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Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:16:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Pisander

Finally I'd like to state that it is quite hypocritical to call anyone a hypocrite and liar when you are head of an alliance that allows lying and scamming. By your very existence as head of Goonswarm you too are a hypocrite and a liar because you allow it to be done by your members. "Recruitment scam by Goons" It's all over the forums. As leader it goes to your character as well. So don't call others hypocrites and liars. the buck stops at the top buddy.

If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to go to the forums before being scammed, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to go to eve-search or google before being scammed, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to do any kind of research about their prospective new alliance/corporation, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to read our alliance diplomat's in-game description, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to visit to our website, then perhaps they might have been better prepared.

EVE Search - Goonswarm Recruitment
EVE Search - Goonwaffe Recruitment
EVE Online - Goonswarm Federation
EVE Online - Vile Rat
Google - Goonswarm Recruitment
Google - Goonwaffe Recruitment
Goonfleet Wiki - Joining Goonswarm

All of the above links are publicly viewable by anyone who looks.

ImmaSplodeYou
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:22:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: ImmaSplodeYou on 27/02/2011 17:24:07
Oh god if you fall for the goon recruitment scam you really need to do diaf (in game)
What is it, 2006?

Also the vile rat link doesn't show anything two shots but here's what his bio says for those of you who still don't get it

Originally by: Vile rat's Bio
NO YOUR ****TY EMPIRE CORP THAT IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE REST (IF ONLY YOU HAD A CHANCE) CAN'T JOIN OUR ALLIANCE.


ALSO YES, YOU WERE SCAMMED. NO YOU DIDNT PAY MONEY TO GET INTO OUR ALLIANCE YOU GAVE MONEY TO SOME DUDE WHO SAID HE WAS A DIRECTOR. YES WE ARE LAUGHING.


(10:01:37 AM) own-own-teredrum: vile your fail and your alliance will fall again, and we will be there for it bff



Pisander
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:29:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Two Shots
Originally by: Pisander

Finally I'd like to state that it is quite hypocritical to call anyone a hypocrite and liar when you are head of an alliance that allows lying and scamming. By your very existence as head of Goonswarm you too are a hypocrite and a liar because you allow it to be done by your members. "Recruitment scam by Goons" It's all over the forums. As leader it goes to your character as well. So don't call others hypocrites and liars. the buck stops at the top buddy.

If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to go to the forums before being scammed, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to go to eve-search or google before being scammed, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to do any kind of research about their prospective new alliance/corporation, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to read our alliance diplomat's in-game description, then perhaps they might have been better prepared. If only those people who decide it's a good idea to go to the forums and whine about being recruitment scammed had thought to visit to our website, then perhaps they might have been better prepared.

EVE Search - Goonswarm Recruitment
EVE Search - Goonwaffe Recruitment
EVE Online - Goonswarm Federation
EVE Online - Vile Rat
Google - Goonswarm Recruitment
Google - Goonwaffe Recruitment
Goonfleet Wiki - Joining Goonswarm

All of the above links are publicly viewable by anyone who looks.


Correct. My point was not that the scams aren't easily findable. And quite frankly I don't have a problem with it. People who get scammed deserve it. My point is your leader is calling CSM candidates liars and hypocrites which is hypocritical on his part because he heads an alliance that lies. Despite whether or not it is allowed or ones view on it, favorable on my part. It's a game. If someone is going to lie and scam and it's within the game EULA, which it is, it is still lying. And to head an organization that allows it (lying to scam) is hypocritical. Therefore there is no ground to stand on calling others liars and hypocrites. Therefore, for me , it null and voids any legitimacy to this campaign. That's what I'm saying Two.

