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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:22:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 21/02/2011 11:25:14
EVE is a game that, at its heart, is about a world where PvP/risk is always part of the equation. It deliberately has no safe space, only safer space. It is a game where simply leaving your hangar can have disastrous consequences, where the motto has become “don’t undock what you can’t afford to lose”, and not “don’t PvP with what you can’t afford to lose”. Every interaction with another person in EVE has the potential for risk, from the potential for scams and competitive trading in the market/contracts, to social engineering and espionage in personal relationships and ship-to-ship combat in space.

The proposed new content in Incarna, however, does not follow this pattern, and therefore breaks with the core content of EVE, that which makes EVE what it is, and that which makes EVE great and unique as intellectual property. More to the point, the announced content for Incarna is uncomfortably close to Space Barbie; we can play dress up, we can go socialize at space bars, or play space poker, or get space haircuts. But none of this adds anything to EVE’s actual content. What’s more, an area of complete and total security runs counter to the very concepts that EVE is founded on; operating in complete safety is antithetical to EVE’s nature.

For these reasons, there should be a commitment to iterate on WiS. There must be some kind of actual content in stations that players can experience, and ideally something that is tied into the greater landscape of the game. Players should have content available to them in stations which will impact the larger game world, be it unique missions that can only be gained in seedy areas of stations, a chance to kill rivals away from heavily tanked, powerful ships, or other, yet unexplored possible areas of content.

How this content is implemented will be a separate issue and is being discussed in a separate thread.

All in all, Walking in Stations simply must have meaty content that players can sink their teeth into. Porting over some of the fluff from the Vampire game is all well and good, but tossing trinkets out to the EVE gaming populace is not going to cut it. If EVE is supposed to be ‘definitive scifi simulator’ than make it live up to the promise. If two pilots have been fighting tooth and nail out in space, where there is no such thing as safe space even where there’s a police force that’s so lethal that avoiding their retribution is an exploit, it’s unreasonable to think that those pilots would then play nice and enter Space Barbie mode.

Objections and counters.

1.Fiction doesn’t support it – Actually, it does. Violence and danger have been depicted as part of life on stations. Even if it had not, CCP is in charge of writing the fiction, and can rewrite it as it sees fit. Additionally, fiction does not inform gameplay. Before recently, there were no super weapons that can fit on a single Amarr battleship and wipe out a while enemy fleet. There still aren’t in game.

2. Stations are currently safe space and that shouldn’t change – No, personal hangars are currently safe space, stations do not actually exist except as models in space. Personal hangars can stay 100% safe space, as they are now.

3. You can’t download your skills to a medical clone without a pod – There’s no reason this has to be the case (see the fiction objection). Maybe the Jove release a new bit of technology that allows only those who are capable of being pod pilots to be fitted with a remote clone implant that allows medical cloning within a 50km radius. Maybe a wizard did it. Doesn’t matter.

4.People want stations to be completely safe – And many of the same people would like Empire space to be completely safe, too. Neither is a good idea and both violate the fundamental dynamics of EVE as a game and the concept of a fully functional scifi simulator; even without guns, an adversary can still snap a man’s neck.

Organic Peanut Butter
Caldari
Hysteria Nexus
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:31:00 - [2]
 

Dont we get bars, casinos and new types of labs in incarna? Not really combat but still is something todo, mind you baseball bat warfare sounds like fun too

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:38:00 - [3]
 

Playing bartender in Space Barbie isn't really anything to do that you can't do in Second Life. And we've already got EOH for poker.

Naga Tokiba
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:04:00 - [4]
 

tl;dr

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:13:00 - [5]
 

Clever trolling, and novel, too!

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.21 15:32:00 - [6]
 

How are you supposed to kill a capsuleer in the elevator when you get turned into a splatter on the floor in milliseconds, long before the spoon connects with the eye?

Also, getting your medical clone disposed off by CONCORD for breaking the Yulai treaty doesn't seem that smart to me... Even if you inconvenience another capsuleer by forcing them to restore from a backup. 'Use an alt' isn't really the answer, as there's no way an 'alt' would ever be willing to die (for real) for you.

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.02.21 16:45:00 - [7]
 

I suggest we also include Ganking in Forums.

Still fuzzy on the mechanics, but we should be able to directly gank people via the EVE online forums, maybe via isk bidding, or random numbers in each post. Or maybe killboard stats.

This would increase PvP making the forum experience much more enjoyable for everyone. Thank you.

