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NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:47:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 28/02/2011 23:47:50
So I had this big long, elaborate rant about comparing the Ashimmu to the Jappanese/Chinese Yin and Yang regarding ballance of power...yatta yatta yatta. But then I realized that the piont I had made was more about sticking up for yourself against bullies....TO the point

The Ashimmu looks pretty, I wanna fly it, better yet I can fly it; But I need to justify 160mil isk for a cruiser that doesn't appear to be very good.

Can one of you tell me more about this ships then what I can learn on wiki?
Is it a good pvp ship? PVE? It has web speed bonuses, but I can't imagine it makes good tackle due to its cruiser sized sig radious, and nothing-to-speak-of resistances.

Whats its purpose, and is it worth the investment?

Pistrik
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.03.01 00:03:00 - [2]
 

I rarely ever see Ashimmu's in PvP. The only thing I believe you can do with it is brick tank it with neuts for a bait ship. But that's only a guess, since I've never flown the ship.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.01 00:14:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 01/03/2011 00:16:26
It's a beast at killing pimped active tanked stuff, specifically caldari. Say bye bye to photon hardeners and AB speed tanking, hello to EM damage. Cripples laser and blaster boats completely too (except drones), but as said the main thing is that it's better vs drakes, tengus etc than a Curse/TDs. Also you can neut 1 or 2 ships points off of yourself if you need to GTFO, or just kite at 18km with long point and scorch. (Neuts 3 ships' tackle if you're lucky, maybe just 1 with staggered neuts if they have a cap booster). Fed Navy web is a must, still a cheap package. And it's damned good looking! YARRRR!!

MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
Posted - 2011.03.01 00:56:00 - [4]
 

Its useless at its intended role. Ship neuts less than a pilgrim or curse, has no range bonus, needs a ~50mil web on top of its pricey base cost just to even begin to function, and has to come into standard overladed web range to neut. Lacking a TD it has no way to mitigate dps from turret boats (esp. autocannons), and its dps is worse than a curse. The only practical use for the Ashimmu is a gang webber for gatecamps - everything else is done better by other ships.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.03.01 02:01:00 - [5]
 

I was going to write up another detailed explanation as to why the ashimmu is one of the best cruiser hulls in game (on par with cynabal) but then decided I'd just link some kills. A picture says a thousand words after all.

True solo on a gate, they thought they were going to gank one of my shinies (5v1, only 1 escaped): frig blob fail

Hey look, a cynabal in a dead end system. Let's try a remote sebo'd ashimmu and see if that 90% 18km web + 3 bonused medium neuts can keep him from burning back to the gate: None shall pass!

I can totally gank a bomber in this thing and bail, that ashimmu will never pin me down! Worm fail. He did succeed in killing the bomber, bad trade though.

All that stuff is just within the past week or so. The ashimmu is one of the best tackle ships in game thanks to its combination of web bonus and neuts. Yes, it requires a 50M isk fed navy web to work but so does a rapier and they both have a price tag of about 100-125M isk. It's no more expensive than your typical t2 cruiser and neither are the typical fittings. The only "problem" with it is it is a tanked brick, but so is a bhaalgorn. I don't see anyone asking to buff those. Tanked bricks are just fine so long as they are good at the tanking part and the ashimmu is.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.03.01 02:11:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
Yes, it requires a 50M isk fed navy web to work but so does a rapier and they both have a price tag of about 100-125M isk.


A Rapier does not require a fed navy web. If you really want to throw money at a Rapier, get a faction disruptor instead.

MWDrive
Posted - 2011.03.01 12:09:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: MWDrive on 01/03/2011 12:29:44
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: King Rothgar
Yes, it requires a 50M isk fed navy web to work but so does a rapier and they both have a price tag of about 100-125M isk.


A Rapier does not require a fed navy web. If you really want to throw money at a Rapier, get a faction disruptor instead.

Rapier doesn't require faction web, but ashimuu shouldn't be used nor compared to rapier.

Ashimuu isn't bad, it is a brick though. Today, when everyone flies nano ships due to the constant fear of getting a fight, you don't want to be in a brick. It's great for gate camps and similar, but there is no reason to take it out for a roam, it's simply too slow and being a faction ship makes it juicy target.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.03.01 15:25:00 - [8]
 

So it's looking like this is a good anti frig gunboat?

