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LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.02.24 19:33:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: LHA Tarawa on 24/02/2011 20:32:21
With removal of the learning skills that once occupied much of player's early time in game, new players can get right into learning other skills. Thinking about this, I wondered if it were possible to earn enough money in the 21 day free trial from a buddy invite to literally play for free, even the first month.

So, I set up a training plan that would get me into BC with acceptable support skills, in just under a week, and drones 5 and other skills ready to be runing L3s or maybe even some easier L4s in week and a half to 2 weeks.

I figure I'd need to be anle to make 5 million ISK an hour, 6 hours a day, for the last 10-11 days of the 21 day trial to have a reasonable chance of hitting the 325-350 million needed to buy a PLEX.

First roadblock is that you can't learn anything larger than crusier on trial.

Okay, but if I pimp out a cruiser, maybe I could still do L3s, for... maybe... close to 5 million an hour. Today I attempt to try it and....

When I try to start conversation with L3 agents, I just get a blank page. So I ask if this is intended game design. Yep. No running L3s on a trial account.

So, now I am left to wonder... why has CCP carefully constructed these roadblocks to truely playing for free?

I realize that they do not want trial accounts to be useful. No learning Industrial as they do not want a miner to create an army of trial accounts to haul for him. I can even see the "no BC" as maybe someone would use a fleet of trial accounts in high resist drakes to beguile enemies.

But the only reason I can think of for not allowing trials to pull L3s is to prevent them from making enough money to get that first PLEX in the trial period.

So, why?

SOMEONE is paying for that person's PLEX, so CCP is getting paid one way or another.

An ISD in the rookie help said it is to prevent the free players from "messin up the economy". I'm sorry, but my main making 1.5 billion a week running L4s, or my corp-mates running 3 and 4 mining accounts funded fully on PLEX has to put WAY more stress on the economy than a trail having a shot at making 350 million in 21 days to buy the first PLEX.

Does it mess up the economy less if my billionaire main transfers a PLEX to the trial, and I activate the account that way?

So, thoughts as to why trial accounts can't access L3 agents? Why does CCP not want you earning enough in the trial to buy the frist PLEX?

SmallGang Bandit
Posted - 2011.02.24 19:46:00 - [2]
 

Wahhh?

CCP limits access to certain skills, and areas of the game, to the paid player base.

So you want to save 21 days of paid account access on your 2nd/3rd/4th/10th account. You sign up for a trial, play as far along as you can get, then transfer ISK or a plex from your main. When you hit that 325-350 million ISK mark you transfer the cash back and net 0 here we go.

My less paranoid guess is to prevent 21 day accounts having any value for botting...

Evil Aye
Posted - 2011.02.24 19:47:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
BAAAAAAAAAW I CANT GET PAST LEVEL 20 WHILE ON TRIAL!

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:10:00 - [4]
 

I think you both miss the point.

I'm not whining that it is not possible. I'm wondering why CCP has done this.

How would it "mess up the economy" if trials could earn enough ISK in the 21 days to activate their account with PLEX?

Liorah
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:16:00 - [5]
 

Ninja Salvaging. Trading. Pirating.

... until CCP nerfs the max amount of money a trial can have, you CAN truly play for free. But if they do that, they'll probably end up breaking something else at the same time, like the ability to enter warp.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:20:00 - [6]
 

It was a simple question. Why does CCP not want trials to earn enough ISK in their trial to be able to activate with PLEX?

What is with all the grief? If you don't know, or have some relivant input as to why or why not it would be a good thing, then STFU!

I didn't even express an opinion in this thread. I'm not demanding CCP alter the policy.

I explained a situation, and asked why it is what it is?

But, you have convinced me I shoudl return to daily "T2 BPOs must go" posts on the S&I boards.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Kirkra
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:22:00 - [7]
 

How does mission running EVER get more money than exploration in early game?
And yes - exploration does allow you to easily pay for your first PLEX in 21 days, tried that.
Restricting what a trial-account can do is GOOD. If you don't understand that - well, can't help you much there.

LHA Tarawa
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:30:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kirkra
How does mission running EVER get more money than exploration in early game?
And yes - exploration does allow you to easily pay for your first PLEX in 21 days, tried that.
Restricting what a trial-account can do is GOOD. If you don't understand that - well, can't help you much there.


I thought of trying to make the money doing things like exploration and ninja salvage. The problem is, these tend to not scale well.