Karadion
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:33:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Karadion on 27/02/2011 17:33:10
Originally by: Pisander
Correct. My point was not that the scams aren't easily findable. And quite frankly I don't have a problem with it. People who get scammed deserve it. My point is your leader is calling CSM candidates liars and hypocrites which is hypocritical on his part because he heads an alliance that lies. Despite whether or not it is allowed or ones view on it, favorable on my part. It's a game. If someone is going to lie and scam and it's within the game EULA, which it is, it is still lying. And to head an organization that allows it (lying to scam) is hypocritical. Therefore there is no ground to stand on calling others liars and hypocrites. Therefore, for me , it null and voids any legitimacy to this campaign. That's what I'm saying Two.
He's caught onto us!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY

ImmaSplodeYou
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:37:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: ImmaSplodeYou on 27/02/2011 17:38:04
The alliance itself is actually very open about not tolerating scamming by its directors, recruiters or ceos. You can't say the entire alliance are scammers because a few members decide to take some idiots for a ride to get carrier killmails and a few mil ISK. That's like saying I'm a murderer because someone was murdered by someone from my town

Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 17:40:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: ImmaSplodeYou
Edited by: ImmaSplodeYou on 27/02/2011 17:38:04
The alliance itself is actually very open about not tolerating scamming by its directors, recruiters or ceos. You can't say the entire alliance are scammers because a few members decide to take some idiots for a ride to get carrier killmails and a few mil ISK. That's like saying I'm a murderer because someone was murdered by someone from my town

Your town killed my family and raped my dog. Crying or Very sad

Alqualonde
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 18:24:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Alqualonde on 27/02/2011 20:35:50
Edited by: Alqualonde on 27/02/2011 18:39:16
Edited by: Alqualonde on 27/02/2011 18:37:30
Originally by: ImmaSplodeYou
Edited by: ImmaSplodeYou on 27/02/2011 17:38:04
The alliance itself is actually very open about not tolerating scamming by its directors, recruiters or ceos. You can't say the entire alliance are scammers because a few members decide to take some idiots for a ride to get carrier killmails and a few mil ISK. That's like saying I'm a murderer because someone was murdered by someone from my town


Or we could back up even further to the point where people can't differentiate between in-game and "real life".

Perhaps I should clarify that recruitment scamming & such constitute "in-game" asshattery and the CSM is unrelated. All the posts about the NC "taking over the CSM to bend the game to their interests" or equivalent drivel are some of the dumbest things I have ever read. (In fact the game is already skewed greatly in our favor and yet we are still advocating a fix, see previous discussion of tech moons.)

Every 0.0 bloc perceives the stagnation and barriers to entry in 0.0 just as clearly as everyone in this thread coming up with laughable conspiracy theories, and we don't enjoy the end results too much either. The difference is we actually understand why it is happening. (Something that Mittani does much more than me, which is why I will be voting for him despite his horrible posting style.)

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 19:55:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: iP0D

Honest question though. It's been clear how CCP react badly to the hurf blurf fist on the table approach in previous CSM's, your entire presentation seems to come down to that. I could be wrong obviously, it could just be the :lolelections: part o it, I hope so. Unless you'd be banking on social engineering lines it just never gives any results for EVE as a whole, only for own interests and you don't strike me as just going out there to preserve your state of the union.

So, how exactly are you going to approach CCP when it is time to sit down at the table, where there is a very good part of CCP who is willing to listen if the work is done .. but also a very bad part of CCP which just wants to do new shiny stuff and gets butthurt when a CSM does not agree with something being :awesome:. to the point of literally turning their backs on the CSM, isolating them, slapping NDA on things while at the same time taking everything to the media. I am sure you understand the challenge, but do you have the methods for it. I'm not asking for some overview of background Smile But for how you are really going to approach matters.



i'm going to collect intelligence, make some calls and probably wing it from there. how hostile ccp will be may depend on the composition of the CSM; the best approach may be a subtle one, outside the formal process rather than one that involves meeting minutes. it might be best done within a formal process but i doubt it. most legislation is theatre irl, with the real drama done in the back rooms before a vote.

