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Starshi
Posted - 2011.02.21 14:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Starshi on 21/02/2011 14:53:06
So i want to buy alt to make money with and i am wondering which will be better - mining or manufacturing/researching/inventing stuff ? It's for a mid-long term, so i don't look for short-term gratification. I am also wondering if i can combine both activities.







Nimaz
Posted - 2011.02.21 15:57:00 - [2]
 

Heres a lil shortie, im a manufacturer and i mine most of my minerals myself. but let me give you a lil demo here to get you goin.
lets make an example with a standard blueprint for a caldari Shuttle. this shuttle non-researched needs 3000 tritanium to be built. trit is valued 3.17isk per unit as im writing this. So 3.17*3000=9510 isk. suppose youre just a miner. and today you mined exactly 3000 trit. and earned your self 9510 isk by selling it instantly. not bad. what the manufacturer does is that he builds a shuttle. wich he sells for 15.000 isk. and gets the money abit later. in the long run the manufacturer will make more money than the miner. in theory. miners get smaller amounts..but they are instant sales. well. i hope you get the idea hehe.

(this example was a crude one, the numbers may not be perfect, but the princible is sound)

Nikolai Kondratiev
Sphere Design Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.21 16:17:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Nikolai Kondratiev on 21/02/2011 16:18:45
You can easily combine both, since industry will just require you to stay in the area around your base (at least the same region) and

But even if you're mining 23 hours a day, you'll still have to buy a ton of minerals (and other things if you make T2) and you'll probably make a lot more money from your few industry clicks than mining 10 hours a day in high sec.

But if you mine, invent stuff, manufacture stuff and do some PI on short cycles, at least you'll be pretty busy keeping all that running.

Tinu Moorhsum
Posted - 2011.02.21 16:50:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nimaz
what the manufacturer does is that he builds a shuttle. wich he sells for 15.000 isk. and gets the money abit later. in the long run the manufacturer will make more money than the miner. in theory. miners get smaller amounts..but they are instant sales. well. i hope you get the idea hehe.

(this example was a crude one, the numbers may not be perfect, but the princible is sound)


There's a caveat to this which shouldn't go unnoticed, which is depending on WHAT you are making, it may actually pay better to directly sell the minerals to the market.

Just to pick a random example, if you make a Drake (at least this week) you will be able to sell it in jita for about 31mil isk. However, if you just directly sold the minerals required to make a drake then you would make 32.6 million isk.

In other words, you can say that some "miner/manufacturers" are actually in a sense paying for the right to make modules. This is the case for a LOT of the modules on the market, especially T1 modules and ships.

The other thing that being an industrialist will require is a bit of an infrastructure. You'll need a base where you can do your manufacturing and mining and you'll need blueprints, which will have to be researched. You will also need to have certain skills maxed out including some trade skills. You will also need a freighter, which of course you will need to be able to fly... It takes a couple of months of training before you will be in a position to get started but if you don't do these things, there really is no point. Moreover, if you wnat to do T2 manufacturing on any scale then the infrastructure you will require will require owning your own POS.

The short story here is that becoming a miner is MUCH less skill intensive (takes a few weeks to get out of the gate), and you can make *almost* as much money as most people doing T1 manufacturing .... and that without spending the billion or so on skills and infrastructure you need to get going.

My advice, therefore would be to start with mining and use the money you make doing that to pay for the things you'll need to start manufacturing.


Golanik
Posted - 2011.02.21 19:54:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Golanik on 21/02/2011 19:55:14
Originally by: Nimaz
Heres a lil shortie, im a manufacturer and i mine most of my minerals myself. but let me give you a lil demo here to get you goin.
lets make an example with a standard blueprint for a caldari Shuttle. this shuttle non-researched needs 3000 tritanium to be built. trit is valued 3.17isk per unit as im writing this. So 3.17*3000=9510 isk. suppose youre just a miner. and today you mined exactly 3000 trit. and earned your self 9510 isk by selling it instantly. not bad. what the manufacturer does is that he builds a shuttle. wich he sells for 15.000 isk. and gets the money abit later. in the long run the manufacturer will make more money than the miner. in theory. miners get smaller amounts..but they are instant sales. well. i hope you get the idea hehe.

(this example was a crude one, the numbers may not be perfect, but the princible is sound)


Not sure about this, at least for the shuttle example.