If 10K-20K or more trial accounts were constantly online trying to ninja salvge or hit the few high paying radar sites to get PLEX to activate, they'd either run out of salvage/sites or totally crush the market value of the items they are trying to sell.

I was looking for a totally scalable, fairly simple to execute, plan for playing totally for free, that doesn't step on the toes of any current players, that doesn't rely on hit or miss competition with other players for limited resources...

When I hit the limitation that trials can't run L3s, I was wondering why that limitation exists, and decided to ask about it here.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.02.24 20:54:00 - [9]
 

A long long time ago, I can still remember that one could login with more then one trial from the same host. NPC trade good buy and sell orders worked different too. A cunning individual could have made billions within 14 days given he had plenty of RAM (there was no memory mapping back then).

There are a few more things you could do with trial accounts that I don't want to discuss here. Most of them are stopped with trial skill restrictions.

So there was good reason to those restrictions. Any botter would love to have them lifted.

Lady Aja
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:02:00 - [10]
 

easy to get 350m. I know noobs getting 50-100m a day without firing a single shot.

Mister Rocknrolla
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:04:00 - [11]
 

Two possible explanations:

1) The line had to be drawn somewhere...they chose Level 2|Level 3.

2) CCP: Because we said so.


Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:05:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 24/02/2011 21:07:49

What's the problem with paying subscription just once and play for ISK for the rest?

When you upgrade your trial you can immediately train all the neccessary skills to fly a BC and do L3/4 missions or plexes. I don't see it as very horrible that CCP wants you to pay at least 1 time in RL money. Not nearly horrible enough to make a whole forum thread about it, it seems common sense to me.

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.24 21:41:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 24/02/2011 21:42:13
Not too hard to earn 500M on the 21d trial.

Originally by: Jennifer Starling
What's the problem with paying subscription just once and play for ISK for the rest?


This is what I did... or, well, once I forgot to buy PLEX in time and had to use PaySafeCard.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:00:00 - [14]
 

Hmm, maybe because CCP is a company, and what do you do with a company? Try to make a profit...and what happens to companies that are unable to make a profit? They close...

...so it's either make no money and let everyone play for free...in which case they would go broke and there would be no more game to play for free...OR...make a profit, pay your employees...


...not sure which I would choose...perhaps you care to help us figure this one out?

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:01:00 - [15]
 

Playing to pay is not playing for free.

Bet you think the minerals you mine are free too.

Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:14:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Why Meeeeeh
Christ, not this idiot again. Couldn't you, I dunno, just join the current "ban t2 BPO's" - whinethread?

^this
Game gives lots of moneymaking posibilities to a noob. But still there is alot of dumb "i heard EVE is a free and you can pay by gold" fools, that just following L1-2-3-4 on all their short and boring trial (or 2-3 month) lifetime in the game. Then failed at EVE, they return to their wow forums and spread the word about boring spacegame Twisted Evil
Allowing L3 on trial its like spawning another horde of brainless robots to Motsu.

Ai Shun
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: LHA Tarawa
When I hit the limitation that trials can't run L3s, I was wondering why that limitation exists, and decided to ask about it here.


We'd all be guessing. You could try asking CCP through one of the direct channels, but I somehow doubt they'd tell you. My guesses:

1. RMT. Most games offer restricted trials in-part to combat this and to prevent the RMT industry from simply recycling trial accounts, make 1,000,000,000 ISK off the trial in 21 days and then recycling it.

2. Trial conversions for profitability. The trial is the bait and lure. They earn money by converting you into a paying customer and they do that by restricting what you have access to on a trial account. They are, after all, a business.

Lucia Wilber
Minmatar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:19:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 24/02/2011 22:19:19
Everyone is thrashing this guy, but he does make a valid point, which is "Why can't I exclusively use ISK to pay my monthly fees AND trial conversion?" He basically wants to have it so that from day one, if you know what you're doing, you never have to fork out a single cent (or whatever currency you use) of real life money to play. I don't see the problem here. As he stated, if you use ISK to buy plex, that means that SOMEONE paid CCP for your month of game time. I think the issue here is CCP's restrictions on trial accounts, which do not exist to make them money, but rather to help prevent exploitation as much as possible. The other thing is that CCP still treats your "copy" of the game like a physical copy. You still have to buy a license in order to have a full account, thus the cost of purchasing a full account. This is synonymous with buying a hard copy in a store.

