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Mdtg'ifsg Gul'is
Posted - 2011.03.01 12:23:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Mdtg''ifsg Gul''is on 01/03/2011 12:23:23
Originally by: Ephemeron
There has never been a real "iWin" button in EVE. Things have always been unbalanced one way or another, but never enough for something to be invulnerable or unbeatable.


Spoken like a true new player.

2003-2004 cyclejamming anyone? I'd consider a being able to fight one guy versus five others in equal ships and winning without a scratch a iWin button.

VanNostrum
Posted - 2011.03.01 13:40:00 - [32]
 

yes yes! give HAC fleets bigger edge over BS fleets!

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 16:51:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: DHB WildCat on 01/03/2011 16:59:29
Alright Im going to write some points out I think will help my ideas... In no way am I saying im right and you are wrong, I think they are relevent is all.

1) Back in the first nano age we didnt have all the gun boosts we do now. The nano ships would still need to be around 24km to point someone. Now, Minmatar and Amarr ships have short range guns, and ammo that can hit that range and track an MWD cruiser and above. No it cannot hit a frig, but it isnt supposed to, and with a frig you tank it as you go back to a gate or station.

2) Nano ships offer diversity, however if you catch them, they insta pop. No tank and since we have ships that tackle them..... Rapier, Huginn, Arazu, Hyena, any ship with command bonus.... in point range, they offer little threat.

3) I really like the idea someone posted about how a ship lighting a cyno will lose its lock, and a warm up period for the cyno itself. This would give people a chance to escape from capital hotdrops and even black op hot drops.

4) Caldari missiles cannot hit targets now as they are. Also to fix this problem I would implement a feature of how a missile continues to gain speed as it is fired. For example a cruise missile would start out at 5km/sec. then at 20km its doing 30km/sec.... 100km 80km/sec.... ect. Someone would have to do the exact math on this, but the point is to make missiles hit quicker. Obviously sig radius would still be a factor, but this way the missiles would catch the fast targets, and if they had their mwds on, it would do some damage. Not to mention this would bring it in line with the instant damage of guns... may have to lose a little dps to keep them balanced. However I would take near instant damage over dps that takes 45 seconds to get there. Please do not fear, torps would still be highly based on sig, so they wont omg pwn every cruiser. And yes your orbiting crow would hit the target before the missile loses flight time.

5) With the nano change and a slight.... yes slight... agility boost to gallente, gallente would have a chance to get into range and actually be useful. Maybe even give them a slight web bonus to help hold targets.

6) With webs I agree going all the way back to 90% may be too much. However making them 75-80% wouldnt be too bad I think. Plus give gallente a small rnage bonus, not as large as a bhaalgorns per say but somewhere in between. Remember Gallente is gun boat race without gun range bonuses for most of their ships... even the rohk is better at hybrids for range than a mega.

Anyways all these points are meant to promote pilot skill. This game is far too dependant on numbers. In call of duty give me 5 guys with years of experience against 20 guys that just started the game. The 5 guys would win, however in eve the 20 would win because they simply have more. I really think we need to bring back some changes that promote pilot skill and good teamwork.

WildCat

baltec1
Posted - 2011.03.01 18:31:00 - [34]
 

Or we can keep it as it is (because its better) and simply fix rails. Gal ships do not have many issues catching things unless you do something wrong.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:16:00 - [35]
 

wow i cant believe im actually agree wit dhb wildcat


bring back the old speed/mass values before the last nanonerf and most important of all make polycarbon and nanofiber to reduce mass again

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:18:00 - [36]
 

Someone lost a bet and/or is drunk poasting.

TrimethylChromiumdioxide
Caldari
Infinatech
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:30:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat
Edited by: DHB WildCat on 01/03/2011 16:59:29
Alright Im going to write some points out I think will help my ideas... In no way am I saying im right and you are wrong, I think they are relevent is all.

1) Back in the first nano age we didnt have all the gun boosts we do now. The nano ships would still need to be around 24km to point someone. Now, Minmatar and Amarr ships have short range guns, and ammo that can hit that range and track an MWD cruiser and above. No it cannot hit a frig, but it isnt supposed to, and with a frig you tank it as you go back to a gate or station.