It takes 25 minutes (with top manufacturing skills and bonuses) to manufacture a Caldari Shuttle. It also costs, as you pointed out, 9510 ISK in materials. 25 minutes + 9510 ISK results in 15,000 ISK. So the actual return on 25 minutes invested is 4500 ISK.

You can mine a lot more than 3000 units of tritanium in 25 minutes. But let's say that it takes 25 minutes to mine that much. Your return on investment is 9510 ISK. That's nearly twice as much ISK in the same amount of time. And like I said, you can mine a lot more than 3000 units of trit in 25 minutes.

Maybe the Caldari Shuttle is a bad example to compare, but mining is not a shabby way to make ISK all by itself.

Miner Stories
Posted - 2011.02.21 22:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Golanik
Edited by: Golanik on 21/02/2011 19:55:14
Originally by: Nimaz
Heres a lil shortie, im a manufacturer and i mine most of my minerals myself. but let me give you a lil demo here to get you goin.
lets make an example with a standard blueprint for a caldari Shuttle. this shuttle non-researched needs 3000 tritanium to be built. trit is valued 3.17isk per unit as im writing this. So 3.17*3000=9510 isk. suppose youre just a miner. and today you mined exactly 3000 trit. and earned your self 9510 isk by selling it instantly. not bad. what the manufacturer does is that he builds a shuttle. wich he sells for 15.000 isk. and gets the money abit later. in the long run the manufacturer will make more money than the miner. in theory. miners get smaller amounts..but they are instant sales. well. i hope you get the idea hehe.

(this example was a crude one, the numbers may not be perfect, but the princible is sound)


Not sure about this, at least for the shuttle example.

It takes 25 minutes (with top manufacturing skills and bonuses) to manufacture a Caldari Shuttle. It also costs, as you pointed out, 9510 ISK in materials. 25 minutes + 9510 ISK results in 15,000 ISK. So the actual return on 25 minutes invested is 4500 ISK.

You can mine a lot more than 3000 units of tritanium in 25 minutes. But let's say that it takes 25 minutes to mine that much. Your return on investment is 9510 ISK. That's nearly twice as much ISK in the same amount of time. And like I said, you can mine a lot more than 3000 units of trit in 25 minutes.

Maybe the Caldari Shuttle is a bad example to compare, but mining is not a shabby way to make ISK all by itself.


This is true - but you should bear in mind that the 25 minutes manufacturing the shuttle is passive income; - the OP could mine whilst the shuttle is being built, or run a mission, or rob his corp hangar - so he's still making more ISK than you are by solely mining.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.02.21 22:13:00 - [7]
 

Long story short, you need DOZENS of typical miners to supply the materials a single manufacturing character can use.
Mining is "paid by the hour actually spent working" work, manufacturing is "percentage gain" and/or "paid by the day passed" work.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.22 00:33:00 - [8]
 

Every corp in our alliance has folk who mine.. we have one corp that has all the BP's and a large pool of money they use for buying minerals at a good price from the alliance members. That way we always have the minerals we need. Buying the minerals doesn't give you a huge margin to work with but you can still make a profit.

Tinu Moorhsum
Posted - 2011.02.22 11:22:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Barbara Nichole
Every corp in our alliance has folk who mine.. we have one corp that has all the BP's and a large pool of money they use for buying minerals at a good price from the alliance members. That way we always have the minerals we need. Buying the minerals doesn't give you a huge margin to work with but you can still make a profit.


Actually, this post kind of tips on a concept that should be made clear,

Namely that if you mine minerals, they are not free.

Many miner/manufacturers don't understand this concept and that's probably why we can buy many T1 modules and ships at less than the cost of building them. These people are simply putting extra work into something that makes them less profit than directly selling the minerals would get them... They *think* they're making money but what they're really doing is throwing away isk that they could have had in their wallet.

In fact, as a manufacturer, you *always* need to account for the buying price of minerals in your calculations even if you mine them yourself. If you don't (and you are indeed buying minerals) then you may in fact be putting a lot of effort into *losing* isk. Likewise, if you are mining your minerals then you need to know if the thing you intend to make will--after spending the time to make, transport, and sell it--give you more isk than you could have made by just selling the minerals.

In other words if you don't account for the buying prices of minerals in your calculations then you can easily either lose money outright or put loads of time into making less than you could have.

