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Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.25 21:52:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 25/02/2011 21:52:28
What Raimo said and quoted. And bring back/fix freezing the overview (instantly, no waiting to see there's nothing being clicked in combo with the CTRL or whatever modifier).

Mikel Laurentson
Posted - 2011.02.25 21:59:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga

Quote:
And this WILL NOT WORK:

X. Click the item in space, or its locked target icon, and THEN press W.


Uhm, why don't you make it work?
Apparently people want to be able to do this (see point 2 above)


Echo'd.

Seriously, some of the changes seem fairly random, like disabling 'double click on targeted ship icon to approach'. It works on the tiny red cross in space, it works on the overview, why not on the large and easy-to-click on icon? Why must everything rely on clicking tiny things that move around a lot?

And why can't I freeze the overview anymore? Did that just move to a new button or something?

I dual-monitor a lot. Two clients open, lots of shiny stuff. When I want to go from my murdertron to the Noctis, I just move the mouse over, and click a thing. But apparently, if I'm holding control when I do that it doesn't count. That's a real pain in the neck when I just want to lock a ton of wrecks.


I also want to know what shortcut de-orbits. There must be one: every so often, I find I'm not orbiting the anchor anymore, instead I'm hurtling into space on a random vector (with nothing in-line). ugh

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.25 22:18:00 - [33]
 

I think that these shortcuts are probably the most awesome thing that happened to EVE.

My point is that scanning around is quite painful. I think that shortcuts could actually make it much lesstiring to use.

Here is a suggestion to make the use of scanner more efficient:

  • Add a shortcut to change the overview tab without having to set the focus on the overview.

  • Add shortcuts to manage the scanner setup quickly (to set ranges, angles and do a scan), or at least make it possible to set the scanner angle with the keyboard (make it an edit field?).

  • (MOST IMPORTANT) Make it possible to lock the focus on the scanner window, or something so that if I click in space to change view I don't have to re-click on the scanner window to scan.



Thanks for reading!





Angelica Tharax
Caldari
Farstriders
Avaricious Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.25 22:32:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/02/2011 19:08:12
I understand where you're coming from with the shortcut system, but it just doesn't work for me. To me a shortcut affects the current selection, that's how it is in every other game and application I have used at least. When I want to copy a piece of text I don't hold ctrl+c while making a new selection with the mouse and then release ctrl+c to make the actual copy, no I select the text and then click ctrl+c once. If I want to cut it out later I can just press ctrl+x directly instead of having to hold ctrl+x, selecting the same text again, and release ctrl+x.

With a "normal" shortcut system to execute two shortcuts on an object require three operations; (select, execute 1, execute 2), with your system six operations are required; (pre-execute 1, select, post-execute 1, pre-execute 2, select (same selection as before), post-execute 2). Even with your own weapon shortcuts you use the normal mechanic; it's not like you hold F1, select target, release F1, hold F2, select target, release F2, no you press F1, F2, F3 and it affects the current selection!

If you have to have it your way, can't you at least provide an option in the esc-menu with a check box where you choose between mechanic X ("normal") or mechanic A-B (yours)?

If someone choose to use the X mechanic they are aware that they might activate commands by mistake and have no one but themselves to blame. Have A-B as default and it's in no way your fault if people make misstakes.


This, please.

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.02.25 23:19:00 - [35]
 

I figured this out already, but thanks for the blog.Very Happy

I love being able to do most things in space without touching the mouse. This has changed the game for me more than any other change in Incursion.

Please give us some way to move the camera without the mouse, though. I have a G13 pad and it'd be awesome if I could move the camera with its analog stick.Very Happy

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.02.25 23:38:00 - [36]
 

My experience with the new shortcuts is that my drone shortcuts suddenly stopped working as they were remapped (suprise!) and I lost them all frantically pressing keys before I figured out what you guys had been up to.

New shortcuts yay Razz
Suprise remap not funny Sad

Monger Man
Posted - 2011.02.25 23:43:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/02/2011 19:08:12
I understand where you're coming from with the shortcut system, but it just doesn't work for me. To me a shortcut affects the current selection, that's how it is in every other game and application I have used at least. When I want to copy a piece of text I don't hold ctrl+c while making a new selection with the mouse and then release ctrl+c to make the actual copy, no I select the text and then click ctrl+c once. If I want to cut it out later I can just press ctrl+x directly instead of having to hold ctrl+x, selecting the same text again, and release ctrl+x.