2) Nano ships offer diversity, however if you catch them, they insta pop. No tank and since we have ships that tackle them..... Rapier, Huginn, Arazu, Hyena, any ship with command bonus.... in point range, they offer little threat.

3) I really like the idea someone posted about how a ship lighting a cyno will lose its lock, and a warm up period for the cyno itself. This would give people a chance to escape from capital hotdrops and even black op hot drops.

4) Caldari missiles cannot hit targets now as they are. Also to fix this problem I would implement a feature of how a missile continues to gain speed as it is fired. For example a cruise missile would start out at 5km/sec. then at 20km its doing 30km/sec.... 100km 80km/sec.... ect. Someone would have to do the exact math on this, but the point is to make missiles hit quicker. Obviously sig radius would still be a factor, but this way the missiles would catch the fast targets, and if they had their mwds on, it would do some damage. Not to mention this would bring it in line with the instant damage of guns... may have to lose a little dps to keep them balanced. However I would take near instant damage over dps that takes 45 seconds to get there. Please do not fear, torps would still be highly based on sig, so they wont omg pwn every cruiser. And yes your orbiting crow would hit the target before the missile loses flight time.

5) With the nano change and a slight.... yes slight... agility boost to gallente, gallente would have a chance to get into range and actually be useful. Maybe even give them a slight web bonus to help hold targets.

6) With webs I agree going all the way back to 90% may be too much. However making them 75-80% wouldnt be too bad I think. Plus give gallente a small rnage bonus, not as large as a bhaalgorns per say but somewhere in between. Remember Gallente is gun boat race without gun range bonuses for most of their ships... even the rohk is better at hybrids for range than a mega.

Anyways all these points are meant to promote pilot skill. This game is far too dependant on numbers. In call of duty give me 5 guys with years of experience against 20 guys that just started the game. The 5 guys would win, however in eve the 20 would win because they simply have more. I really think we need to bring back some changes that promote pilot skill and good teamwork.

WildCat


I don't know that I'd agree to much speed increase changes again; even with those changes to missile speed you proposed, high speeds would almost totally negate the damage even if they did manage to hit the target before they ran out of flight time. And that's just missiles.

As to your last point I do agree that experienced pilots should be able to use their knowledge of mechanics to overcome a larger group of inexperienced players, and this sometimes happens to some degree. I don't know if enhancing the speed mechanic again is the answer to that, however. I'd propose moving the minumim 'warp to gangmate' distance to 200-250k. Makes the blob less effective and your speed as it is now more effective; you gain room to manuever and possibly kill the poor fools that pull away from the main group. Probably would be about as popular as your suggestion Laughing.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:34:00 - [38]
 

I don't think we can "re-nano". After all Minmatar ships are still OP...Laughing

But i do think it's kinda boring how effectively shear numbers counter actual piloting skills in EVE...

And yes, capitals are overpowered (aka i-win button) when hot-dropped vs. smaller stuff, and no, they don't need to be tackling for themselves to do that...they can easily have a couple of recons and RR the hell out of them.

Carriers are also over-powered when doing station games, Repping pirating BSs(or smaller stuff) that then brag for their BC ranking etc.

The cyno-mule limitations for ppl using them within their Sov regions, with cyno beacons and JBs is also non-existent.

My on-the-spot thinking for it?
Caps - actually carriers and super carriers, but Titans too to some extend - are to effective outside their "siege/triage" modes, and that is too much for ships being immune to ewar etc (for the supercaps), but also unrealistic for carriers which can sit out of a POS or Station and Assign fighters etc...it's to risk free for the power those field.

So what is limiting Super Caps, or even regular Carriers? Very few stuff, unlike their 1st paradigm, the Dreads, which are now underutilized because of their un-sieged performance?

Only cost, right? So who is richer, has the i-win button, as it takes either way more peeps to kill under VERY special circumstances, and/or equally rich ppl under very special circumstances, involving Lag, traitors in the enemy lines etc...

Too boring and whichever skill is involved, is too meta-oriented...