Which brings me to the next point, which is that being a successful manufacturer requires some *really* good spreadsheet tools. Tools that account for all your costs: production line rental, broker fees, taxes, mineral costs, bpo costs, running a POS, writing off the cost of buying a freighter etc etc etc. There are a lot of costs involved in making that profit and you simply can't ignore it.

That said, it *is* possible to make good money doing it if you are organised and you make the right things. A while ago I was doing T1 manufacturing as a side thing and made a good spreadsheet for it and did manage to make about 100mil a week extra for a couple of hours of work. At the moment I"m not doing it though because I needed a break from grinding spreadsheets. The nice thing about Eve, I guess, is that there are many ways to grind isk so if whatever you're doing burns you out, you can go do something else for a while instead.

T-

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2011.02.22 12:24:00 - [10]
 

Depends on what you like doing i'd say. If you like mining...then do mining. If you like industrial side...I would still mine and use those minerals for manufacturing. Yes, the shuttle needs 25min to be built. You can mine that time and still get minerals and then sell the shuttle. It's not that had to build stuff when you mine. They don't counter-attack each others. Of course to sell anything with profit you will need tradeskills. This also included selling the stuff you mine so you will need tradeskills no matter what. The key thing is...are you willing to buy the minerals or rather mine them. If you want to buy them...then you have clickfest you wouldn't believe.... and all the fun of 0.01 isk modifying! In truth...mining sounds better...

To so invention you need datacores and thus perhaps the most passive income channel there is (r&d agents). You will fail numerous T2 attempts and cores aren't cheap either. I'd say...start mining, start selling it and then think about moving up in the foodchain and making use of the mining abilities. You might want to focus on certain minerals only and buying the "cheap stuff" from the market.

Golanik
Posted - 2011.02.22 14:05:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Miner Stories
Originally by: Golanik
Edited by: Golanik on 21/02/2011 19:55:14
Originally by: Nimaz
Heres a lil shortie, im a manufacturer and i mine most of my minerals myself. but let me give you a lil demo here to get you goin.
lets make an example with a standard blueprint for a caldari Shuttle. this shuttle non-researched needs 3000 tritanium to be built. trit is valued 3.17isk per unit as im writing this. So 3.17*3000=9510 isk. suppose youre just a miner. and today you mined exactly 3000 trit. and earned your self 9510 isk by selling it instantly. not bad. what the manufacturer does is that he builds a shuttle. wich he sells for 15.000 isk. and gets the money abit later. in the long run the manufacturer will make more money than the miner. in theory. miners get smaller amounts..but they are instant sales. well. i hope you get the idea hehe.

(this example was a crude one, the numbers may not be perfect, but the princible is sound)


Not sure about this, at least for the shuttle example.

It takes 25 minutes (with top manufacturing skills and bonuses) to manufacture a Caldari Shuttle. It also costs, as you pointed out, 9510 ISK in materials. 25 minutes + 9510 ISK results in 15,000 ISK. So the actual return on 25 minutes invested is 4500 ISK.

You can mine a lot more than 3000 units of tritanium in 25 minutes. But let's say that it takes 25 minutes to mine that much. Your return on investment is 9510 ISK. That's nearly twice as much ISK in the same amount of time. And like I said, you can mine a lot more than 3000 units of trit in 25 minutes.

Maybe the Caldari Shuttle is a bad example to compare, but mining is not a shabby way to make ISK all by itself.


This is true - but you should bear in mind that the 25 minutes manufacturing the shuttle is passive income; - the OP could mine whilst the shuttle is being built, or run a mission, or rob his corp hangar - so he's still making more ISK than you are by solely mining.


This is also true.

Tehg Rhind
Posted - 2011.02.22 23:00:00 - [12]
 

As has been said before, mining and industry have very little to do with each other. The exception is when you aren't near a market hub (null sec or w-space). Industrialists should be buying their minerals off the market and miners should be selling them, and an industrialist will go through many times over the mineral amounts a miner can bring in. The advantage of integrating the two is limited, basically you can compress minerals into products for transport.

The disadvantage of integrating is massive, since being effective in both will require a lot more skill points invested, a lot more time researching the additional career, and a lot more investment of isk (mining ships for a miner, bpos for an industrialist, skill books for both)

so, looking at them as mutually exclusive choices:

Mining - passive income from day 1 to day hulk. Very low risk. Very low effort. Ceiling to income.