How's it fare vs battle cruisers?

Goose99
Posted - 2011.03.01 15:57:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 01/03/2011 15:58:03
Originally by: NinjaSpud
So it's looking like this is a good anti frig gunboat?

How's it fare vs battle cruisers?



Badly, a cheap-o cane or drake will butcher it. And whatever it can do, Curse can do better. What's the point?Rolling Eyes

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.01 16:45:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Goose99
Edited by: Goose99 on 01/03/2011 15:58:03
Originally by: NinjaSpud
So it's looking like this is a good anti frig gunboat?

How's it fare vs battle cruisers?



Badly, a cheap-o cane or drake will butcher it. And whatever it can do, Curse can do better. What's the point?Rolling Eyes


I see you've never used a Curse under sentry fire.

-Liang

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.03.01 16:46:00 - [11]
 

If it got a bonus to armor resists I would still fly the Cruor. EFT tells me the Ashimmu is pretty much the same cruiser-wise.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.03.01 20:52:00 - [12]
 

You do have to use a ship in it's niche. As I previously said, it is a brick so you have to stick with things a brick can do well. You must stick to choke points such as gates/stations/plex entrances and so on where the enemy is forced to warp to you within web range. And neither the curse or pilgrim is better. They are different and are good at completely different tasks. The curse/pilgrim are dps/repair reduction ships, the ashimmu is a tackle ship (for fixed locations).

Against a blaster/energy turret BC it might work solo but generally it's a bad idea. But the same is true of any hac or faction cruiser. Not one of them can take on a BC 1v1 and have any hope of killing it if it's properly fit and piloted. So that's hardly fair. A few of the recons can by bleeding passive armor tanks and using EW to prevent them from shooting back effectively, but not the hacs. Against BC's and up, it's tackle, not a solo boat.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:59:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Diomidis on 01/03/2011 21:59:36
The ship is good but not for soloing. Reasons? Well, low dps, extra slow when plated, no cloak like the pilgrim, no range like the Curse etc.

It operates fine around gates and un-docking spots, and you can see some in popular low-sec camping systems like Rancer, usually in situations where ANYTHING able to get few seconds of gate fire would work just as well (cause usually those pirates gank loners who would have no chance vs. them, regardless of Ashimmu being Ashimmu or just a dual-web whatever with more DPS).

Still it's the first faction ship I have seen when I've started EVE, and it's VERY pretty Very Happy

Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2011.03.02 14:49:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Emperor Ryan on 02/03/2011 14:49:34
Originally by: King Rothgar

Against a blaster/energy turret BC it might work solo but generally it's a bad idea. But the same is true of any hac or faction cruiser. Not one of them can take on a BC 1v1 and have any hope of killing it if it's properly fit and piloted. So that's hardly fair. A few of the recons can by bleeding passive armor tanks and using EW to prevent them from shooting back effectively, but not the hacs. Against BC's and up, it's tackle, not a solo boat.
I actually liked and agreed with your posts up until this point.

There are defiantly some HAC's and recons that don't have an issue going head to head with BC's First the two obvious choices, Cynabal and Vagabond are particularly good at this if piloted correctly as long as your the one dictating the fight by having superior speed. Both the Caldari Hac's and Faction Cruisers aren't normally able to however as for the Diemost, it Can stand a 'decent' chance both active/Buffer fit however unlike the Minnie counterpart it must commit to a fight by getting in close.

Lets not forget the Ishtar despite the Nano nerf it is still capable of chewing through a BC as well and if amour and not speed tanked can sport some Ewar in the mids (TD's etc) to help reduce the incoming damage. Lets not forget the Sacrilege which sports a great tank as well and can hold up quite well Vs any BC. The zealot can also be rather effective but due to it's lack of Drones and Utility slots it can only be used in very limited situations target wise for solo BC killing but is also by no means obsolete.

Broxette
Posted - 2011.03.02 22:49:00 - [15]
 

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12186714

Just another little ashimmu kill.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:13:00 - [16]
 

I like to think of it as a bargain bin vigilant with utility highs.

Maz3r Rakum
Gallente
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:24:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Broxette
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12186714

Just another little ashimmu kill.


always sad to see a pimp ship killed BECAUSE OF FALCON YARRRR!!

MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
Posted - 2011.03.02 23:27:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Broxette
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12186714

Just another little ashimmu kill.


Ugh why do people use battleclinic, it makes one want to stab their brain out trying to read it.

But ok cool, you baited out a vindicator in highsec (war or canflip, doesn't really matter) with a prophecy and then dropped a neuting boat and a falcon on him and slowly cut him to death. yea, that really shows off the power of the ashimmu. Oh wait, no, it doesn't, it shows off the power of the falcon (and the out of corp guardian you probably had). A curse would do everything on this killmail better. Better dps, better neuts, far less likely to spontaneously die to 1200 dps and the vindicator's 90% web.

If your going to argue that the ashimmu is a good ship, don't post some terrible killmail with falcons on it. Nor should you post a killmail where the deciding factor was the 90% web (sup frigates), as that has nothing to do with the ashimmu, but instead is about frigates stupid enough to fight a ship with, derp, a 90% web. If you want to somehow make the case where the Ashimmu is good at its intended role, you need to show a fight (in theory or not IDC) where the neuting and laser dps was the deciding factor - as otherwise your using the ashimmu as a budget Vigilant (and such use I already granted as a 90% gate/station camper). Which leaves you...err... soloing brutixes? Awesome, you can fly a 200mil isk ship (faction web is mandatory on her remember) and solo T1 blaster boats... like every other ship in the game can. Poor, poor hybrids...

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.03.03 08:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Emperor Ryan
Edited by: Emperor Ryan on 02/03/2011 14:49:34
Originally by: King Rothgar

Against a blaster/energy turret BC it might work solo but generally it's a bad idea. But the same is true of any hac or faction cruiser. Not one of them can take on a BC 1v1 and have any hope of killing it if it's properly fit and piloted. So that's hardly fair. A few of the recons can by bleeding passive armor tanks and using EW to prevent them from shooting back effectively, but not the hacs. Against BC's and up, it's tackle, not a solo boat.
I actually liked and agreed with your posts up until this point.

There are defiantly some HAC's and recons that don't have an issue going head to head with BC's First the two obvious choices, Cynabal and Vagabond are particularly good at this if piloted correctly as long as your the one dictating the fight by having superior speed. Both the Caldari Hac's and Faction Cruisers aren't normally able to however as for the Diemost, it Can stand a 'decent' chance both active/Buffer fit however unlike the Minnie counterpart it must commit to a fight by getting in close.

Lets not forget the Ishtar despite the Nano nerf it is still capable of chewing through a BC as well and if amour and not speed tanked can sport some Ewar in the mids (TD's etc) to help reduce the incoming damage. Lets not forget the Sacrilege which sports a great tank as well and can hold up quite well Vs any BC. The zealot can also be rather effective but due to it's lack of Drones and Utility slots it can only be used in very limited situations target wise for solo BC killing but is also by no means obsolete.


In order to kill something, you must be in point range. Either a nano or a plated hurricane, for example, will eat a vagabond/cynabal alive at any range between 0 and 24km. Now yeah, you could probably take down a brutix with a vaga but I can't recall the last time I saw a brutix as anything but kamakazi dps in a fleet. That's not to say the BC poses a big threat to a nano HAC though, in the case of the vaga/cynabal, the most likely scenario is they come to about 20km, start shooting, realize the guy isn't a noob and then have to bail or die. Assuming any degree of competence, they will get away. But I didn't say anything about the BC killing a HAC, I said the HAC couldn't kill the BC Wink. It's basically a draw since the HAC will die at any range it can attack the BC, but the BC can't catch it if the HAC doesn't want to fight.

I am assuming t2 gear, basic implants and no ganglinks. Throw in some faction gear, pirate implants and a gang booster t3 and things suddenly change, but you can also do some very interesting things with the t1 BC's as well when you start throwing that stuff in. So apples to apples, not apples to gold bricks.

In any case, here's another kill with my ashimmu. Made possible thanks to the ashimmu as the guy would have successfully burned back to the gate and escaped without it. And no, a curse would not have helped. In fact it would have been completely useless. phantasm

Broxette
Posted - 2011.03.03 19:20:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Broxette
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12186714

Just another little ashimmu kill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ugh why do people use battleclinic, it makes one want to stab their brain out trying to read it.