Probable Solution:
I would SERIOUSLY nerf the Fighter/Fighter bomber dmg just like RR abilities of carriers/moms that are NOT in some short of siege/triage mode.

It's too powerful to have the firepower of several BSs and the RR projection (range + amount) of several Logis.
You can give the pain - but not from the other end of the system "hiding", you can heal like a Demi-God etc, but not all at the same time, while also fielding a massive local tank.

You would have to choose, and "pay" if you chose wrong.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2011.03.01 19:40:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Diomidis
I don't think we can "re-nano". After all Minmatar ships are still OP...Laughing


actually the last nano nerf made minmatar ship shine more because back in the days alot of HACs were used to nano nano-sac nano-zealot nano-ishtar were all commonly used in nanogangs now the only viable ships are the vagabond and the cynabal

Holdout
Posted - 2011.03.01 21:58:00 - [40]
 

Nano-god, I'm nano-sick of the nano-word nano.

Nano?

Nano.

Aenachreon
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:02:00 - [41]
 


There has never been a real "iWin" button in EVE. Things have always been unbalanced one way or another, but never enough for something to be invulnerable or unbeatable.


Oh, I dunno about that...carriers right after Red Moon Rising?

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:08:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Diomidis
I don't think we can "re-nano". After all Minmatar ships are still OP...Laughing


actually the last nano nerf made minmatar ship shine more because back in the days alot of HACs were used to nano nano-sac nano-zealot nano-ishtar were all commonly used in nanogangs now the only viable ships are the vagabond and the cynabal


Well, yes...but remember that all that Vaga-whines where vs. a much weaker ship, dealing less than 200dps, as only your drones could hit reliably, and you had to slow down to half your speed (like 3,500 m/s lulz) to get some hits with your D180s and barrage :P...

Surely pulsing your MWD then was too easy tho, as each cycle could give you enough momentum for you to maintain several seconds with the MWD off :P

Now with TEs and ammo boosts, a 6-7km vaga would be crazy - maybe a 2.5-3km sec Cane even worse!

Even with Web being boosted and scrams at their current state, you still would need really fast (not nano, don't go emo on me) Rapiers / Huginns and maybe an Arazu / Lache at minimum to kill it...

So again, it's a minie vs. minie thing...at least now we have Drakes too...
Don't get me wrong - i like fast drakes and i fly them in PVP as mych as i fly canes - if you boost HMLs enough to reliably (read "just as hard") hit Vagas and canes doing 1.5-2 times what they do now (and frigs respectfully) i would follow. Laughing

fkingfurious
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:51:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: fkingfurious on 01/03/2011 22:52:01
I've never understood why people seem to think that 5 should be able to engage 20 and get anything other than completely ****ed.

The assumption appears to be that because a group has 20 pilots they are immediately less skilled than the group of 5 pilots. This is clearly bull****.
The old "Nano Age" was one of the worst points in Eve's chequered past. It didn't offer diversity, nano was THE ONLY way to fly. Speed was all that mattered. There was no effective counter to speed except more speed. The standard of measurement for a ships quality was how fgast it could go. If it didn't do 4km/s it was a bad ship, end of argument.

If I have 20 experiecned pilots in a well balanced fleet of 20 why should 5 experienced pilots feel they have the right to be able to engage and win? The only way the 5 man group should get anywhere is if the group of 20 are stupid.

Eve is already resplendent with ways to punish the stupid, we don't need to go back to ridiculous stone age nano ***gotry.



Industrialist12
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:56:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: fkingfurious
Edited by: fkingfurious on 01/03/2011 22:52:01

The old "Nano Age" was one of the worst points in Eve's chequered past. It didn't offer diversity, nano was THE ONLY way to fly. Speed was all that mattered. There was no effective counter to speed except more speed.




Sounds an awful lot like eve now doesn't it? There's no diversity to eve now...Drake, Maelstrom and Scimitar is all you see. Blobbing is THE ONLY way to fly. Numbers is all that matters. There's no effective counter to a blob except a bigger blob.