With a "normal" shortcut system to execute two shortcuts on an object require three operations; (select, execute 1, execute 2), with your system six operations are required; (pre-execute 1, select, post-execute 1, pre-execute 2, select (same selection as before), post-execute 2). Even with your own weapon shortcuts you use the normal mechanic; it's not like you hold F1, select target, release F1, hold F2, select target, release F2, no you press F1, F2, F3 and it affects the current selection!

If you have to have it your way, can't you at least provide an option in the esc-menu with a check box where you choose between mechanic X ("normal") or mechanic A-B (yours)?

If someone choose to use the X mechanic they are aware that they might activate commands by mistake and have no one but themselves to blame. Have A-B as default and it's in no way your fault if people make misstakes.


I have to agree with this 100%. I understand from the developer point of view. But the system just doesn't work. You're not making shortcuts, at least from the industry standard way. You're making alternate ways to do commands. And more often then not, I do exactly the opposite thing I want to. Yes ctrl click to lock makes sense. At least with the interface as it now. I can see the power in you're system. But trying to unlearn years of
how a shortcut should work just isn't going well for me. And the fact that shortcuts work differently depending on if its a module or another command.

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.02.26 01:41:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Aquana Abyss on 26/02/2011 01:41:05

" If any of you out there are half as lazy as I am, you'll curse every time software forces you to move your right hand from the warmth of your keyboard, over to the plastic rodent living next to it (yes, I'm a programmer)"

- But you're a CCP programmer; shouldn't your right hand be scratching your arse? Razz

Sebadai
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.02.26 03:14:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Sebadai on 26/02/2011 03:18:28
Originally by: Monger Man
Originally by: Daedalus II
Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/02/2011 19:08:12
I understand where you're coming from with the shortcut system, but it just doesn't work for me. To me a shortcut affects the current selection, that's how it is in every other game and application I have used at least. When I want to copy a piece of text I don't hold ctrl+c while making a new selection with the mouse and then release ctrl+c to make the actual copy, no I select the text and then click ctrl+c once. If I want to cut it out later I can just press ctrl+x directly instead of having to hold ctrl+x, selecting the same text again, and release ctrl+x.

With a "normal" shortcut system to execute two shortcuts on an object require three operations; (select, execute 1, execute 2), with your system six operations are required; (pre-execute 1, select, post-execute 1, pre-execute 2, select (same selection as before), post-execute 2). Even with your own weapon shortcuts you use the normal mechanic; it's not like you hold F1, select target, release F1, hold F2, select target, release F2, no you press F1, F2, F3 and it affects the current selection!

If you have to have it your way, can't you at least provide an option in the esc-menu with a check box where you choose between mechanic X ("normal") or mechanic A-B (yours)?

If someone choose to use the X mechanic they are aware that they might activate commands by mistake and have no one but themselves to blame. Have A-B as default and it's in no way your fault if people make misstakes.


I have to agree with this 100%. I understand from the developer point of view. But the system just doesn't work. You're not making shortcuts, at least from the industry standard way. You're making alternate ways to do commands. And more often then not, I do exactly the opposite thing I want to. Yes ctrl click to lock makes sense. At least with the interface as it now. I can see the power in you're system. But trying to unlearn years of
how a shortcut should work just isn't going well for me. And the fact that shortcuts work differently depending on if its a module or another command.


A thousand times this!

First I was like "cool, tons of shortcuts to customize!"
Then I was like "the damned things don't work!"

Basically the system feels clunky as hell and is completely unintuitive.
It is far easier (and faster!) to click things in the selected items window than holding down "w" and click something in the overview!

I'm really sorry to bash things like that but I've never come across a worse shortcut system!

Seriously, to make these useful give us at least the option to have all shortcuts apply to the selected item.

You dislike using a mouse, all right, but I am the reverse: I dislike putting my right hand on the keyboard while playing and as it is right now your system only makes sense for mouse-haters while for mouse users it's at most as fast and in some cases much slower to use than just to click buttons.

BTW your system makes executing wrong commands easier than the selected item method would IMHO: it is quite possible to warp to the wrong gate by slightly misclicking!
With the normal method of every other game ever you'd be able to read/see what you got selected and then press a shortcut to execute a command.

Edit:
Holy ****, not a month here and I post what may be a rant!
CCP you made me care about the game. <3

Nypheas Azurai
Posted - 2011.02.26 03:37:00 - [40]
 

Quote:
Speaking of welcome, we would love to hear if the new shortcuts have at all affected, improved or decreased the quality of life in New Eden during the first couple of weeks they've been out in the wild.