Mimiru Minahiro
Posted - 2011.02.21 20:56:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Centri Sixx
I suggest we also include Ganking in Forums.

Still fuzzy on the mechanics, but we should be able to directly gank people via the EVE online forums, maybe via isk bidding, or random numbers in each post. Or maybe killboard stats.

This would increase PvP making the forum experience much more enjoyable for everyone. Thank you.


This has to be the most awesome thing I have read on the forums in at least 2 weeks.

I lol'd....in my pants....repeatedly

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.02.21 21:12:00 - [9]
 

Who cares about walk on stations in a SPACE SHIP GAME?

Barbie?

Kane?

Shaman?

Hunter?

Cookies?

Proffit? -no
Laughing

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.02.21 21:21:00 - [10]
 

There will be PvP in stations, of that I am quite sure.

However, it's probably not the kind you're asking for here. Expand your horizons, my good sir. Expand your horizons.

Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE

Posted - 2011.02.22 00:50:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Dlardrageth on 22/02/2011 00:51:14
Edited by: Dlardrageth on 22/02/2011 00:50:43
Definitely "Combat in Stations" is preferably to yet more forcibly introduced PvE content. As long as it stays optional. Small derail - alas, CCP doesn't have the most austere track record with "optional", do they? Rolling Eyes Incursions and that crappy useless extra chat channel in-game anyone? (Which cannot be closed while in the incursion constellation, ace game design there, CCP, kudos!!!)


So for it to work we'd prolly have to throw in a fully thought-out game mechanic for it, in the faint hope CCP takes like 10% of it, screws up half of the addded brain***** of their own and needs three patches to fix the patch that introduces it... Laughing Regarding current and recent trends of what we get in terms of "content", we'll prolly end up with some sort of wrestling ARENA for PvP, let's hope they don'T call it a BATTLEGROUND for the lulZ... Rolling Eyes

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.22 01:46:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Razin on 22/02/2011 02:00:43

I support the overall idea of making the WIS environment dangerous; however much has to be done to prevent the whole thing from degenerating into gangs of disposable characters running around spooning everyone.

Severe penalties would have to be introduced to make offing someone personally a last resort action (sudden death, ss loss, skill point loss, access loss, and maybe even some type of incarceration), as well as countermeasures to prevent a disposable noob alt from having much of a chance as opposed to someone who took the time to 'train' and/or equip whatever defensive/offensive hardware that may be available.

NPC stations would probably have the most severe penalties, maybe based on the system ss. Player owned outposts could have the capability for per-character settings controllable by the owners.

These are just thoughts. A lot of checks balances are required to make this work in a 'realistic' manner.

CommanderData211
Posted - 2011.02.22 10:24:00 - [13]
 

Finn, I enjoy your enthusiasm in this post as I have in many others, but I think you just need to slow down a tiny bit. You have to understand that this is completely new territory for CCP. This will be a staged launch that potentially in the future will be just as playable and important as spaceships. What is coming with the first iteration of Incarna is the most basic of the elements.

If you read the blogs about upcoming features, they are rife with statements about staged releases and having a new approach to the way they release content - namely, that they want to do it slowly and deliberately so that it doesn't blow up in their faces and make us hate them.

I think what CCP is trying to do is create a space in the game to connect players more solidly to their character. In so doing, they can appeal to, and retain more, of a demographic of gamers that they might not ordinarily lure in with the promise of soul crushing lag (I mean super-awesome-epic-mega fleet fights.)

For these reasons however, what CCP seems to be doing is tiptoeing around to figure out how this completely new game will fit in with the current one they are developing. Give them time.

However, I would be remiss if I didn't throw out an idea or two as to how to make Incarna content scalable to risk/reward.

How about Concord shows up in the stations as soldiers patrolling around? They have super crazy battle armor and they will engage a criminal with extreme prejudice. They could be supported by sentry towers and camera's in heavily populated areas of stations.

The security status of the systems the stations are in could also dictate the effectiveness of Concord troops. CCP uses this as a metric in space, why not in stations? It could also possibly be more granular in stations however. 1.0 stations would have troops that vaporize you immediately (lots of troops, lots of guns and such) but 0.4 stations could have only a couple of sentries and a sleeping mercenary guard in the security office.

Player owned stations could go one of two ways (or both) in my eyes. There could be NPC bought sentry guns or mercenaries, or it could be left to the players themselves to police the stations. It being that station access rights can be set by the sovereignty holding entity, I don't see much of a problem in that respect, but NPC 0.0 stations could be extremely interesting.