one of the easiest fixes and one that seems extremely obvious to me is just to get the whole csm on skype/conference call during their biweekly meetings, they apparently do not do this at all and i suspect that's part of the reason why they had rings run around them. i've been talking to mynxee to get a brain-dump from her about her views on the problems

the biggest issue that i can see - and this is a theory, we're at the spitball stage here - is that the issues we see in terms of unbalanced, half-finished game combined with schizophrenic shiny feature-chasing is not the disease itself, but the symptom of an archaic corporate culture, and organization problem within ccp itself where best practices don't exist/aren't communicated. if this is the case past csms have been playing whack-a-mole at the symptoms, which new idiocies are spawned every day by the structural problems. dunno if this is real though, just a hunch (my hunches are p. good)

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 20:00:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Pisander
I'm going to call this campaign smoke being blown up the ass despite you saying it's not. And here's why.
CCP created the CSM. The CSM serves CCP not the other way around. If you think you are going to go in there and start swinging proverbial fists and bring CCP to the table to listen to "us" and what "we" want then you're crazy. CCP brought the CSM in to this world it can take it out. And your attitude because you're some big powerful guy in a big alliance doesn't mean **** and could possibly cause CCP to just simply get rid of the CSM. I kind of get the feeling you're about to walk in to the mentally handicap room at a school and start swinging. That ain't gonna last too long, ya know? (No offense CCP just making a point).

Sure there's things that suck but at the end of the day it's a game we play and CCP owns. It's their game.
I also believe that you realize that the CSM V has done some hard work and got a foot in the door to where CCP is more inclined to listen to the CSM bringing forth player concerns and issues and take more of what they say to heart. And because of the work by the CSM V you see an opportunity to go in their and ravage the little bit of soft underbelly that they (CSM V) got CCP to show, finally.

Finally I'd like to state that it is quite hypocritical to call anyone a hypocrite and liar when you are head of an alliance that allows lying and scamming. By your very existence as head of Goonswarm you too are a hypocrite and a liar because you allow it to be done by your members. "Recruitment scam by Goons" It's all over the forums. As leader it goes to your character as well. So don't call others hypocrites and liars. the buck stops at the top buddy.


this is an awesome post because this dude completely lost his ****

1. i'm conniving. i'm not going to bang my fist on the table. like i said in the previous post, i'll do what it takes to forge an effective advocacy group. that probably involves a lot of work on the down low.

you blurt out a bunch of dumb **** about how the ~straw mitten~ who lives in your brain will behave, but it's obvious that you know nothing about me or how i work; anyone who's played this game for more than a year knows that i never choose the direct or obvious route.

2. you're mad about scamming in eve online, you should probably play a different game

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 20:02:00 - [130]
 

in other 'mittani is a liar' news, i used a zizek quote in our alliance description even though i can't stand zizek or lacan

booyah

4C 4F 5645
Rogue Drone Systems
Posted - 2011.02.27 20:34:00 - [131]
 

Do you guys even realise that the main issues CSM6 will be called to give feedback on are going to be a possible Incursion iteration followed by Captain's Quarters and Incarna iterations thereafter. Anything major sov-related is probably at least a year away if then.
As far as i can tell your only expertise in those areas is pretending they don't exist.

Your posturing about what you're going to do about sovereignty to your own voting block is no different then the people who say they're going to fix faction warfare or blasters or whatever.

I know it's pointless to try to reason with you people on this particular subject but sov warfare is not the core gameplay of EvE. It's all expansion content and mostly expansion content that is old and in the past and not really a priority right now as far as CCP is concerned.

Also "chasing shiny things" is what took CCP out of the disaster that was EvE's launch and gave them the constant slow growth no other MMO on the market has ever managed. They're not going to go into maintenance mode and lose that edge so that their population can slowly start to die off just because of a few bitter vets.

Alqualonde
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 20:44:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Alqualonde on 27/02/2011 21:09:43
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645

Your posturing about what you're going to do about sovereignty to your own voting block is no different then the people who say they're going to fix faction warfare or blasters or whatever.


I don't really see anyone posturing about doing something about it so much as knowing a single goddamn thing about it.