But ok cool, you baited out a vindicator in highsec (war or canflip, doesn't really matter) with a prophecy and then dropped a neuting boat and a falcon on him and slowly cut him to death. yea, that really shows off the power of the ashimmu. Oh wait, no, it doesn't, it shows off the power of the falcon (and the out of corp guardian you probably had). A curse would do everything on this killmail better. Better dps, better neuts, far less likely to spontaneously die to 1200 dps and the vindicator's 90% web.

If your going to argue that the ashimmu is a good ship, don't post some terrible killmail with falcons on it. Nor should you post a killmail where the deciding factor was the 90% web (sup frigates), as that has nothing to do with the ashimmu, but instead is about frigates stupid enough to fight a ship with, derp, a 90% web. If you want to somehow make the case where the Ashimmu is good at its intended role, you need to show a fight (in theory or not IDC) where the neuting and laser dps was the deciding factor - as otherwise your using the ashimmu as a budget Vigilant (and such use I already granted as a 90% gate/station camper). Which leaves you...err... soloing brutixes? Awesome, you can fly a 200mil isk ship (faction web is mandatory on her remember) and solo T1 blaster boats... like every other ship in the game can. Poor, poor hybrids...

Yawn!!

MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:10:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar

In any case, here's another kill with my ashimmu. Made possible thanks to the ashimmu as the guy would have successfully burned back to the gate and escaped without it. And no, a curse would not have helped. In fact it would have been completely useless. phantasm


Yet another kill using it as a cheap vigilant and not in any way relying on its neuting power. If your going to argue the ashimmu is a good ship, please at least do so without relying on its context as a gate-camper to gank random ships that try to burn back to gate. If your phantasm target had half a brain, btw, he would have just mwd/cloaked and warped out with nary a problem. Your ashimmu was far less a factor than him being braindead was.

Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.03.03 20:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: MWDrive
Today, when everyone flies nano ships due to the constant fear of getting a fight, you don't want to be in a brick.


I like you!

Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2011.03.03 21:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: King Rothgar
Originally by: Emperor Ryan
Edited by: Emperor Ryan on 02/03/2011 14:49:34
Originally by: King Rothgar

Against a blaster/energy turret BC it might work solo but generally it's a bad idea. But the same is true of any hac or faction cruiser. Not one of them can take on a BC 1v1 and have any hope of killing it if it's properly fit and piloted. So that's hardly fair. A few of the recons can by bleeding passive armor tanks and using EW to prevent them from shooting back effectively, but not the hacs. Against BC's and up, it's tackle, not a solo boat.
I actually liked and agreed with your posts up until this point.

There are defiantly some HAC's and recons that don't have an issue going head to head with BC's First the two obvious choices, Cynabal and Vagabond are particularly good at this if piloted correctly as long as your the one dictating the fight by having superior speed. Both the Caldari Hac's and Faction Cruisers aren't normally able to however as for the Diemost, it Can stand a 'decent' chance both active/Buffer fit however unlike the Minnie counterpart it must commit to a fight by getting in close.

Lets not forget the Ishtar despite the Nano nerf it is still capable of chewing through a BC as well and if amour and not speed tanked can sport some Ewar in the mids (TD's etc) to help reduce the incoming damage. Lets not forget the Sacrilege which sports a great tank as well and can hold up quite well Vs any BC. The zealot can also be rather effective but due to it's lack of Drones and Utility slots it can only be used in very limited situations target wise for solo BC killing but is also by no means obsolete.


In order to kill something, you must be in point range. Either a nano or a plated hurricane, for example, will eat a vagabond/cynabal alive at any range between 0 and 24km. Now yeah, you could probably take down a brutix with a vaga but I can't recall the last time I saw a brutix as anything but kamakazi dps in a fleet. That's not to say the BC poses a big threat to a nano HAC though, in the case of the vaga/cynabal, the most likely scenario is they come to about 20km, start shooting, realize the guy isn't a noob and then have to bail or die. Assuming any degree of competence, they will get away. But I didn't say anything about the BC killing a HAC, I said the HAC couldn't kill the BC Wink. It's basically a draw since the HAC will die at any range it can attack the BC, but the BC can't catch it if the HAC doesn't want to fight.

