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blankseplocked Minmatar T2 ammo... still useless?
 
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Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.24 04:42:00 - [1]
 

Minmatar T2 ammo does both Kinetic and explosive damage, with up to 66% of the damage being explosive.

What good is that when many ships have very high explosive damage by default?

For example, the Drake has a 50% and 40% resist to exp and kin damage by default.
The Nighthawk has 50% and 62% resists

The Myrm has the same stats as the Drake.
The Astarte has 50% and 77.5%

The Harbinger has the same stats as the Drake.
The Absolution has an 81.25% and a 61.5% resist for explosive and kinetic damage by default.

The cane has a 50% and 40% resist by default
The Sleip has the same resists as well.

Now i can appreciate that some T2 ships have better resists (Munin/Vargur/Nighthawk/etc), but i think nearly every races ships has lower em and therm resists be default.

Lets compare the cane to the harby. By default the Cane can resist 20% of thermal damage and no em damage in shields, but can resist 60% of em and 35% of thermal damage in armour.

The harby however can resist 40% and 50% of kinetic and thermal damage in shields, and 25% and 20% in armour.

With a full rack of 720 T2's, the cane can dish out 3177 alpha/294 DPS.
The Harby can dish out 1359 alpha and 323 DPS.

Tracking on the 720's: 0.02062
Tracking on the HBL 2's: 0.03094

Optimal+falloff with T2 short range ammo: Harby, 7.5+10. Cane, 7.5+22

Optimal+falloff with T2 long range ammo: Harby: 54+10. Cane, 54+22

Considering resists and damage types, is T2 projectile ammo worth using on other ships?

After running through the numbers, and seeing the results, i think i have convinced myself that T2 Projectile ammo is infact very good against nearly any ship except T2 ships and the drake (due to it's huge shield amount and equally big kinetic and exp resists for its shields.

I have convinced myself, but instead of deleting this entry, i will post it up.

Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
Posted - 2011.02.24 07:42:00 - [2]
 

Really? Explosive dmg sucks vs shields?
NO WAI!
Lasers must not be worth using either cause armour have massive em resists...

Quake is pretty terrible tbh, that's mostly due to slightly higher damage being outweighed by awful range and tracking.

Hail is certainly worth using against armour tanked targets (cept amarr t2 ships ofc), of course I'm sure someone will come and say it's awful due to X ship kiting at Y range.


Beauty of minnie ships is that you can pick your ammo to match your target, EMP vs T1 shield ships, t2 caldari, and t2 amarr with enough lows to fit a thermic hardener, PP vs nano t2 amarr and active tanked armour ships, hail vs passive armour tanked ships and T2 minnie ships.

Considering the vast amount of passive armour ships, yes T2 is worth using.

Cycotic Maniac
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.02.24 10:30:00 - [3]
 

minmatar t2 ammo is good now. Both long and short, for arty and ac. You just need to learn to use it Wink

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:47:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Beauty of minnie ships is that you can pick your ammo to match your target,


... the only race that cant is amarr so not that special tbh

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.02.24 14:31:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: ChromeStriker
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Beauty of minnie ships is that you can pick your ammo to match your target,


... the only race that cant is amarr so not that special tbh


You tool.

Gallente - all weapons are kin/therm unless you have autos on a Myrm or something and even then the damage choice makes up about half of your dps. Yes, you can choose drone damage type but hovering over this is the other stats (like speed / hp / sentry tracking) and the limiting size of drone bays so it's not like you have an in-battle choice.

Caldari - Mostly missiles, which are kin-boosted so unless you are hitting a large resistance hole it's not really worth switching away. Other weapon: hybrids - Kin/Therm again.

Amarr - Yeah like you say no choice appart from few missile/drone boats but the drone option suffers the same as above and missile boats are the exception to the rule.

Minmattar - The only race you can seriously say can choose damage type without docking up, re-fitting etc.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.02.24 17:10:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Wacktopia
Originally by: ChromeStriker
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Beauty of minnie ships is that you can pick your ammo to match your target,


... the only race that cant is amarr so not that special tbh


You tool.


This. But I'll nitpick:

Originally by: Wacktopia
Gallente - all weapons are kin/therm unless you have autos on a Myrm or something and even then the damage choice makes up about half of your dps. Yes, you can choose drone damage type but hovering over this is the other stats (like speed / hp / sentry tracking) and the limiting size of drone bays so it's not like you have an in-battle choice.


Ishtar and Domi hulls do in fact have a decent degree of flexibility on damage type. But only from drones of course.

Originally by: Wacktopia
Caldari - Mostly missiles, which are kin-boosted so unless you are hitting a large resistance hole it's not really worth switching away. Other weapon: hybrids - Kin/Therm again.


On missiles at least you can switch out. And of course there are the RoF-bonused missile ships (Rook, Raven) and the rainbow damage bonused ships (Hookbill, Kestrel). But no, you can't really consider, say, a Drake to be fully selectable.