Hey if sovereignty doesn't come up for a while, oh well, but at least there will be some people on the CSM who can provide intelligent feedback about how CCP's terrible ideas will affect it. (See: Technetium, Jump Bridges)

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 20:59:00 - [133]
 

that guy thinks that ccp follows a structured development process and doesn't just randomly brainstorm ideas (many of which are bad) outside of their scheduled releases

heh

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.27 21:22:00 - [134]
 

I, for one, think that CCP should remove jump bridges and remove local (or even delay it).

This will make 0.0 a completely tedious place to live and everyone and their brother will have a bot out there, because **** actually living there.

SirMille
Posted - 2011.02.28 01:27:00 - [135]
 

I support this product and/or service.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.02.28 04:23:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Marconus Orion on 28/02/2011 04:36:17
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
I, for one, think that CCP should remove jump bridges and remove local (or even delay it).

This will make 0.0 require effort to live there and everyone and their brother will have fun killing bots who don't know who is in system out there.


FYP

It is amusing to see you pull the "This will cause more bots!" card if local and jump bridges are removed.

EDIT: You also just proved the point of how lazy people would move out of 0.0 if logistic, power projection and the instant Intel from local were nerfed. It would be too hard for you and you are unwilling to adapt.

But this all does come down to opinion on what 0.0 should be. Everyone thinks their version is the right one. The more we debate, the more everyone becomes entrenched into their opinion and the sounds of the opposing become more and more quiet in your mind.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 05:01:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Edited by: Marconus Orion on 28/02/2011 04:36:17
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
I, for one, think that CCP should remove jump bridges and remove local (or even delay it).

This will make 0.0 require effort to live there and everyone and their brother will have fun killing bots who don't know who is in system out there.


FYP

It is amusing to see you pull the "This will cause more bots!" card if local and jump bridges are removed.

EDIT: You also just proved the point of how lazy people would move out of 0.0 if logistic, power projection and the instant Intel from local were nerfed. It would be too hard for you and you are unwilling to adapt.

But this all does come down to opinion on what 0.0 should be. Everyone thinks their version is the right one. The more we debate, the more everyone becomes entrenched into their opinion and the sounds of the opposing become more and more quiet in your mind.


I wasn't being sarcastic.

Please. Nerf. Jump. Bridges.

Local, too. Why? It'll give me a reason to finally quit this game as I laugh at those who want to live in the wasteland of 0.0

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.02.28 05:11:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
I wasn't being sarcastic.

Please. Nerf. Jump. Bridges.

Local, too. Why? It'll give me a reason to finally quit this game as I laugh at those who want to live in the wasteland of 0.0


Can I have your stuff?

Lorna Sicling
Caldari
Helix Pulse
Posted - 2011.02.28 11:24:00 - [139]
 

I missed the last CSM election forum "debates" - was this what it was like last year?

On a serious note, this all seems to be reflecting real life politics very well. Sort of like the independent candidates trying to be positive, the larger party candidates sometimes engaging in more aggressive heckling of other candidates etc.

Basically, from what I can see, I think the poster above is right in that CCP will be heavily focussed on ensuring Incursions and Incarna work as well as possible.

The really tought job for the CSM, whoever is elected, will be to help CCP shape that future from the position that they are (which I agree with Mittani is not from a group of work experience devs they meet every so often). Also, it will be to help CCP refine how they communicate with their players.

Although I have some reservations about the style of campaign that you're running (whether it is you directly or friends/associates on your behalf or at your request or neither), you are quite true that improved communication between the CSM itself, and also CSM to CCP is vital.

Have you any plans for involving the rank and file player base more in things - crowd sourcing more frequently etc?

The British government has a website where anybody can raise a petition and others can vote on it - I know that there's already mechanisms to do similar, but do/would you support this - would you expand this idea, or have you other ideas?

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.02.28 11:39:00 - [140]
 

Voting for The Mittani is the only assured way to get a sound effect which befits it totally.



Van Zarr
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.28 12:10:00 - [141]
 

You're efficient. You have my vote.