I hope you see what i did there, and what i'm getting at...

fkingfurious
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:57:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Industrialist12
Originally by: fkingfurious
Edited by: fkingfurious on 01/03/2011 22:52:01

The old "Nano Age" was one of the worst points in Eve's chequered past. It didn't offer diversity, nano was THE ONLY way to fly. Speed was all that mattered. There was no effective counter to speed except more speed.




Sounds an awful lot like eve now doesn't it? There's no diversity to eve now...Drake, Maelstrom and Scimitar is all you see. Blobbing is THE ONLY way to fly. Numbers is all that matters. There's no effective counter to a blob except a bigger blob.

I hope you see what i did there, and what i'm getting at...


What you did was avoid the point.

If you have 200 experienced pilots and I have 300 experienced pilots why on earth should you expect to win?

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.03.01 22:58:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 01/03/2011 23:02:22
Originally by: To mare

actually the last nano nerf made minmatar ship shine more because back in the days alot of HACs were used to nano nano-sac nano-zealot nano-ishtar were all commonly used in nanogangs now the only viable ships are the vagabond and the cynabal


Nah, there are a lot of viable ships for fast skirmish gangs. It doesnt need to be insanely fast, as long as it can do around 2kms and has some ranged damage its fine.

Different people run them with different doctrines which obviously does impact ship selection, my personal preference is a solid mix of HACs and Recons. You do not necessarily need logistics but they obviously dont hurt either and enable you to fight under sentry fire better.

A combination of Lachesis', Curses, Huginns, Vagabonds or Cynabals, Ishtars or Gilas, Scimitars can be forged into a very effective group.

Range control is a big asset, good Curse/Huginn pilots will be able to shield your fleet with their ewar, Lachs keep your targets pointed from a safe distance while the damage dealers skip into range and back to safety to do their work.

Using that ewar and your fleets mobility to your advantage allows you to take on gangs with much more direct firepower than your own. Success varies depending on enemy composition though, the above example works excellent against turret based BC groups.

Industrialist12
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:04:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: fkingfurious
Originally by: Industrialist12
Originally by: fkingfurious
Edited by: fkingfurious on 01/03/2011 22:52:01

The old "Nano Age" was one of the worst points in Eve's chequered past. It didn't offer diversity, nano was THE ONLY way to fly. Speed was all that mattered. There was no effective counter to speed except more speed.




Sounds an awful lot like eve now doesn't it? There's no diversity to eve now...Drake, Maelstrom and Scimitar is all you see. Blobbing is THE ONLY way to fly. Numbers is all that matters. There's no effective counter to a blob except a bigger blob.

I hope you see what i did there, and what i'm getting at...


What you did was avoid the point.

If you have 200 experienced pilots and I have 300 experienced pilots why on earth should you expect to win?


Nobody does, however if you have 20 relative newbies vs 10 experienced players, the odds are heavily stacked. Right now, skill means almost nothing, just that you can fit full t2 to your drake, as opposed to best named, and then die a horrible death because they have more numbers. Nano allowed those with real skill to out-play others.

I'm not saying bring Nano ships back exactly as they were, but something needs to change.

BTW, when nanos were popular, i couldn't use them, and with all the recent changes, they would be a lot more vulnerable then they were then.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:16:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Industrialist12
Originally by: fkingfurious
Edited by: fkingfurious on 01/03/2011 22:52:01

The old "Nano Age" was one of the worst points in Eve's chequered past. It didn't offer diversity, nano was THE ONLY way to fly. Speed was all that mattered. There was no effective counter to speed except more speed.




Sounds an awful lot like eve now doesn't it? There's no diversity to eve now...Drake, Maelstrom and Scimitar is all you see. Blobbing is THE ONLY way to fly. Numbers is all that matters. There's no effective counter to a blob except a bigger blob.

I hope you see what i did there, and what i'm getting at...


There is plenty of diversity Now. You can't blame people being lemmings on the game.

Really.. how long has drakes, maels, and shield fleets been popular?

All it takes is a notable alliance raping someone with an army of brutix, used the right way with the right support in stunning winning fashion to create interest in such, and change. Its happened time and again in such manners.. having nothing to do with any huge patch/expansion dynamic.