You know I thought it might have, and I began using them at first, but after a while I noticed I just went back to the old way of clicking in the Selection Window. Reason being is the shortcut isn't predictable or robust enough.

Is the object selected now? If I hit W will I warp, or woops do I have the wrong thing selected? Hey- what the- my Overview lost focus so now the shortcuts are unresponsive... etc.

Versus the old way, you know when you click an icon in the selection window it's going to do what it's supposed to, when it's supposed to.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2011.02.26 03:37:00 - [41]
 

shortcut to launch drones plz

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2011.02.26 04:11:00 - [42]
 

CCP in unintuitive, not well thought out, badly documented UI non-shocker...

FullNelson Mandella
Posted - 2011.02.26 04:30:00 - [43]
 

Confirming that ctrl+click is borked. It's really borked, and should have been given cause to rollback. Ctrl+click rapidly and nothing happens. You can't even click in space to move your ship. The workaround is to stop all input for 2-3 seconds and try again,

The ctrl - target shortcut has done nothing for me but cost me sec. Warp to gate, control+click a target. Shoot the gate. Lose sec (in 0.0).

Look, you made a really bad decision with this change. You screwed a lot of people. Your GMs do not help the situation much when people request sec reimbursement. As a matter of fact, they make things much much worse for CCP.

I can't believe you released this crap.

Kieron VonDeux
Posted - 2011.02.26 04:55:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Kieron VonDeux on 26/02/2011 04:56:29

"Ctrl" + "Click" + "Quick Click" = Approach can really suck in fleet fight lag at times tbh.
We should have an option to disable this.

We should have options to set general UI behavior ourselves, if we choose.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.02.26 06:17:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 26/02/2011 06:20:00
Originally by: Ban Doga
Edited by: Ban Doga on 25/02/2011 19:39:46
Quote:
Once explained, this is all really rather simple and the combat commands become a powerful tool to execute actions faster than previously possible, but the problem remains that this new pattern is far from self-explanatory. Making it self-explanatory is definitely on our TODO list, and any ideas on how this would be best pursued are very welcome.


Two simple solutions just top off my head to improve the situation:

1) forgo the need to be self-explanatory and provide an explanation how it works and why ("why" works wonders, even if it is a bad "why")

2) don't introduce a shortcut system that's unlike pretty much every other system on this planet and be surprised when people have problems understanding how it's supposed to work.


Quote:
And this WILL NOT WORK:

X. Click the item in space, or its locked target icon, and THEN press W.


Uhm, why don't you make it work?
Apparently people want to be able to do this (see point 2 above)


This. Your intuitive solutions with the UI in general aren't intuitive. They go against established norms, sometimes even your own ones, and working out how things work require alot of effort or research. The way you do things is almost never intuitive for a new guy. We just get used to how it is after a while.

Current shortcut system is a mixed bag. It has it's uses, but the way it is implemented makes it pretty useless most of the time and I've had to remap many of them, since they cause issues like with the alt-tabbing. The reason why they're a mixed bag is really the need to go to overview to execute the order. If I have to go to the overview, I might as well just use the mouse to click the icon, since it is just a few centimeters away anyway. The point of a shortcut is to make it so, that commanding is faster and my mouse can concentrate on other activities. Now it really isn't either in many cases, mainly because I still have to go to the overview to do things anyway.

Why can't I use icons or the target in space to do the same things? I naturally assumed you could, since it is the intuitive thing to do. Afterall interacting with the targets in all those different ways is the same from a players perspective. Your choice in limiting things to just the overview is weird and greatly reduces the usefullness of this feature. I still think it's an improvement, since it offers more choices, but it wasn't as good improvement as I hoped mainly because of the weird way it was implemented.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.02.26 07:06:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Internet Knight
Can you, or perhaps one of your peers, now explain to us why Planetary Interaction is likewise designed to be so tedious?

That's all they had resources left for after crowd control, pvp and "the same good feeling as sim city" got cut out of PI.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.02.26 07:57:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Raimo
The new combat shorcuts are completely useless for small scale combat because of this:

Originally by: CCP Optimal

Combat shortcuts without clicking were designed to be used with the overview and therefore require focus to be set to the window. This is very much by design, as the alternative of applying the combat command to the currently selected target, regardless of overview focus, would undoubtedly have led to a lot of accidental commands being executed.