Alqualonde
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:00:00 - [142]
 

I find the polarization here pretty funny. In the time I've been in GoonSwarm, Mittani has un-ironically been an extremely effective and charismatic leader.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:03:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Lorna Sicling

Although I have some reservations about the style of campaign that you're running (whether it is you directly or friends/associates on your behalf or at your request or neither), you are quite true that improved communication between the CSM itself, and also CSM to CCP is vital.

Have you any plans for involving the rank and file player base more in things - crowd sourcing more frequently etc?

The British government has a website where anybody can raise a petition and others can vote on it - I know that there's already mechanisms to do similar, but do/would you support this - would you expand this idea, or have you other ideas?


my campaign style essentially has to be brutal and honest, because i'm not exactly known for hugs, flowers and kisses. i've been pleased to see that the csm6 'platforms' are adjusting to react to my arguments, and that there is less of a culture of 'i'll fix blasters no really' than before; at this point you could probably replace "They're Lying To You" with "Most of them are lying, or just shamefully ignorant."

the csm process already has a fairly serious mechanic for involving the playerbase with the assembly hall proposal system; each meeting, every csm can bring to the table a number of proposals from the playerbase for a vote. however this presents a mechanical problem; the csm has now upvoted almost every popular proposal from the playerbase, which have all promptly disappeared into the backlog

the issue the csm faces isn't so much passing and upvoting proposals, but finding leverage and power to attempt to cajole ccp into actually implementing all the good, csm-approved ideas that have come up over the years that are languishing in development hell. this is a subtle point (well, it's not really, but it's election time and people are dumb) that is missed by a lot of the single-issue voters; pretty much every reasonable proposal out there has already been taken up by the csms and moved on to ccp.

this presents a difficult situation where csm6 may wish to pick four or five already-approved player initiatives and use them as a fulcrum (or at least try to) so that ccp isn't inundated with 100 new proposals, all of which can be dismissed. if the csm rallies behind 3-5 issues and makes their intentions known to the playerbase, it might make for more effective negotiations with ccp.

we'll see though, the exact methods will probably depend on the personalities of the ccp interlocutors. how you approach someone as rationalistic as torfi is very different from how you'd discuss something with ccp sreegs.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:51:00 - [144]
 


Calling a game designer from CCP "an idiot" is pretty stupid.

CCP can listen to you or not, as they want. If you think that you will be able to force them to do what you think, you're just stupid, CCP will just silence you because they can.
There is no battle to fight against CCP, and if there were one you can't win it.

Putting it in another way: CSM5 achieved so much because they worked a lot to get trusted by CCP, and cooperate with them. You are just promising to screw it up, what a genius.



Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:54:00 - [145]
 

I like your style very much, but I'm yet to be convinced about your substance. Can you offer any promises that you are going to be a genuine voice for "the players" in general, as opposed to just Goonswarm/NC/0.0 (delete as appropriate) specifically?

Karadion
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:56:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Camios

Calling a game designer from CCP "an idiot" is pretty stupid.

CCP can listen to you or not, as they want. If you think that you will be able to force them to do what you think, you're just stupid, CCP will just silence you because they can.
There is no battle to fight against CCP, and if there were one you can't win it.

Putting it in another way: CSM5 achieved so much because they worked a lot to get trusted by CCP, and cooperate with them. You are just promising to screw it up, what a genius.



I searched for the quote "an idiot" and failed to find any. Did you just make that up by yourself?

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.28 18:12:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Karadion
Originally by: Camios

Calling a game designer from CCP "an idiot" is pretty stupid.

CCP can listen to you or not, as they want. If you think that you will be able to force them to do what you think, you're just stupid, CCP will just silence you because they can.
There is no battle to fight against CCP, and if there were one you can't win it.

Putting it in another way: CSM5 achieved so much because they worked a lot to get trusted by CCP, and cooperate with them. You are just promising to screw it up, what a genius.



I searched for the quote "an idiot" and failed to find any. Did you just make that up by yourself?


Here, and the linked article is full of venom and madness. You can't really think CCP is going to work with one that does so much against them.

CSM will never have control over CCP, period. Mittani wants to go to Iceland to fight CCP, that's just a silly thing to do. You hate too much, dude.