Industry - requires active research and work to bring in profit. Depending on what you build may require massive skill points. PE 5 is required as a minimum for anything except faction ship manufacturing and a couple other things. That's the minimum. To have a diversified industry you can train SP indefinitely. I am currently on 18 mil and I know of at least another 20 mil sp I would like. That aside, there is no limit to how much isk you can make in industry.


From what you described mining sounds like what you want. Get in a covetor, turn on your beams and alt tab to your main.

Actrom
Posted - 2011.02.22 23:12:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Golanik
Edited by: Golanik on 21/02/2011 19:55:14
Originally by: Nimaz
Heres a lil shortie, im a manufacturer and i mine most of my minerals myself. but let me give you a lil demo here to get you goin.
lets make an example with a standard blueprint for a caldari Shuttle. this shuttle non-researched needs 3000 tritanium to be built. trit is valued 3.17isk per unit as im writing this. So 3.17*3000=9510 isk. suppose youre just a miner. and today you mined exactly 3000 trit. and earned your self 9510 isk by selling it instantly. not bad. what the manufacturer does is that he builds a shuttle. wich he sells for 15.000 isk. and gets the money abit later. in the long run the manufacturer will make more money than the miner. in theory. miners get smaller amounts..but they are instant sales. well. i hope you get the idea hehe.

(this example was a crude one, the numbers may not be perfect, but the princible is sound)


Not sure about this, at least for the shuttle example.

It takes 25 minutes (with top manufacturing skills and bonuses) to manufacture a Caldari Shuttle. It also costs, as you pointed out, 9510 ISK in materials. 25 minutes + 9510 ISK results in 15,000 ISK. So the actual return on 25 minutes invested is 4500 ISK.

You can mine a lot more than 3000 units of tritanium in 25 minutes. But let's say that it takes 25 minutes to mine that much. Your return on investment is 9510 ISK. That's nearly twice as much ISK in the same amount of time. And like I said, you can mine a lot more than 3000 units of trit in 25 minutes.

Maybe the Caldari Shuttle is a bad example to compare, but mining is not a shabby way to make ISK all by itself.


had to post because this is stupid...

make more then 1 shuttle at a time.... that 25m is worth more then 1 shuttle as you can run more then 1 manu slot. So your example is infact very very stupid.

Radamant Nemess
Posted - 2011.02.25 16:03:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tehg Rhind
As has been said before, mining and industry have very little to do with each other.


I still cant forget that 2 and-then-some days of researching lvl 5 industry skill required for a Retriever..

Julien Brellier
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:17:00 - [15]
 

Do not fall into the trap of trying to mine all the different minerals you need yourself.
Work out which one brings in most isk, mine nothing other than that, sell it then buy the other minerals that you need for your manufacturing run.

Idea

Ave Volta
Perkone
Posted - 2011.02.26 06:41:00 - [16]
 

Once you scale up enough in manufacturing there is no possible way to mine enough by yourself to supply your needs. Furthermore the profits you can make even off of T1 production can dwarf any income you can make off of mining.

For instance, I have been running production lines that require about 7 Billion isk in minerals to run on a 5 day cycle. Currently this nets me around 1.7 Billion per month, and really, I'm being lazy about it. I'm not really even taking much time to research the most profitable items out of the BPO's I own to manufacture based on price fluxuations. I could probably get another 5% profits at least if I was less lazy about it. I also use RF to move all my mins.

Anyhoo, I guess the point is try making 1.7B per month mining with very little effort. Good luck with that...


Mister Agreeable
Posted - 2011.03.03 14:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ave Volta

Anyhoo, I guess the point is try making 1.7B per month mining with very little effort. Good luck with that...



I can think of 1 way to make 3b a month with no effort mining in highsec and 3x more in 0.0. In fact, it's quite popular.

Melchiades Seti
Posted - 2011.03.03 19:20:00 - [18]
 

I know it has been mentioned before, but I want to add my exclamation point to Tinu's post. It was as important as it was eloquently put. Nothing is more frustrating to learn to make something and see a slew of people selling at cost or worse. If I was really rich I would buy out all their stuff and sell it myself at a reasonable price. When they go overboard, I sometimes do.


 

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