I think it would be nice if CCP allowed you to use ISK to convert your trial into a full account, but I'm still in favor of requiring payment information (credit card, verified PayPal account, etc) so as to prevent anonymous accounts from being used for griefing and exploits. After all, banning an account means nothing if the same person can just create a new one on the fly.

Why Meeeeeh
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:27:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lucia Wilber
Edited by: Lucia Wilber on 24/02/2011 22:19:19
Everyone is thrashing this guy, but he does make a valid point, which is "Why can't I exclusively use ISK to pay my monthly fees AND trial conversion?" He basically wants to have it so that from day one, if you know what you're doing, you never have to fork out a single cent (or whatever currency you use) of real life money to play. I don't see the problem here. As he stated, if you use ISK to buy plex, that means that SOMEONE paid CCP for your month of game time. I think the issue here is CCP's restrictions on trial accounts, which do not exist to make them money, but rather to help prevent exploitation as much as possible. The other thing is that CCP still treats your "copy" of the game like a physical copy. You still have to buy a license in order to have a full account, thus the cost of purchasing a full account. This is synonymous with buying a hard copy in a store.

I think it would be nice if CCP allowed you to use ISK to convert your trial into a full account, but I'm still in favor of requiring payment information (credit card, verified PayPal account, etc) so as to prevent anonymous accounts from being used for griefing and exploits. After all, banning an account means nothing if the same person can just create a new one on the fly.

I do believe a plex, bought with ISK, will upgrade a trial account to a full account. Unless this was changed sometime during the last 2-3 months and I missed it, this should still be the case?

Kirkra
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:34:00 - [20]
 

Lucia, the problem is not that trials can't use ISK from day 1. They CAN.
Problem is how difficult is it and how exploitable is it.
Credit card details are asked but in the end they can't really be used to ban a single person, since credit cards are NOT the only way to pay for the game with RL money and restricting the game only to those that have credit cards is nonsense from a marketing point of view. (Not to mention this gives a dire 21+ feeling to the game. Not sure this is bad though).

The reason for these limitations (I will repeat again) is how easy it is to use and abuse these methods. Limiting the obvious ways worked well. Mining or missioning is easily abusable (10 days for a mining barge if it were available, 11 days mining on 10+ trial acc's. 10 chars running L3's simultaneously on perma-tanked drone boats like Myrm).
This is mostly due to that it's easy to implement and doesn't require much player input.
The "difficult" ways of gaining ISK that is still available to new players (Missioning with corps, scouting for fleets or in wormholes for money, exploration, etc). are NOT restricted, or at least not as much.

Limiting abuse in other ways proved to be more difficult.

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:41:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 24/02/2011 22:42:04
Originally by: Why Meeeeeh
I do believe a plex, bought with ISK, will upgrade a trial account to a full account. Unless this was changed sometime during the last 2-3 months and I missed it, this should still be the case?


Pretty sure turning a trial into a real account never worked with (a single) PLEX.

Why Meeeeeh
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:44:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa
Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 24/02/2011 22:42:04
Originally by: Why Meeeeeh
I do believe a plex, bought with ISK, will upgrade a trial account to a full account. Unless this was changed sometime during the last 2-3 months and I missed it, this should still be the case?


Pretty sure turning a trial into a real account never worked with (a single) PLEX.

Pretty sure I did just that at least twice the last year.Cool

Shian Yang
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:51:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kirkra
Credit card details are asked but in the end they can't really be used to ban a single person, since credit cards are NOT the only way to pay for the game with RL money and restricting the game only to those that have credit cards is nonsense from a marketing point of view. (Not to mention this gives a dire 21+ feeling to the game. Not sure this is bad though).


I can walk into our local Post Shop, throw down $50 and get a credit card with a $50 balance in 10 minutes and they usually work just fine. I use them for most online transactions so my regular card details stays outside of some other database.

Shoopa Whoopa
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:53:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Why Meeeeeh
Pretty sure I did just that at least twice the last year.Cool


Then CCP ripped me off. Embarassed

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:53:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Jovan Geldon on 24/02/2011 22:53:00
Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa

Originally by: Why Meeeeeh
I do believe a plex, bought with ISK, will upgrade a trial account to a full account. Unless this was changed sometime during the last 2-3 months and I missed it, this should still be the case?