Karadion
Posted - 2011.02.28 18:24:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Camios
Originally by: Karadion
Originally by: Camios

Calling a game designer from CCP "an idiot" is pretty stupid.

CCP can listen to you or not, as they want. If you think that you will be able to force them to do what you think, you're just stupid, CCP will just silence you because they can.
There is no battle to fight against CCP, and if there were one you can't win it.

Putting it in another way: CSM5 achieved so much because they worked a lot to get trusted by CCP, and cooperate with them. You are just promising to screw it up, what a genius.



I searched for the quote "an idiot" and failed to find any. Did you just make that up by yourself?


Here, and the linked article is full of venom and madness. You can't really think CCP is going to work with one that does so much against them.

CSM will never have control over CCP, period. Mittani wants to go to Iceland to fight CCP, that's just a silly thing to do. You hate too much, dude.
Venom and madness? Want to fight CCP? Please, you're projecting.

Two Shots
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.28 18:25:00 - [149]
 

How can you accuse Mittens of being hateful?
Have you not seen his puppy?

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.28 19:26:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 28/02/2011 19:39:35
Originally by: The Mittani
the csm process already has a fairly serious mechanic for involving the playerbase with the assembly hall proposal system; each meeting, every csm can bring to the table a number of proposals from the playerbase for a vote. however this presents a mechanical problem; the csm has now upvoted almost every popular proposal from the playerbase, which have all promptly disappeared into the backlog

the issue the csm faces isn't so much passing and upvoting proposals, but finding leverage and power to attempt to cajole ccp into actually implementing all the good, csm-approved ideas that have come up over the years that are languishing in development hell. this is a subtle point (well, it's not really, but it's election time and people are dumb) that is missed by a lot of the single-issue voters; pretty much every reasonable proposal out there has already been taken up by the csms and moved on to ccp.

this presents a difficult situation where csm6 may wish to pick four or five already-approved player initiatives and use them as a fulcrum (or at least try to) so that ccp isn't inundated with 100 new proposals, all of which can be dismissed. if the csm rallies behind 3-5 issues and makes their intentions known to the playerbase, it might make for more effective negotiations with ccp.


As I mentioned when you inquired privately about the CSM proposal process the other day, all proposals which pass the CSM vote are submitted to CCP for review and then they respond to CSM with Yes or No. Yes means an item goes into the backlog for future consideration, No means it doesn't. Occasionally, there is some clarification discussion with CSM before they decide--either at a Summit in a session devoted to discussion of backlogged items or else in the internal CSM forums.

Once in the backlog, CSM items can then be included on the CSM's prioritized development list which is submitted to CCP in time for its release planning meetings that are scheduled twice a year. During CSM5, Summit dates were adjusted so that timing of the Summit coincided with the release planning schedule. Backlogged CSM items were the focus of Trebor's crowdsourcing activities in Assembly Hall that aided in prioritizing CSM items for release planning meetings.

Funny little story about the CSM backlog. We learned at the June Summit that no CSM items in the backlog were tagged as such. There was no way to tell what was a CSM item and what wasn't, according to our advocates. So we requested CCP commit to identifying a methodology for tagging CSM items, then tag them, and get us a list of all backlogged CSM items. They committed to do this by a date just shy of the December Summit.

No one including technically savvy players from the #eve-dev channel on IRC-- could understand why it was going to take six months to complete that task. There were only +/- 200 backlogged CSM items, after all. Neither private communications with CCP folks nor interaction on the CSM internal forums impacted progress; the message was repeated that the task was being worked and wed have the list by the promised date. Finally, a player from the #eve-dev channel took it upon himself to download a trial version of Hansoft (the tool CCP uses for backlog mgmt), set up a databse, and enter all the items dug up from Evelopedia and Teadaze's database. It took him approximately 8-12 hours. TOTAL. We presented the results of this experiment to CCP and asked, "How come it's going to take you guys months to do this?" We got our list quite soon after that.

Point of that story is, certain kinds of pressure management work better than others. Transparency is always required. Communication is a two way street.



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