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Denevive Hadah
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:35:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Grumpymunky
You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is.
Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss.


isk sink means when its removed from the game.

I.E. like the cost to set up an Alliance.

if you pay 12mil to get a platinum insurance of 50 mil. and then your ship goes boom. 38mil has now been introduced into the system that did not exist previously.

Mission running, bounties, and all those types of activities create isk. If left unchecked economy would spiral out of control due to inflation. Hence taxes and whatever.

The ship losses made it so the people involved lost the isk in their pockets. But it was still kept in the game.

It did stimulate the player based economy to mine and build more to meet up with new demands, which is fine.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.03.01 23:40:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 23:51:01

Originally by: Grumpymunky
You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is.
Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss.


ISK lost from personal wallet that does not go to anyone else is ISK "lost" from the game. This is an ISK sink as the ISK is no longer with-in the economy.


Platinum Insurance on a Hulk cost $11,715,694.80 at this moment

The payout on that insurance is $39,052,316.00

That leaves $27,336,621.20 (after insurance cost) in your wallet if you insure a Hulk and it gets blown up.

The current Jita price of a Hulk is 171 million ISK.

That means Just on the ship hull alone $143,663,378.80 is no longer in the game at "todays" current prices for every Hulk that was exploded.

That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet, its gone (bye,bye) went down the drain into you guessed it.. A ISK sink.

It does not matter if 27 million was generated by NPC insurance, because over all there was a net "loss" of ISK from the eve economy. This doesn't even get into the rigs or mods that are not dropped when the ship goes boom.

That sir is most certainly a player driven ISK sink.

Sporked
Posted - 2011.03.02 00:19:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Sporked on 02/03/2011 00:25:37
Originally by: Mutnin
Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 23:51:01

Originally by: Grumpymunky
You don't seem to know what an ISK sink is.
Hint: No one cares about your own personal loss.


ISK lost from personal wallet that does not go to anyone else is ISK "lost" from the game. This is an ISK sink as the ISK is no longer with-in the economy.


Platinum Insurance on a Hulk cost $11,715,694.80 at this moment

The payout on that insurance is $39,052,316.00

That leaves $27,336,621.20 (after insurance cost) in your wallet if you insure a Hulk and it gets blown up.

The current Jita price of a Hulk is 171 million ISK.

That means Just on the ship hull alone $143,663,378.80 is no longer in the game at "todays" current prices for every Hulk that was exploded.

That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet, its gone (bye,bye) went down the drain into you guessed it.. A ISK sink.

It does not matter if 27 million was generated by NPC insurance, because over all there was a net "loss" of ISK from the eve economy. This doesn't even get into the rigs or mods that are not dropped when the ship goes boom.

That sir is most certainly a player driven ISK sink.



ISK no remove from game! No is ISK sink! Your example is that of a personal loss to your own wallet, the missing amount you are looking for is sat in the wallet of the Hulk seller.

Example using nice round example prices so your limited intelligence can follow:

Hulk = 100m
Insurance fee = 10m
Payout = 30m

100m goes to another player so ISK is not lost, it just changes hands. 10m is now paid to NPC insurance corp, 10m leaves the game forever. Hulk is then violenced and explodes, generating 30m from nowhere. This 30m is a greater value than the 10m that disappeared therefore 30-10=20, 20m ISK was ADDED to the EVE economy which would make it an ISK faucet not a sink. Now if the insurance expired on the Hulk without incident, then yes it would be an ISK sink of 10m. However, every time a payout of value greater than that of the initial insurance cost occurs then the vanished ISK is invalidated as money has been created from nowhere, thus it is a faucet not a sink.

Comprende?

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.02 00:28:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Fu Thing
It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason


nobody cares about that half of the world, unless you're going to brazil for easy dark skinned lady(boys).

Grumpymunky
Posted - 2011.03.02 01:25:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Mutnin

That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet

Actually, it did.
You don't seriously believe that hulk was bought from an NPC do you? Confused

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.02 01:41:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Sporked
ISK no remove from game! No is ISK sink! Your example is that of a personal loss to your own wallet, the missing amount you are looking for is sat in the wallet of the Hulk seller.

