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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.02.25 22:13:00 - [1]
 

Hi all,

My corp mate says agility won't get you into warp faster, it only makes you turn thus align faster but won't get you to 70% any faster.

I think it also makes you accelerate faster so you're getting into warp faster once aligned.

Who's right?

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.02.25 22:17:00 - [2]
 

you

Estel Arador
Posted - 2011.02.25 23:22:00 - [3]
 

Agility indeed also affects acceleration.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.26 01:07:00 - [4]
 

The question is a bit confused because it sounds like both you and your corp mate is operating on a flawed notion of what "aligned" means.

Yes, agility lets you turn around faster.
Yes, agility also lets you accelerate to 75% max speed (the warp threshold) faster.

However, being aligned means you're already moving in the right direction, so the acceleration time should be rather inconsequential. I suppose you could argue that it's a matter of degrees — if you're moving in the right direction at 20% max speed, you're "kind-of-aligned" — in which case, sure, agility helps you reach those remaining 55% more quickly… but why would you do that?

Trying to separate the two is… conceptually difficult. You can't do one without doing the other if your ship is already moving around.

There's only one clear situation when you can point to one and not the other: the acceleration part of warping most obviously comes into play, on its own, when trying to get into warp from a stationary position. At that point, you have no direction to change — the turn-around time is zero, even if the graphical representation of your ship might suggest otherwise — so all that needs to be done is reach the threshold speed, and high agility certainly helps there.

Eternal Noob
Posted - 2011.02.26 02:47:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Eternal Noob on 26/02/2011 02:47:21
I raised a topic called What is "agility"? and basically got the answer "it decreases the time that it takes your ship to gain a new vector-to-target". You can search my name for topics started and see the minutiae there. But basically you can gain the target vector faster, yet your current ship velocity and vector are still affected by inertia that's mainly dictated by the ship itself.

Oh, some people made some really 'clever' DnD jokes HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.02.26 07:24:00 - [6]
 

Agility reduces the inertial modifier, which is a mass multiplier in the acceleration formula.

Essentially, agility reduces the effective mass of the ship.

If the ship is lighter, it accelerates faster.

If the ship accelerates faster, it gets to warp speed sooner.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.02.26 15:35:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/02/2011 15:35:01
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Essentially, agility reduces the effective mass of the ship.
If the ship is lighter, it accelerates faster.
If the ship accelerates faster, it gets to warp speed sooner.

Exactly what I thought too ... it only seemed logical to me.

Anyway thanks all for this, my corp mate admitted he might have been wrong after reading your clear responses!

Cheers! Razz

Darryl Ward
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:47:00 - [8]
 

I'm pretty sure agility does not lower the effective mass of your ship.

In order to warp, you must be both aligned and at 70% of max speed. If aligning is the bottleneck (i.e. it takes longer to align than to achieve speed) then agility will help you get to warp faster.

Also, more agility means you can turn faster AND accelerate to a higher velocity while turning. Since acceleration is defined as a change in velocity, then changing directions is accelerating (even if your net velocity is 0), so agility will improve your angular acceleration, also contrbuting to faster warp off.

If you are already aligned, then agility does nothing for you.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.28 18:36:00 - [9]
 

Agility gives 2 attack power for rogues, hunters, and enhancement shamans, also increases critical strike chance.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.02.28 21:05:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 28/02/2011 21:10:01
Originally by: Darryl Ward
I'm pretty sure agility does not lower the effective mass of your ship.

It does. Feel free to check your ship's inertial modifier against the before skills base value.

Spaceship Command and Evasive Maneuvering reduce the inertial modifier on all ships.

Advanced Spaceship Command, and Capital Ships only reduce the inertial modifier on ships requring those skills.

Quote:
In order to warp, you must be both aligned and at 70% of max speed. If aligning is the bottleneck (i.e. it takes longer to align than to achieve speed) then agility will help you get to warp faster.

It is 75% max speed to warp.

Aligning is one part of warping. It also requires accelerating in a different direction.

It is all about acceleration.

Quote:
Also, more agility means you can turn faster AND accelerate to a higher velocity while turning. Since acceleration is defined as a change in velocity, then changing directions is accelerating (even if your net velocity is 0), so agility will improve your angular acceleration, also contrbuting to faster warp off.

Acceleration is acceleration, regardless of the direction of the vector.

Quote:
If you are already aligned, then agility does nothing for you.

Wrong. If you are not moving you are aligned, as your velocity vector is 0.

I think you may be confusing "aligned" with "aligned at speed", the latter meaning you will instantly warp.