Cause its not like there is EVER going to be some miracle Cormorant pulling off anything special.. cause it has this stigma tied to its name..

But.. **** happens because it can and people make it happen.

Nano-age is like this.. two way street. There is nothing inbetween being locked down dead.. or having everyones game mechanics broken to **** dps with higher ehp than before. It is one or the other way more often than not. Atleast now there is a chunky middle between such that creates exceptional diversity.. IF.. people imploy it properly. More fitting options and ship design choices than before.

And as far as I'm concerned.. as the Great One says, know your Role and Shut your mouth. In that being, if you're a small group/fleet/gang/corp/alliance.. no.. you are most likely not going to beat larger groups. Working as intended. Get more if you want More.

I'm sick of people trying to get CCP to penalize others for accomplishing what they have not. Bigger ships, Bigger fleets = Bigger sections of space and control. Sounds perfectly logical to me.

fkingfurious
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:16:00 - [49]
 

But here is the important point.

20 newbies will already get owned by 10 experienced pilots. The very nature of Eve and the way every single bonus in the game works means that higher (relevant) SP pilots have an easily quantifiable advantage over newer pilots. Quite literally they have 10% more falloff, 5% more speed etc etc.
Once you factor in pilot skill as well 2:1 or 3:! odds arent that daunting.

Back in the nano age SPEED WAS ALL THAT MATTERED. SP and experience was almost irrelevant as long as you had the fastest ship with the right mods and anyone that claims otherwise is just an embittered "Elite" PvPer who wont face up to the fact that maybe, just MAYBE the reason they can no longer run riot is because the knowledge and skilbase of the players is going up.

Look at Garmon. That guy still runs ramapant.

Maybe Wildcat and all the others begging for the return to nano stupidness should just face up to the fact that the aren't as good as they think they are.

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:17:00 - [50]
 

Please remeber that there are many more ways to counter them in todays game than the game of two years ago. It will not be the same, but would still offer variety.

Industrialist12
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:23:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: fkingfurious
But here is the important point.

20 newbies will already get owned by 10 experienced pilots. The very nature of Eve and the way every single bonus in the game works means that higher (relevant) SP pilots have an easily quantifiable advantage over newer pilots. Quite literally they have 10% more falloff, 5% more speed etc etc.
Once you factor in pilot skill as well 2:1 or 3:! odds arent that daunting.

Back in the nano age SPEED WAS ALL THAT MATTERED. SP and experience was almost irrelevant as long as you had the fastest ship with the right mods and anyone that claims otherwise is just an embittered "Elite" PvPer who wont face up to the fact that maybe, just MAYBE the reason they can no longer run riot is because the knowledge and skilbase of the players is going up.

Look at Garmon. That guy still runs ramapant.

Maybe Wildcat and all the others begging for the return to nano stupidness should just face up to the fact that the aren't as good as they think they are.


So your saying that the 8% Damage/RoF increase you get from having XXX Spec IV is enough to offset the fact that there's 2 ships shooting you? Really? As soon as they get a point/web on you, your going to die, regardless of what your in, No amount of skill can compare to just having more numbers. In a fleet fight, does the side that has Artillery Spec V win or does the side that has 100 more members?

As for Garmon, yes he does, and if you'll notice how he does it...Overly expensive ships(in the order of multi-billions) with a max skilled gang booster in a t3. Now how many people do you know that have that kind of isk to throw around on pvp?

Nobody wants nano to return exactly as it were, but speed and distance needs to play a more important role in pvp then it does now. What we have now is just a knife fight, and whoever brought more knives wins.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:36:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 01/03/2011 23:39:05
Edited by: Target Painter on 01/03/2011 23:38:41
Originally by: Industrialist12
Sounds an awful lot like eve now doesn't it? There's no diversity to eve now...Drake, Maelstrom and Scimitar is all you see. Blobbing is THE ONLY way to fly. Numbers is all that matters. There's no effective counter to a blob except a bigger blob.


You also see Abaddon fleets with Guardians, Abaddon fleets supported by carriers, Zealot gangs (both snipe and afterburner variety), Muninn gangs, etc. People actually, on occasion, roam in armor tanked ships!