Example using nice round example prices so your limited intelligence can follow:

Hulk = 100m
Insurance fee = 10m
Payout = 30m


I want to ask if you're serious.. or if you are pretending to be a caveman. but assuming you are serious.. Sad

The loss comes where the player has to cough up more money to replace the ship than he was reimbursed for the loss.. this is money that he either doesn't have or money that he has to allocate from other projects.. yes. it's an isk sink.. I'm sure after you get into high school you'll learn some math and logic skills so you can figure this out.




Grumpymunky
Posted - 2011.03.02 01:58:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Barbara Nichole
The loss comes where the player has to cough up more money to replace the ship than he was reimbursed for the loss.. this is money that he either doesn't have or money that he has to allocate from other projects.. yes. it's an isk sink..

Someone else confusing personal loss with an isk sink.

ISK removed from EVE's overall economy: isk sink
ISK transferred from one player to another: NOT an isk sink

For instance, if you were to transfer all of your isk to me (and for example's sake, I suggest you do this immediately) you might feel the loss in your own wallet, but isk has neither been created nor destroyed. This is not an isk sink, nor is any other transaction between players, aside from the ~1% transaction taxes and broker fees.

Vak Keelin
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.02 02:27:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
Edited by: Mutnin on 01/03/2011 23:51:01


Platinum Insurance on a Hulk cost $11,715,694.80 at this moment

The payout on that insurance is $39,052,316.00

That leaves $27,336,621.20 (after insurance cost) in your wallet if you insure a Hulk and it gets blown up.

The current Jita price of a Hulk is 171 million ISK.

That means Just on the ship hull alone $143,663,378.80 is no longer in the game at "todays" current prices for every Hulk that was exploded.

That negative 143 million did not go into some other guys wallet, its gone (bye,bye) went down the drain into you guessed it.. A ISK sink.

It does not matter if 27 million was generated by NPC insurance, because over all there was a net "loss" of ISK from the eve economy. This doesn't even get into the rigs or mods that are not dropped when the ship goes boom.

That sir is most certainly a player driven ISK sink.



Incorrect.

Money transferred from one player by the sale of a product or service does not create an ISK sink because the ISK did not leave the game. It only changed hands from one player to another.

ISK paid in taxes or to insurance or to any other NPC entity is a sink because that ISK does leave the game. See the difference.

Therefore losing a ship that was built with regenerating minerals by a player does not cause a sink due to the fact that the seller now has the cash in his wallet.

What did happen is that all of the insurance payment sinks to NPCís were wiped away by larger insurance payouts from the same NPC entities, creating more ISK then originally existed. Therefore there is now more ISK in the economy of eve due to hulkaggeddon then there was before it began.

By your own numbers, over 27 million ISK is generated into the overall economy with the destruction of every insured hulk not even counting that which is generated by the gankers themselves.

It really isnít that difficult to understand.

Sporked
Posted - 2011.03.02 02:34:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Sporked on 02/03/2011 02:47:06
Edited by: Sporked on 02/03/2011 02:44:11
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Originally by: Sporked
ISK no remove from game! No is ISK sink! Your example is that of a personal loss to your own wallet, the missing amount you are looking for is sat in the wallet of the Hulk seller.

Example using nice round example prices so your limited intelligence can follow:

Hulk = 100m
Insurance fee = 10m
Payout = 30m


I want to ask if you're serious.. or if you are pretending to be a caveman. but assuming you are serious.. Sad

The loss comes where the player has to cough up more money to replace the ship than he was reimbursed for the loss.. this is money that he either doesn't have or money that he has to allocate from other projects.. yes. it's an isk sink.. I'm sure after you get into high school you'll learn some math and logic skills so you can figure this out.






I refer you to your own comment. I also suggest you look up the definitions of both ISK sink and ISK faucet, re-read your post then realise what an utter tit you just made of yourself.