With all of that being said, I can only say that I believe it will happen one day, and not in an "arena" style of combat. We just need to give them time to fully realize and implement any ideas they have without alienating their player-base.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2011.02.22 12:28:00 - [14]
 

I only support being able to kill in elevators if i can do it with an injection of window cleaner injected into the buttocks. It leaves the brain last to die.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.22 12:52:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: CommanderData211
This will be a staged launch that potentially in the future will be just as playable and important as spaceships.


That's why I said they should iterate on it, not have it be combat-ready with the initial launch.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.23 02:22:00 - [16]
 

I support the idea of PvP in stations. Now granted, it doesn't have to be hand to hand combat or even "real live" combat. Imagine there was something like personal combat holodecks. Competitive paintball-like events could be staged in such "digital" spaces...where no capsuleers are physically hurt. Instead their "avatars" run obstacle courses while others try to shoot them down, or stuff like that. Such events could have associated costs or fines for losers so their wallets experience real loss. And spectators could bet, etc. There are any number of possibilities which could arise out of that one idea alone...an idea that immediately eliminates any concerns about "real death" in stations.

The point is, PvP needs to have a presence IN STATIONS for Incarna to feel at all like EVE.

Hopefully the Incarna presentations at FanFest in a few weeks will address some of these questions and wants. CSM has no idea what is planned; it doesn't seem likely we'll see anything in advance but I could be wrong.


Ba'lur Rorrot
Posted - 2011.02.23 03:14:00 - [17]
 

this PvP in the meat you speak of is being done, why make it a redundancy that competes with dust?

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.23 09:59:00 - [18]
 

It won't be. Dust does 't take place on stations, isn't for pod pilots, is on consoles and will be a different type of combat.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe

Posted - 2011.02.23 15:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Shandir on 23/02/2011 15:37:25
Edited by: Shandir on 23/02/2011 15:37:04
I think that long term, and preferably not as long term as it's taken to get Incarna in the first place - it should be possible to kill another pod pilot (effectively podding him) in a station.
I would say it would need to be quite difficult, costly, and only available to characters that are not throwaway alts.

Simply - I think that random station ganking would be dumb and detrimental to the game, but carefully planned and quite rare station assassinations (like the one recently described in Rixx Jarvix's blog) would be awesome.
Random thoughts below.


To cover the difficulty - it could require an expensive skill (rank 10+ - High security smuggling) to get a weapon of any kind into the capsuleer levels.
To cover the cost - a spot fine and an immediate security status revocation (-10.0). Oh, and naturally, station defenses will turn you into a messy pile in seconds, and you will not be welcome in a high security station until your security status is repaired.
To make it unavailable to throwaway alts - Either it should take a timeframe of months to set up in a given station, or it should be only available to characters with over a certain number of SP such as 1 year's worth (wouldn't make a lot of sense lore-wise, but I'm sure something can be made up) or perhaps better yet, both.

Also a form of unarmed combat with some kind of effect would be nice, brawling should be frowned upon but not harshly punished - such as a temporary ban from the station and a small fine. But it should also have some minor detrimental effect on the attacked party.

Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P.
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.02.23 16:41:00 - [20]
 


FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.23 22:00:00 - [21]
 

Sure, station ganking doesn't have to be easy. And sure, maybe there's a rank 10 (or 14, or whatever) skill that allows weapon smuggling. security hits, or being banned from certain corps' stations sounds fine (perhaps modifiable by another skill that allows infiltration, or what have you).

The specific mechanics would probably best be discussed in the linked thread, this one was for, generally, a discussion of the idea that stations should have PvP content, and that content should mirror the rest of EVE in that it shouldn't be totally avoidable.

Rafia Landras Audeles
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.23 23:02:00 - [22]
 

There is already a thread for this which you also made.

Not supported. Gangs of disposable alts would quickly make all Incarna content unplayeable. I doubt CCP's intent is to make desolated wastelands where only alts hang out ganking everyone "for lulz".


Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.02.23 23:18:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Playing bartender in Space Barbie isn't really anything to do that you can't do in Second Life. And we've already got EOH for poker.


But now you get EOH poker...




WITH HATS.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.24 05:34:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Aiwha

But now you get EOH poker...
WITH HATS.


This is true. If I can buy a vanity item of Molle's Frilly Pink Hat with a PLEX, I may support Space Barbie.