I am assuming t2 gear, basic implants and no ganglinks. Throw in some faction gear, pirate implants and a gang booster t3 and things suddenly change, but you can also do some very interesting things with the t1 BC's as well when you start throwing that stuff in. So apples to apples, not apples to gold bricks.

In any case, here's another kill with my ashimmu. Made possible thanks to the ashimmu as the guy would have successfully burned back to the gate and escaped without it. And no, a curse would not have helped. In fact it would have been completely useless. phantasm


Man I dont know how you fly a Plated/nano Cane but i personally have never had issues in a Vagabond or Cynabal killing a hurricane unless i make a mistake in piloting or Using the Wrong ammo which can sometimes happen, But generally speaking You gotta be doing something wrong to lose such a fight. Only example i can see a Cane winning is a heavy tank fit with 180's in which the output dps of the cane would be low but possibly enough to Win.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.03 22:22:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Emperor Ryan

Man I dont know how you fly a Plated/nano Cane but i personally have never had issues in a Vagabond or Cynabal killing a hurricane unless i make a mistake in piloting or Using the Wrong ammo which can sometimes happen, But generally speaking You gotta be doing something wrong to lose such a fight. Only example i can see a Cane winning is a heavy tank fit with 180's in which the output dps of the cane would be low but possibly enough to Win.



TBH the Cane pilot has to be doing something wrong to lose the fight as well. The Vagabond/Cynabal simply doesn't have enough DPS to kill a Cane before being killed/driven off the field.

-Liang

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.03.04 00:23:00 - [25]
 

That was my point, if the vaga can point a cane, it will get torn apart by the guns. A nano cane has more tank and more dps at any range that matters 1v1. So no, it won't kill the vaga unless he's brain dead, but it will drive him off.

Back to the ashimmu, the last kill I linked shows the ashimmu's strength as a tackler. The neuts were useful as it shut off his MWD. It is possible that even with the 90% web he *might* have made it back to the gate. The neuts prevented him from getting a second mwd cycle though. Yes the vigilant also has the web amount bonus, but it doesn't have neuts. I don't know about you, but I find neuts to be rather useful. Not that I'm knocking the vigilant, it's a great ship too.

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.03.04 01:23:00 - [26]
 

1500 m/s base mwd speed isn't so slow actually. I'm starting to like the Ash, maybe I'll buy one :P

David Carel
Caldari
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.04 01:33:00 - [27]
 

Cynabal vs Nano-Cane is a tight fight, I agree; however, the Cynabal is much faster and more agile than a Cane and thus can always run.

Now, if you change ranges he deals much less effective damage than you -- either he has to waste 10 seconds for reload to Barrage once you go at 30km or deal some pathetic 70 DPS with guns while you still deal 200. Not counting the extra DPS from med drones a cynabal has.
If he doesn't reload, he dies.
If he reloads, he wastes 10 seconds and once he starts shooting again, you come closer and spew 400 DPS @15km at him while he does 150. Cane dies.

Even worse if he doesn't have medium neuts: You orbit pretty close (5km or so) and kill him with full DPS, while the cane does, what, 50?

(Yes, all that are EFT numbers but arty-cane almost died to me recently, ECM drones jammed me though and he escaped)

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.04 03:44:00 - [28]
 

Hmm I wonder how a drake would do vs that cynabal

David Carel
Caldari
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.04 16:14:00 - [29]
 

HAM Drake is unable to apply damage and dies.
HM Drake deals 110 DPS at any range (w/o drones). Has 100k EHP.
Cynabal orbits close (5km), deals 450 DPS (w/o drones) and has 24k EHP.

With that calculation, both will last the same time.

Cynabal still has gtfo-ability; if the Cynabal pilot isn't dumb and shoots the Drake's drones, he wins as he does 550 DPS with Valk II, killing the Drake in 180 seconds. If he doesn't he has to gtfo or dies in 120 seconds.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.03.04 18:45:00 - [30]
 

90% web on a cruiser hull is nice. Having to pay a bit over 100mil for it is much more reasonable than paying over 300mil for a vigilant.

That said, most times you want a 90% web you probably want it on a frigate with high scan resolution. Maybe remote sensor boosted.

Don't dismiss the ashimmu's 90% webs.


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