Originally by: Industrialist12
In a fleet fight, does the side that has Artillery Spec V win or does the side that has 100 more members?


Well the DRF won several battles against the NC, outnumbered, using Abaddons with capital support. PL beat the NC silly for literal months, in a variety of fleet comps, never having a numerical advantage. DarkSide routinely takes on 100+ with only 20 in gang and comes out on top, most times. Black Legion regularly holds all of Geminate hostage the same time every night in Muninns.

Quote:
As for Garmon, yes he does, and if you'll notice how he does it...Overly expensive ships(in the order of multi-billions) with a max skilled gang booster in a t3. Now how many people do you know that have that kind of isk to throw around on pvp?


Max skilled booster alts get sold for as low as 7 or 8 billion. The T3 itself is (at absolutely most) 800 million. Neither are that expensive.

Given your comments, I'm lead to assume you fancy yourself as one of the high-skill/high SP PvPers who should be able to beat the blob, but can't because you are actually as bad as them at the game.

Industrialist12
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:44:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Target Painter

You also see Abaddon fleets with Guardians, Abaddon fleets supported by carriers, Zealot gangs (both snipe and afterburner variety), Muninn gangs, etc. People actually, on occasion, roam in armor tanked ships!


You might see them, but then you might also see a fleet of Bellicose and scythes. Drake/scimitar/maelstrom is the mainstay of any alliance fleet for a reason.

Quote:
Well the DRF won several battles against the NC, outnumbered, using Abaddons with capital support. PL beat the NC silly for literal months, in a variety of fleet comps, never having a numerical advantage.


Out-numbered, but not out-gunned. PL very well could be the exception, since i've seen them get very creative with their fleets to great effect.

But ^^^^^^^^^^^ this seems like a discussion more suited for CAOD. Back to nanos!

Quote:
Max skilled booster alts get sold for as low as 7 or 8 billion. The T3 itself is (at absolutely most) 800 million. Neither are that expensive.


Going by Eve-board(i know a vast majority of players don't have accs on there...), of the thousands of characters on there, only 117 have over 8b in their wallet(i know i know). So no, that's really not a low number for the vast majority of eve players.

Ticarus Hellbrandt
Posted - 2011.03.02 00:15:00 - [54]
 

game is very much cookie cutter now, bring onm the nano age 2

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.02 01:36:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: DHB WildCat
Alright as much as I hate to say it.... its time to bring back the nano ships and webs.

Lets face it. This is game is ever changing and tbh its one of its best qualities. So in light of the game as it is today I really believe we need to bring about the nano age part2.

Why?

Capitals Online... Its fact folks. Everyone has a capital... the best strategy these days for a small gang is hot drop them! Im not even close to kidding about that.

So nano ships would give the pilots the ability to get away from ships they have zero hope of killing, and pls dont say just to counter hot drop, that rediculous and I know most of you are thinking that, stop for a second and think about that!

So if you bring back the nanos, then obviously you have to have a way to catch them.... thus the webs would come back....

Zomg with the webs back, gallente would then be usefull again! Well its an idea to bring back small gang warfare and the gallente race as a whole!

Wild


The entire "universe" of "EVE" conceived around 4 races, whenever one of those is overpowerd (minmatar) or one is underpowerd (gallente) there is no equilibrium.

Look at the killmails ranks, ships destroyed. Ships mostly used etc etc.

There is a huge symptom of very bad choices to keep this equilibrium and I have my own idea has any one can(and pretty sure has a fact).
Shouldn't the difficulty grow whenever you progress? whenever you get stronger? whenever it gets expensive?

Search the error, search the mistakes, search for the single interests and you'l find the answer..

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.02 07:38:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 02/03/2011 07:47:11
Originally by: Industrialist12
You might see them, but then you might also see a fleet of Bellicose and scythes. Drake/scimitar/maelstrom is the mainstay of any alliance fleet for a reason.


Half of all the 0.0 alliances run AHACs and/or armor BS. Drake is a dead/dying doctrine because BSes tear them apart.

Quote:
Out-numbered, but not out-gunned.