I won't adopt to using a shortcut for "orbit" or "approach" etc unless they always apply to the selected item in the selected item box - just like my gun/ ewar shortcuts. In small scale combat, clicking in space ("manual flying") and switching overview tabs happen constantly, thus the current implementation of combat shortcuts is completely useless.

To be usable, they would need to always work on the "selected item" unless push+mouseclicked to override "selected item", or if in chat focus mode, it's as simple as that.


+

Originally by: Ji'txi Mu'rah
The shortcuts that everyone used such as fitting, quitting eve should not have been changed, but that's just my personal view. I changed them right back to what they were before, I dunno about anyone else.


=

my opinion

also: ffs I miss my ctrl+q and ctrl+shift+f, and having to reset them in every client is just such a pita (and for some reason ctrl became the quit button in a few clients), plus alt is such a random arse key in a bad place.

T'Kahr
Posted - 2011.02.26 09:08:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: T''Kahr on 26/02/2011 14:29:43
nvm

Keiko Kobayashi
Amarr
Celestial Janissaries
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.26 12:08:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: ROXGenghis
The problem I have with the new system is the ambiguity introduced when you don't know where your focus is. And because you have to use so many windows during a fight, it's a PITA to keep track of your focus.

Example: I'm sitting on a gate, my focus is on the overview, and the gate is selected in the overview. I want to dock at a station and don't realize my focus is already on the overview, so I hold down the "jump/dock" hotkey and then click the station. Oops, I just jumped through the gate.

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that using the hotkeys is too dangerous so I have to keep using the old GUI instead.


This.

Please remove the overview keyboard navigation-based shortcuts. Nobody uses that anyway.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.02.26 12:15:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 26/02/2011 12:30:55
Originally by: CCP Optimal
Making it self-explanatory is definitely on our TODO list, and any ideas on how this would be best pursued are very welcome. Speaking of welcome, we would love to hear if the new shortcuts have at all affected, improved or decreased the quality of life in New Eden during the first couple of weeks they've been out in the wild.


The best learning aid tools are visually based. It's not as if you're re-investing the wheel.

Consider well made games when they were back in the 80s or even 90s, I remember some had visual keyboard layouts cheat sheet to help the players learn the pattern. Consider also Japan, where they are very proficient with visual and audio cues and these are prevalent in the various industries and everyday life there.

In short, get someone do to a CLEAR, SIMPLE and CONCISE visual layout demonstrating the new (default) keyboard patterns in various areas, then post them in Evelopedia. Afterwards, set the default IGB browser page to a custom page that lists ALL the links that a newbie or veteran would want or need for reference - including the page you made.

Edit: That would be the traditional simple approach. The vague creative approach that I had in mind involves too much work for the return - you can simply flash out the nice icon or letter onscreen each time a valid shortcut is pressed. In a short time period, players will get used to it and learn these shortcuts by doing it almost intuitively.

Ranting off a bit (bear with me Very Happy), I can't re-iterate enough times the need to be CLEAR, SIMPLE and CONCISE.
Some CCP employees seem to forget that EVE is a multi-lingual game. Yes, English is the main carrier language where most things get done, however, this does not give an employee license to confuddle official/semi-official communications through extreme use of the language. The act tbh, is both arrogant and disrespectful towards the community as a whole.

As for my feedback on the new shortcut, I'm not much of a PVP guy.
There's really not much change in daily terms, well, maybe the auto-pilot enable/disable was useful.

Chruker
Posted - 2011.02.26 14:36:00 - [51]
 

Just make 'em work when you have multiple windows:
- Arrange 2 windows so that you can see targets in both.
- Hold ctrl down and click a target in the window that have focus
- Now while still holding ctrl down, try and click the same target in the unfocused window... you cant, not without re-pressing ctrl

So basicly just have the application check the status of the ctrl key, instead of trying to keep track of whether it is down or not

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.26 16:19:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 26/02/2011 16:20:03
Originally by: Keiko Kobayashi

Please remove the overview keyboard navigation-based shortcuts. Nobody uses that anyway.

um I do, not sure why you think no one uses them, I love them.

Please Add:
SCAN shortcut for the Directional Scanner Window,

Launch Drones ( you have recall drones!, perhaps this would require us to set which drones are "primary" in the case of multiple groups).

I don't understand why when I am typing in chat, and I type shift, the system thinks I am trying to invoke a command.