Originally by: Wacktopia
Amarr - Yeah like you say no choice appart from few missile/drone boats but the drone option suffers the same as above and missile boats are the exception to the rule.


The Arbi hulls actually have pretty decent drone selection do to limited bandwidth and large drone bays. Plus the Khanid ships do have rainbow missile bonuses (or none; I'm looking at you, Curse and Damnation). So Amarr non-laser hulls actually end up with more flexibility than anything except Minmatar.

Originally by: Wacktopia
Minmattar - The only race you can seriously say can choose damage type without docking up, re-fitting etc.


Yup.

Wait, why is this a point of discussion in the first place again?

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.02.24 17:23:00 - [7]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Nope. Only better than RF Fusion between 2-6km, and not by enough to justify the loss of damage as you do your battle charge.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.02.24 19:07:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 24/02/2011 19:10:29
Barrage and Tremor are good, stay away from Hail and Quake. Nothing changed, except all the faction shortrange is viable now.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:28:00 - [9]
 

Yeah have been using RF PP and EMP mostly for PVP lately, and it is good.

My OP was more focused on the damage types of Minmatar T2 ammo though, and the natural shield/armour resists on ships in Eve, not the range, falloff, anything else.

In the end i found out it was pretty well balanced with Amarr T2 ammo, T2 ship resists etc.

Really the only T1 ship that Hail/Barrage would struggle with (in theory at least) would be the drake

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.02.24 22:32:00 - [10]
 

Hail is good when you control the range because you can keep transversal at pretty much zero and do insane damage.

Yurij Sobeit
Posted - 2011.02.28 14:17:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Wacktopia

Minmattar - The only race you can seriously say can choose damage type without docking up, re-fitting etc.


Sorry to be off-topic but no, not really. You can't just say "I want to do thermal damage" and press a button to do so. What you can do is select the ammo type that does mostly thermal damage (Phased Plasma) and then accomodate with it's range / tracking specs.
I really wonder why people like to point out Minmatar strenghts as if they were OP. (see all the blah-blah about autocannons, hurricane, rifters or whatever.)

About T2 ammo, I don't like it much either. With the exception of barrage, faction ammo seems superior against most T2 ships. Against most T1 ship, standard ammo would do the trick...
That said, I always carry T2 and faction for PVP. (not so much heh, don't bother trying to loot me !)

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.02.28 15:08:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Wacktopia
Originally by: ChromeStriker
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Beauty of minnie ships is that you can pick your ammo to match your target,


... the only race that cant is amarr so not that special tbh


You tool.


sorry for not going off on one but il explain now...

gellente: main weapon Are drones... mostly and those that dont are using projectiles so they can actually hurt stuff (yes again im generalising but you know where im coming from)
Caldari: again yes you may get a kin boost but you can also switch damage just as fast as minmitar projectiles
amarr: apart from 1 or 2 ships its lazers

sorry for the past generalising didnt realise we wanted essays to explane Rolling Eyes

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2011.02.28 21:19:00 - [13]
 

Solution: Bring more dps. If the target has 20% better resist for your type of damage, bring a friend who shoots the the same stuff. Or even better...learn to fly ships that are suited for the target.

Yes, boohoo some weapons do only "one" damage and they suck at some, but rule against others. Live with it. It would be rather boring if EVERYONE got to choose their ammo all the time. You could remove resists after that...

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:06:00 - [14]
 

No wonder you need 5k members in your alliance.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:11:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
No wonder you need 5k members in your alliance.


You sir are my hero.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.02.28 23:18:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: ChromeStriker

sorry for not going off on one but il explain now...

gellente: main weapon Are drones... mostly and those that dont are using projectiles so they can actually hurt stuff (yes again im generalising but you know where im coming from)

Gallente's main weapon is hybrids. There are exactly TWO dedicated gal drone boats, the ishtar (and even THAT gets a bonus to hybrid damage) and the myrm. The domi tends to use mainly drones but only because people ignore the awesome gun bonus it gets (it only has one turret less, with the same damage bonus, as the megathron) Same goes for the vexor. There are a bunch of gallente ships that tend to be dual weapon systems (hybrids and drones), and a bunch that just use hybrids, but very few that rely entirely on drones for their DPS.

That doesn't even mention the fact that the drones have stats other than damage types that determine which you use, or that you really only get to choose between drones fit in your drone bay, which does not leave a lot of room for variation after you bring the required drones + a few spares.
Originally by: ChromeStriker

Caldari: again yes you may get a kin boost but you can also switch damage just as fast as minmitar projectiles
amarr: apart from 1 or 2 ships its lazers

sorry for the past generalising didnt realise we wanted essays to explane Rolling Eyes
Caldari only have a couple ships with legit damage selection. The rest use kinetic 95% of the time and that's not even counting all the hybrid ships (of which there are just as many as there are missile ships in the first place)


 

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