Triage carriers are not a "gun" and they don't make up for being solidly outnumbered by 2 to 1 in battleships.

Quote:
But ^^^^^^^^^^^ this seems like a discussion more suited for CAOD. Back to nanos!


I'm discussing viable, non-nano comps that are battle-tested against the blob.

Quote:
Going by Eve-board(i know a vast majority of players don't have accs on there...), of the thousands of characters on there, only 117 have over 8b in their wallet(i know i know). So no, that's really not a low number for the vast majority of eve players.


I'm not sure how common a practice it is, but I have a isk-holder toon. Keeps me from getting scammed out of billions and billions from clicking the wrong contract. I've made about 6B this month from briefly milking a C5 WH, 0.0 mission running and incursions. Admittedly, I've been carebearing my ass off, but it's doable as long as you know where the isk fountains are.

Any serious corp (and by serious, I mean self-sufficient isk wise) shouldn't have a problem scraping together 10B in the same timeframe and getting the CEO or the most active director a leadership toon and T3 to go along with it. At this point, there is just no excuse for not having it.

At any rate, saying, "we only have speed and need more of it!" is just begging for the practical immunity of the nano-era. It was too much of a good thing, CCP nerfed the **** out of it for incredibly good reasons and everyone except the people who had their pet mechanic taken away was happy.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.03.02 10:59:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 02/03/2011 11:01:40

Originally by: Industrialist12

As for Garmon, yes he does, and if you'll notice how he does it...Overly expensive ships(in the order of multi-billions) with a max skilled gang booster in a t3. Now how many people do you know that have that kind of isk to throw around on pvp?


People use expensive gear just to have more fun than they could with plain tech2. At least I do it solely for this reason. It's very stupid to think they can't win otherwise or that isk alone can let you engage 1 vs 10-15. Go ahead - through in some isk and do it yourself then. Earning isk has never been that easy as it is now, there are more multibillionaires then ever (hint: check supercaps number and the amount of farmers being suicide ganked in hi-sec), yet there are very few daring to field regular expensive ships which supposedly guarantee success.

The skill always comes first in this regard, don't fool yourself.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.02 11:11:00 - [58]
 

In the nano era you had to use loads of ISK to be competetive in solo/small gang pvp. I started solo pvp'ing in that time without too much isk, and there was no diversity if you remove the suicide gangs, nano was the only thing happening. If you werent in a nano'd ship yourself you died. There were no counters on small gang/solo scale to nano besides more nano (rapiers/curses were also nanod, kinda like they still are but without the snake sets) and their stupidity (I killed two rapiers in dual rep myrms when they somehow decided being within 10km of their target was the place to be in a rapier). Now speed is fine, it reduces incoming damage, it gives gtfo ability, but it does not give invulnerability to everything except faster nanos/nano blobs.

And isnt the NC/DC like only entity focussing on the maelstroms? If you think they are the only ones used (with drakes) you really should check other areas. I know from several groups that use regular abaddons as their normal fleet ships, and then of course you also got artie abaddons, hacs, etc.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.02 18:34:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 02/03/2011 22:01:43
Well as I remember I had to read crap like this.

Originally by: CCP Nozh
Close range tracking, blasters, webbies, etc.

- Disabling the MWD + -60% speed reduction is far more effective than the old -90% webifier. This of course only applies to MWD targets. Afterburner targets will be less vulnerable to close range damage dealing ships, but that's part of the change, the verity. Smaller faster moving targets will have a better chance of evading death, but I'm sure drones on blaster boats will come in handy here.

We're also considering on removing the stacking penalty from stasis webifiers, but that really comes down to testing.

We'll keep a close eye on this when it hits SISI.


The last comment is actually funny since everything Nozh did was trolling us(nobody can be this stupid) about med gun BS and putting ECM in your mids after hundreds of pages where tons of blaster pilots told him he is ******ed and should try to play the ****ing game he was in charge to balance.

Sure, go ahead. Remove the mwd off effect from scrams to.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.03.02 18:42:00 - [60]
 

Not this nonsense again. Please stop

-THC Rabidcat


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