In general the shortcuts are great, but they still seem rather limited, as in "here is what we think you want to do ... vs you decide what you want to do"


Erik Finnegan
Gallente
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
Posted - 2011.02.26 17:23:00 - [53]
 

Having been confused about the new concept, I actually filed a bug report about it, and it was swiftly attached to a defect by a bug hunter. Rolling Eyes

Combat shortcut without clicking but with overview focus is totally crazily unintuitive in a hit-click concept and should be scrapped. I understand your method 1, admittedly have grown to love CTRL-click to target, but a-b-c-d... are no modifier keys. I do not expect them to take effect only upon clicking.

Also, submitting a text message in the chat should immediately unfocus the chat. ( or add a button to leave chat )

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2011.02.26 17:32:00 - [54]
 

Yeah... forcing focus to remain on the overview is another example of why you guys are so terrible at designing UI of any kind.

Wow. Yeah being able to just use a keyboard shortcut sure is counter intuitive.

Contik Ardman
Posted - 2011.02.26 17:53:00 - [55]
 

I can only reiterate on the Overview freezing, that'd be a real nice feature. Let's say I jump through a stargate and want to warp to the next one on my route. This next stargate is at the bottom of my Overview. I hold S, move my mouse cursor over the stargate and just as I left-click it, some player comes into Overview range. My stargate shifts position and I accidentally S-left-click something else.

Overview freezing equals win!

Eiro
Minmatar
Techno-Wizard Industrial Technologies
Posted - 2011.02.26 18:13:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Contik Ardman
Let's say I jump through a stargate and want to warp to the next one on my route. This next stargate is at the bottom of my Overview. I hold S, move my mouse cursor over the stargate and just as I left-click it, some player comes into Overview range. My stargate shifts position and I accidentally S-left-click something else.


For simple navigation I sort my overview by decreasing Size (which is not one of the default columns). This way the stations and gates are all at the top (in most circumstances), and their ordering is consistent each time I enter a given system.

I can't find a shortcut setting for opening the contents of a cargo container/wreck in space, is it just missing?

Mikel Laurentson
Posted - 2011.02.26 18:25:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Contik Ardman
I can only reiterate on the Overview freezing, that'd be a real nice feature. Let's say I jump through a stargate and want to warp to the next one on my route. This next stargate is at the bottom of my Overview. I hold S, move my mouse cursor over the stargate and just as I left-click it, some player comes into Overview range. My stargate shifts position and I accidentally S-left-click something else.

Overview freezing equals win!


I've resorted to sorting my overview to have furthest-first. My target gate might not be at the top of the list, but it won't move (new entities on overview will be on-grid, and thus lower down the list).

Obviously risky in dangerous space, since you're that much less likely to spot hostiles decloaking or warping in. Freezing is just better.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.02.26 19:23:00 - [58]
 

I noticed yesterday that if overview has focus and you hit 'ctrl' without any kind of click, it will lock stuff. That sounds like a recipe for concordokken. A few posts here seem to indicate that it's happened to them.

Cresalle
Posted - 2011.02.26 22:45:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Cresalle on 26/02/2011 22:52:41
Dear CCP,

Sorry to ruin yet another bull****, self-aggrandizing "we have recieved overwhelmingly positive feedback" post by y'all, but I'd like to state the following clearly:

Told you so.

Thank you. That is all.
--Cressy
---------------------------------------
Oh, and while you're thinking about what Daedalus II mentioned (as well as many other people, inculding myself, prior to this blog) please keep in mind that you's destroyed the entire pilot input system by introducing the "OMG THE CTRL KEY IS DEPRESSED" message mechanic because of the crippling lag that it's creating.

Also, I'll check later to see if you've fixed the CTD issue with mouse-key shortcuts that I submitted a bug report about. (The bug report that you deleted instead of responding to.)

Denuo Secus
Posted - 2011.02.26 22:56:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Denuo Secus on 26/02/2011 22:56:33
I really like the new shortcut implementation! One of the best features of the last expansion imho. To be able to assign shortcuts without additional modifier key is a big plus! Also the freezing overview as soon and as long I press one of the command shortcuts is very nice. The command shortcuts (press key, then select target) wouldn't work without that. I guess I'm already dependent on the new "warp" or "orbit" commands - so don't take them away again plz :P

One request: please add a way to launch drones via shortcut! Maybe introduce something like numbered drone groups or something, similar like the slots of the ship. Binding this drone goups to shortcuts would solve the issue. It's a pity I have to fiddle a context menu infight to launch my drones.



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