Pretty sure turning a trial into a real account never worked with (a single) PLEX.


I'm pretty sure you're talking out of your damm ass there, buddy.

insulubria
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:57:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: insulubria on 24/02/2011 23:31:31
Edited by: insulubria on 24/02/2011 23:08:21
yet a 5 day old character scans you down and salvages your armor plates

thats about 4-8 mill/30 minutes. + lol griefing

l2n 2 exploit(play the game as its apparently meant to be played on a trial) ......mkay

I mean seriously.

the ammount of crying that goes on in major mission hubs is a pretty good indicator, people get ninja looted not by seasoned threatening people.

but by anonymous 4 day old disposable trial characters that cant have revenge or repercussions inflicted upon them since they're infinity discarded and reincarnated..

Most likely Inducing all the more rage/tears

Personally I fly a tengu with a sig radius around 80 and a sensor strength the same.

So I never get griefed, myself since nothing can scan me down.

I don't think trials should have the ability to probe down something Inside a mission, or outside

Just like it was the right move to remove badgers.

but more so now because you cant tell if its chinese SCAN PROBE FARMERS or just people griefing with impunity



-edit-

Make friends, join a incursion vanguard fleet.

100-140 million/hour and you're just sitting on an acceleration gate. you don't have to join the fight, you don't have to shoot or get shot at.

In fact the good fleets are made of of 8 webber bonus'ed t2/faction battleships and 2 guardians and lay waste to override transfer arrays in 7 minutes.

every other vanguard site in even less time, 4 minutes 30 seconds for a nation commander site.

these fleets are rare, but do exist.

we've fleeted rifter's and other strays that warp in behind us for the shizzz and gigglezz when we've had an open spot.

since 9 people don't get paid any more than 10 people. might as well give it to someone.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.02.24 23:03:00 - [27]
 

Every restriction imposed on trail accounts have been due to the fault of RMTers, 30days was just too much for many Bots the RMTers use.

Thats your bottom line why.

Orion GUardian
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.24 23:07:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: insulubria
yet a 5 day old character scans you down and salvages your armor plates

thats about 4-8 mill/30 minutes. + lol griefing

l2n 2 exploit(play the game as its apparently meant to be played on a trial) ......mkay

I mean seriously.

the ammount of crying that goes on in major mission hubs is a pretty good indicator, people get ninja looted not by seasoned threatening people.

but by anonymous 4 day old disposable trial characters that cant have revenge or repercussions inflicted upon them since they're infinity discarded and reincarnated..

Most likely Inducing all the more rage/tears

Personally I fly a tengu with a sig radius around 80 and a sensor strength the same.

So I never get griefed, myself since nothing can scan me down.

I don't think trials should have the ability to probe down something Inside a mission, or outside

Just like it was the right move to remove badgers.

but more so now because you cant tell if its chinese SCAN PROBE FARMERS or just people griefing with impunity




Scanning down missions and salvaging the wrecks is not griefing. Looting the wrecks does trigger a flag for them though so you could shoot them. Stop whining

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.02.24 23:10:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Kirkra
The "difficult" ways of gaining ISK that is still available to new players (Missioning with corps, scouting for fleets or in wormholes for money, exploration, etc). are NOT restricted, or at least not as much.


There is nothing stopping a trial account training for ninja salvaging, since all the appropriate skills are trained as part of the tutorial missions. There is nothing stopping a trial account training for station trading, T1 manufacturing, or hauling small valuable cargo.

A buddy-invited trial account operated by someone with a couple of hours a day to play, should be able to rake in the ISK required to pay for a PLEX within the first 21 days. Run missions, salvage wrecks, probe down exploration sites, engage in station trading - it's all one big opportunity waiting to be exploited.

I'm not sure what LHA Tarawa's complaint is, apart from the game requiring you to be a little more imaginative than simply grinding missions to make ISK.


insulubria
Posted - 2011.02.24 23:11:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Orion GUardian

Scanning down missions and salvaging the wrecks is not griefing. Looting the wrecks does trigger a flag for them though so you could shoot them. Stop whining


learn to read brosef.

Never happens to me.

Like farmers running around in badgers and having access to battlecruisers was provably a bad thing for ccp.

Im sure they'll find the same is true for scan probing players that are exclusively on trials and just pass off the spoils to a real char some time down the road.

its the EXACT SAME THING

you're the one crying.


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