Just for future reference - ISK sink ≠ money leaving your wallet, an ISK sink is money being artificially removed from the game into a bottomless void. An ISK faucet is money being injected into the economy via said bottomless void. Basically, any time you fulfill an NPC buy order, receive an insurance payout, or any other NPC initiated transaction that is a credit to your wallet (including mission rewards and CONCORD bounties, not to be confused with player generated bounties) that is an ISK faucet as money has been created where none existed before. Every time you pay a bill, are fined for carrying contraband, insure your ships or any other transaction that involves a debit from your wallet to an NPC you utilising an ISK sink as the money is being removed from player circulation. Anything that does not match either of those definitions is not, suprise suprise, an ISK sink or faucet.

Feel free to keep arguing with me, I'll just continue to point out the glaring mistakes in your smug replies. Always awesome when people try and talk down to me then get proven utterly wrong.

Edit:- It's 2.45am, typos and rambling are permitted by law.

D'Kelle
Posted - 2011.03.02 06:32:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Fu Thing
Don't know what the reasons are, maybe it is the API key thing, but the numbers are seriously down even with all the new categories of ships that were added to the event. It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason. I mined ice most of the last weekend and nobody even tried to gank me. Two of these events a year is overkill, especially if the bloodbath turns out to be a blood sprinkle.

Good luck though. This event must be a monster to put together. I can only admire the energy of the creators.


Like a lot of thigs in EVE' folks get bored after a while with the same old thing, I supose there will always be a few die hards or new folks joining the event, but if there is not enough actual upgrade content i.e. challenge within the event it becomes "samey" just like missions did, for me it has become no more effort or fun than the concept of going out & doing a level one mission in BS; & not being a DEV Helicity can't add actual content or greater depth of challenge, shame realy; Sorry m8 but I wont be bothering sorting an alt to run with it next time; it was good though the first time or two around, shame really it just felt a bit dull this time, maybe the greater the target scope the less effort or whatever, not realy sure. If you can improve it I'll consider trying it again but if not, nah!

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.03.02 13:16:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 02/03/2011 13:21:25
Originally by: Vak Keelin

Incorrect.

Money transferred from one player by the sale of a product or service does not create an ISK sink because the ISK did not leave the game. It only changed hands from one player to another.

ISK paid in taxes or to insurance or to any other NPC entity is a sink because that ISK does leave the game. See the difference.

Therefore losing a ship that was built with regenerating minerals by a player does not cause a sink due to the fact that the seller now has the cash in his wallet.

What did happen is that all of the insurance payment sinks to NPCís were wiped away by larger insurance payouts from the same NPC entities, creating more ISK then originally existed. Therefore there is now more ISK in the economy of eve due to hulkaggeddon then there was before it began.

By your own numbers, over 27 million ISK is generated into the overall economy with the destruction of every insured hulk not even counting that which is generated by the gankers themselves.

It really isnít that difficult to understand.



I understand where you are coming from as you are looking at just the actual ISK that is floating around. The point I was getting at, is I look at a ship as having a ISK value much like a commodity.

Meaning that ship that was blown up still had a ISK value that is no longer in the game. Yes when the hulk was originally created & sold the ISK was transferred along the way to various people for the ship and it's components.

This of course is producing ISK out of thin air so to speak, but in the end that ISK ends up in various peoples wallets and a new ship which has ISK value is created. Once that ship is lost that value of the ship/mod rig what ever is also lost.

You are looking at the strictest form of a ISK sink, but I'm looking at the entire chain. ISK is lost from the eve economy in the form of a commodity that held a value in ISK. It does not matter if someone was paid for that commodity at some point, because the value of it is lost and has to be recreated to replace it.

Like it or not all ISK in EVE is in someone's wallet, so claiming a individuals ISK lost from their personal wallet is not a sink is not correct. If something is destroyed that holds a ISK value, that is lost ISK regardless if ISK had been transferred for the object in the past as the object still held a ISK value that is lost.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.03.02 13:19:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 02/03/2011 13:27:13
I think the confusion in terms is that the item values at 155M isk or so has been removed from the economy even though the isk itself changed hands. So, ...