Learn about acceleration.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.28 21:49:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Quote:
If you are already aligned, then agility does nothing for you.

Wrong. If you are not moving you are not aligned, as your velocity vector is 0.
Fixed.

If you are not moving, you have no alignment. Or, if you like, you are equally aligned in all directions — accelerating in any one direction is no different than accelerating in any other direction.
Quote:
I think you may be confusing "aligned" with "aligned at speed", the latter meaning you will instantly warp.
Weeell… aligned is aligned, which means you're already moving at some speed in the right direction. I suppose some use "aligned at speed" to differentiate that more general case with the case where you're moving in the right direction and is already at 75%+ of max speed. But yes, only in the latter case does agility become a none-issue for warping, because you already fulfil all the necessary conditions to get into warp.

Basically, any kind of change to the velocity vector — be it rotation or change of length — is a function of agility, mass, and max speed. All three become non-issues if, and only if, the rotation and length are already where they need to be (viz. pointing in the right direction and at 75%).

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2011.03.01 09:35:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 01/03/2011 09:35:06
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Quote:
If you are already aligned, then agility does nothing for you.

Wrong. If you are not moving you are not aligned, as your velocity vector is 0.
Fixed.

If you are not moving, you have no alignment. Or, if you like, you are equally aligned in all directions — accelerating in any one direction is no different than accelerating in any other direction.
...


it's more accurate to say that when not moving, ship does not have a facing. Alignment in EVE specifically means: facing desired direction AND having 75%+ of maximum speed. if either of these are not, ship is not aligned.

Daenosa
Ghost Festival
Posted - 2011.03.01 12:54:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tippia

If you are not moving, you have no alignment. Or, if you like, you are equally aligned in all directions — accelerating in any one direction is no different than accelerating in any other direction.


Say what? So if my orca is standing still but pointed in the direction of a gate it will take the same time to align and warp then it would to turn around and align/warp something behind me?
From experience the above is not true, unless i am missing what you are saying.

Sjugar
Posted - 2011.03.01 13:59:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Daenosa
Originally by: Tippia

If you are not moving, you have no alignment. Or, if you like, you are equally aligned in all directions — accelerating in any one direction is no different than accelerating in any other direction.


Say what? So if my orca is standing still but pointed in the direction of a gate it will take the same time to align and warp then it would to turn around and align/warp something behind me?
From experience the above is not true, unless i am missing what you are saying.
My experience is that is exactly what's happening.
Don't be fooled by the "turning" animation though. I have an MWD on my Orca and often enter warp before the turning animation is done, which the first few times is kinda awkward, a ship that's still turning in the right direction but has already entered warp.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2011.03.01 17:21:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Daenosa
Originally by: Tippia

If you are not moving, you have no alignment. Or, if you like, you are equally aligned in all directions — accelerating in any one direction is no different than accelerating in any other direction.


Say what? So if my orca is standing still but pointed in the direction of a gate it will take the same time to align and warp then it would to turn around and align/warp something behind me?
From experience the above is not true, unless i am missing what you are saying.


If you're entirely still (for instance after you've jumped through a gate), it does not matter what direction you warp in. Since velocity is a vector, you cannot be "pointing to" something while being still. The vector does not care about the orientation of your ship if it's 0.

Keith Deteisrich
Posted - 2011.03.02 04:11:00 - [16]
 

I believe this is why Interceptors require L5 Evasive Maneuvering.


Wolfgang Kies
Kies Industries
Posted - 2011.03.05 06:38:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Wolfgang Kies on 05/03/2011 06:39:18
Edited by: Wolfgang Kies on 05/03/2011 06:39:05
Originally by: Estel Arador

If you're entirely still (for instance after you've jumped through a gate), it does not matter what direction you warp in.


in case you jumped in this is true! your ship is not pointing in any direction when spawned. initiating warp in any direction will take the same time. but if you already flew around turning will take extra time! this might not be noticeable in normal situations. for example if you take a webbed freighter (reaching warp speed quite fast), it will warp off instantly after jumping and it will take forever turning around after stopping.

-Wolf

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2011.03.07 18:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Keith Deteisrich
I believe this is why Interceptors require L5 Evasive Maneuvering.




If you are serious about flying ANYTHING, then you already have Evasive maneuvering V.

Quoting Malcanis, "if I could train Evasive Maneuvering to VI, I would".

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.08 13:29:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Lost Greybeard on 08/03/2011 13:58:55
The formula for acceleration is V = V0 + (Vt-V0)*(1-exp ( -t * 1e6/I*M )

I being inertia modifier, M being ship mass, and Vt being max target vector.

