for loaning open second round investment. this investment will in the form of a bond and not dilute original shares. payments on bond would be made as 50-90% of funds not being paid to dividends
11) extend similar services to EvE businesses (upon approval of course)
12) oh yes and audit roles will be made publicly available to anyone who wants them in any of the holding companies
13) as time and funds allow experiment with "credit score" formulas and relay findings to contracted alliances/corps (confidentiality clause in all contracts regarding this info)
13a) funding would be syphoned from either reinvestment or dividend payment based upon voting
--if jackpot--
14) if the formula works... ever... launch a subsidiary corp to loan direct-to-player on a short-term basis
14a) could work similar to a credit card... 3-24 month max period subject to reapplication, compounding interest, min monthly payment and late fees
14b) could offer membership in corp as a way to reduce rates (corp members if in default could be targeted/killed)
15) maintain a persistent list of "credit scores"
16) offer audit/credit rating services/insurance through subsidiary corp
--other 2--
17) win eve
/done
Well ****... I pulled that out of my ass in 30 seconds... Sounds much more plausible than some insane research-based formula and is readily scalable...
/me considers launching

Jack Mortu
Posted - 2011.03.04 07:34:00 - [28]
 

Rule18, it's a thought. Could work, but I can't see most CEO's/Alliances being bothered with signing-up unless their members were keen on the idea.

Most likely wouldn't sign-up if they were in any way responsible for their members ability to repay.

I was in a corp with a guy who did Jita-scamming at one pont. No one in the corp cared because he wasn't scamming us, most of us would have lent him money had he asked.

Maybe you put this in there and I didn't catch it, but how would a corp/alliance be in any way responsible for their member's actions?

There's likely some corps that would sign-up and the CEO would tell them to borrow as much as possible, and the entire corp would default on the loan.

Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.04 08:11:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Rule18 on 04/03/2011 08:14:46
corp/alliance responsibility is inherent in the relationship. the loan is made to the corp/alliance not to the player. the idea is the corp/alliance has a lot more face to lose than any given player. essentially, it offers alliance/corps a line of credit vs offering it to the players... i suppose the alliance/corp could use the isk for other things... but the proposed loan amounts wouldn't be useful for much else...

which brings me to another thought...

credit for corps/alliances... has it been done? (no i'm not talking about ipos and bonds... kind of like loans... expect more short-term and fluid)

---edit-didn't see your last line there---

that's why say the bottom 50% would be dropped. the idea is only to extend it to corps who already run legit operations (of whatever nature)who would have face to lose. newer corps present the same kind of issue as new players do. they have 0 collateral (including reputation). the idea is to extend credit to newer players who happen to be in "older" corps... god i wish i had the time/isk to actually run some tests :-/

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.03.04 08:48:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
corp/alliance has a lot more face to lose than any given player

*cough* KIA *cough*


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