Player A through spending isk or time builds a Hulk, values at 155M.
Player B has 165M isk we'll say.
Total isk + assets 320M.

Player B buys Hulk from Player A and insures it.

Player A has 155M Isk (minus taxes/fees)
Player B has 0 isk and a 155M Hulk insured for 10M (165M investment). (Equipping not being counted at this time)
Total isk + assets still 320M.

Player B has Hulk destroyed, collects 30M insurance.

Player A has 155M (again, minus taxes/fees)
Player B has 30M and tears.
Total isk + assets 185M.

End result... the isk total increased to 185M (20M increase), however a 155M item was removed from the ecomony. The combined values of the isk + items between the two players has gone down by 135M.

Technically both sides are right, it's merely a matter of semantics. Do you mean isk as in "only isk" or isk as in the combined values of isk + items?

Edit... numbers were borked.

Fah Qu
Posted - 2011.03.02 15:11:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 02/03/2011 13:27:13
I think the confusion in terms is that the item values at 155M isk or so has been removed from the economy even though the isk itself changed hands. So, ...

Player A through spending isk or time builds a Hulk, values at 155M.
Player B has 165M isk we'll say.
Total isk + assets 320M.

Player B buys Hulk from Player A and insures it.

Player A has 155M Isk (minus taxes/fees)
Player B has 0 isk and a 155M Hulk insured for 10M (165M investment). (Equipping not being counted at this time)
Total isk + assets still 320M.

Player B has Hulk destroyed, collects 30M insurance.

Player A has 155M (again, minus taxes/fees)
Player B has 30M and tears.
Total isk + assets 185M.

End result... the isk total increased to 185M (20M increase), however a 155M item was removed from the ecomony. The combined values of the isk + items between the two players has gone down by 135M.

Technically both sides are right, it's merely a matter of semantics. Do you mean isk as in "only isk" or isk as in the combined values of isk + items?

Edit... numbers were borked.


And that would be correct if the ore was only a limited supply and nonrenewable, the problem is that it's introduced to the game like bounties from rats, it's a faucet on it's own. And in that case the hulk has no real value other than the time it took to make it, not real isk

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.03.02 19:27:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Fah Qu


And that would be correct if the ore was only a limited supply and nonrenewable, the problem is that it's introduced to the game like bounties from rats, it's a faucet on it's own. And in that case the hulk has no real value other than the time it took to make it, not real isk


Time has to be of some value or everything in EVE would be free... If you get right down to it, everything in this game that is created comes from nothing but time spent to create it or get the stuff to create it. Meaning time = ISK.

Khory Thunderstar
The Single Scam
Posted - 2011.03.02 20:16:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Fu Thing
It's summer now in half the world so I'm not buying that as a reason


nobody cares about that half of the world, unless you're going to brazil for easy dark skinned lady(boys).


Or you live in this hellhole

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.03 06:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Grumpymunky

ISK removed from EVE's overall economy: isk sink
ISK transferred from one player to another: NOT an isk sink



with all due respect...Rolling Eyes
you're wrong.. the money removed from the player in this case is money removed from the game.

Vak Keelin
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.03 07:07:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Originally by: Grumpymunky

ISK removed from EVE's overall economy: isk sink
ISK transferred from one player to another: NOT an isk sink



with all due respect...Rolling Eyes
you're wrong.. the money removed from the player in this case is money removed from the game.


I wasn't going to pursue this farther but I have to ask how so? If I were to buy a hulk from you and self destruct as soon as I undock don't you still have the 150mil +/- I gave you for it?

The only thing that is actually taken out of the game are the minerals used to build it and those minerals regenerate so fast that not all of it ever gets mined.

Does the transaction stimulate the economy? yes. does it cause ISK to leave the game? Id have to have that explained.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.03.07 10:12:00 - [48]
 

ITT; successful trolls are successful, and isk sinks is monkey business

Grumpymunky
Posted - 2011.03.07 14:58:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Misanth
monkey business

Razz


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