So for V = 3/4 Vt, you get:

-ln{(Vt)/(4*(Vt - V0))} * I * M / 1e6 = time to hit 3/4 speed


So, to answer the original question, a 20% agility bonus to the inertia modifier will cause the time to warp to reduce in direct proportion, reducing your time-to-warp by 20%.

Also note that going in the wrong direction increases Vt - V0, and thus increases align time (logarithmic, proportional to maximum vector), but if you're sitting still, you have no movemement vector, making that term 2*ln(2) regardless of what direction you're facing. So, no, you can't be "aligned" and sitting still.

EDIT: if you want to be really anal about it, the math works out basically the same for a projection of your vector on the desired vector, so cos(theta) * current vector magnitude has to be 3/4 of your maximum speed, theta being your angle to the warp vector. In 3-d terms, that means the dot product of your vector*target vector/(max speed)^2 has to hit 3/4. Deriving the time to warp from angle off and speed is just basic unit conversion from that point setting the vectors coplanar:

I*M*10e-6 = time (perpendicular)

-ln{(Max speed)/(4*(Max speed - V0*cos(theta)))} * I * M / 1e6 = time (parallel)

or, assuming you're going full speed in the wrong direction:

align time (parallel) = ln(4*(1-cos(theta))*I*M/ 1e-6

Basic geometry tells us this is always the greater of the two alignment components, so your align time is going to always be:

t = {I*M*1e-6*(2*ln(2) + ln(1-cos(theta))

Simple enough, right? You can totally do that in your head while escaping 'rat guns.

(Note: perpendicular component math actually seems wrong, feel free to correct.)

Tamara Striker
Posted - 2011.03.26 05:19:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Tamara Striker on 26/03/2011 05:19:36
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Edited by: Lost Greybeard on 08/03/2011 13:58:55
The formula for acceleration is V = V0 + (Vt-V0)*(1-exp ( -t * 1e6/I*M )

I being inertia modifier, M being ship mass, and Vt being max target vector.

So for V = 3/4 Vt, you get:

-ln{(Vt)/(4*(Vt - V0))} * I * M / 1e6 = time to hit 3/4 speed

So, to answer the original question, a 20% agility bonus to the inertia modifier will cause the time to warp to reduce in direct proportion, reducing your time-to-warp by 20%.

Also note that going in the wrong direction increases Vt - V0, and thus increases align time (logarithmic, proportional to maximum vector), but if you're sitting still, you have no movemement vector, making that term 2*ln(2) regardless of what direction you're facing. So, no, you can't be "aligned" and sitting still.

EDIT: if you want to be really anal about it, the math works out basically the same for a projection of your vector on the desired vector, so cos(theta) * current vector magnitude has to be 3/4 of your maximum speed, theta being your angle to the warp vector. In 3-d terms, that means the dot product of your vector*target vector/(max speed)^2 has to hit 3/4. Deriving the time to warp from angle off and speed is just basic unit conversion from that point setting the vectors coplanar:

I*M*10e-6 = time (perpendicular)

-ln{(Max speed)/(4*(Max speed - V0*cos(theta)))} * I * M / 1e6 = time (parallel)

or, assuming you're going full speed in the wrong direction:

align time (parallel) = ln(4*(1-cos(theta))*I*M/ 1e-6

Basic geometry tells us this is always the greater of the two alignment components, so your align time is going to always be:

t = {I*M*1e-6*(2*ln(2) + ln(1-cos(theta))

Simple enough, right? You can totally do that in your head while escaping 'rat guns.

(Note: perpendicular component math actually seems wrong, feel free to correct.)


My head hurts Shocked

Vorekk
LowBall Heavy Industries
Cloning Gone Wrong
Posted - 2011.03.27 05:06:00 - [21]
 

"Yes, agility lets you turn around faster."

Which means nothing.

GyokZoli
Caldari
Sanctum of Citizens
Posted - 2011.03.27 22:40:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Archbeholder
Agility gives 2 attack power for rogues, hunters, and enhancement shamans, also increases critical strike chance.

WoW?

Kalain ap'Sulen
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.03.28 21:42:00 - [23]
 

DnD.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:04:00 - [24]
 

I believe your question is based on a false premise.
EVE physics has no 'direction' for your ship
It has a spherical body of uniform distribution - and that body has a momentum vector (this has direction)
When motionless, your ship is treated as a featureless sphere with no momentum.
When you are moving, it is still a sphere, with momentum in a given direction.
To 'turn' you apply a force in a different direction, and the force you apply plus (space!) friction cause your old vector of momentum to change.
So, agility only affects your acceleration in any direction, because there is no 'turning speed'


 

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