Originally by: Rafia Landras Audeles
There is already a thread for this which you also made.


Yes, it's almost as if the Chair of the CSM told me that I should make an 'elevator proposal' thread to discuss the general ideas without mechanics being the focus.
Go figure.

Originally by: Rafia Landras Audeles

Gangs of disposable alts would quickly make all Incarna content unplayeable.



It's somewhat unseemly for you to fabricate game mechanics for a feature that hasn't been accepted let alone implemented by CCP, and then claim that the game mechanics that you've invented are a reason not for CCP to accept let alone implement the feature.

Nott Hunter
Posted - 2011.02.24 10:14:00 - [25]
 


Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:46:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero

Originally by: Rafia Landras Audeles

Gangs of disposable alts would quickly make all Incarna content unplayeable.



It's somewhat unseemly for you to fabricate game mechanics for a feature that hasn't been accepted let alone implemented by CCP, and then claim that the game mechanics that you've invented are a reason not for CCP to accept let alone implement the feature.


Supported, but I think Rafia's comment is a valid concern. CCP will have to very careful how this is implemented.

That said, I agree that PvP in Stations is essential for continuity with the rest of the game.

Ambulate Safe! o7

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.24 12:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sahmul

Supported, but I think Rafia's comment is a valid concern. CCP will have to very careful how this is implemented.



Well, look at the comment in context:

Quote:
Not supported. Gangs of disposable alts would quickly make all Incarna content unplayeable. I doubt CCP's intent is to make desolated wastelands where only alts hang out ganking everyone "for lulz".


It wasn't a complaint that if CCP decided that disposable alts could easily gank prepared/'properly tanked' players it'd be bad, but that there shouldn't be PvP in stations because it would make stations a "desolated wasteland" since there would be disposable alts running around easily ganking everybody.

Not only is that not a necessary consequence of simply allowing PvP in stations, the fact that we already allow PvP in absolutely every single location in EVE other than someone's hangar, the idea that it would necessarily lead to a "wasteland" is fearmongering.

Sure, CCP should balance the new content properly. And mechanics should ensure that people aren't ever 100% safe anywhere but that it's not trivially easy to murder someone who's got a clue. Absolutely. But jumping straight to the claim that simply allowing for PvP in stations, just like it is everywhere else in EVE, will ruin the content?

Blargh.

Sahmul
The Grimreapers.
Posted - 2011.02.24 12:45:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Sahmul

Supported, but I think Rafia's comment is a valid concern. CCP will have to very careful how this is implemented.



Well, look at the comment in context:

Quote:
Not supported. Gangs of disposable alts would quickly make all Incarna content unplayeable. I doubt CCP's intent is to make desolated wastelands where only alts hang out ganking everyone "for lulz".


It wasn't a complaint that if CCP decided that disposable alts could easily gank prepared/'properly tanked' players it'd be bad, but that there shouldn't be PvP in stations because it would make stations a "desolated wasteland" since there would be disposable alts running around easily ganking everybody.

Not only is that not a necessary consequence of simply allowing PvP in stations, the fact that we already allow PvP in absolutely every single location in EVE other than someone's hangar, the idea that it would necessarily lead to a "wasteland" is fearmongering.

Sure, CCP should balance the new content properly. And mechanics should ensure that people aren't ever 100% safe anywhere but that it's not trivially easy to murder someone who's got a clue. Absolutely. But jumping straight to the claim that simply allowing for PvP in stations, just like it is everywhere else in EVE, will ruin the content?

Blargh.


Oh I agree mate, I support your proposition for a reason. All I'm saying is that the potential for abuse such as Rafia describes is there, if the systems aren't designed carefully. The fact that Rafia has indulged in a hysteria fuelled bout of reductio ad absurdum doesn't alter that potential.

Now is the time to try to foresee potential problems and think about possible methods of avoiding them (hence my pointing out 2 such in my post in your other thread). After release, given CCP's track record of rarely looking back, will be too late.

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.24 12:56:00 - [29]
 

Ah, then yah, cheers and I agree.
Of course it'd be easy to screw it up, and I'd want the CSM, especially, to provide a hell of a lot of feedback to make sure CCP got it right.

But if it's done properly, it has the potential to be an awesome addition to the game.

Whezker
Gallente
Next Stage Initiative
Trans-Stellar Industries
Posted - 2011.02.24 15:22:00 - [30]
 

Support.


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