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Drake Kadence
Posted - 2011.02.21 06:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Drake Kadence on 21/02/2011 08:14:21
Edited by: Drake Kadence on 21/02/2011 06:53:56
Exploration specific ships

One thing I think the EVE is missing is exploration specific Tech 2 ships. I think there is not only an easy way to fix this, but a way that would add more diversity to ships in general. Starting off, when I say exploration specific ship, I mean a ship that is designed with extra slots for Analyzer, Code breaker, Salvager, Probe launcher, and Cloak. This needs to be done in such a way that these ships, like Marauders cannot be exploited for pvp. Here are my thoughts:

Tech 2 Destroyer class explorer.

Designed for high sec and lower sp exploration. Would have enough mids to fit analyzer and codebreaker while being able to fit an effective tank, and 3 utility high slots for cloak, salvager, and probe launcher.

Prereqs:
Destroyers 5
Astrometrics 4
Hacking 4
Salvaging 3
Archeology 4

Bonuses:
+20% scan probe strength
-30% scan time
20% bonus to cycle of exploration modules (Analyzer, Code Breaker, Salvager)

Penalties:
+70% capacitor requirement to electronic warfare modules
Max locked targets = 2
-50% afterburner and micro warp drive speed bonus

Tech 2 Battlecruiser class explorer:

Designed for low sec and null sec exploration. Would have enough mids to fit analyzer and codebreaker while being able to fit an effective tank, and 3 utility high slots for cloak, salvager, and probe launcher.
Prereqs:
Battle cruisers 5
Astrometrics 5
Archeology 5
Hacking 5
Salvaging 5

Bonuses:
+25% bonus to scan probes
-30% scan time
20% bonus to exploration modules
Penalties:
+70% capacitor requirement to electronic warfare modules
Max locked targets = 3
-50% afterburner and micro warp drive speed bonus

I know this is long, but I feel it is a void in the eve hulls atm. We have a probing frig, t3 cruiser if you choose to use it, and nothing else. I think this would add a lot, while requiring minimal work.

ShogunChaosMK2
Amarr
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:04:00 - [2]
 

bump for a great idea

Brynhilda
Amarr
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:25:00 - [3]
 

We already have an exploration ship.

It's called the Pilgrim.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:26:00 - [4]
 

Do I get that right: You want T2 destroyers with 11 high slots and in case of the Cormorant hull vessel 6 medium slots?

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:27:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Headerman on 21/02/2011 07:27:52
Originally by: Lutz Major
Do I get that right: You want T2 destroyers with 11 high slots and in case of the Cormorant hull vessel 6 medium slots?



+3 utility high slots, not an extra 3 high slots.

And signed.

Drake Kadence
Posted - 2011.02.21 07:30:00 - [6]
 

Yes, no extra turret slots, only utility slots, and the extra slots would obviously not be the same for all but streamlined to provide basicaly the same damage output, tankability, and utility accross the board.

Dala min
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:12:00 - [7]
 

"I mean a ship that is designed with extra slots for Analyzer, Code breaker, Salvager, Probe launcher, and Cloak"

Great idea! I fully support it.

Or a cruiser/BC/BB class of ship with already built in and cannot be removed analyzer, code breaker, salvager and probe launcher / cloak could be optional

Dorian Tormak
M0N0LITH
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:19:00 - [8]
 

Great idea man.

Soul Nommer
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:26:00 - [9]
 

Why do you think CCP is going to make a ship to make content easier to do alone after forcing group content down our throats?

If you want to use those modules, you have to trade something for them.
Its a give and take game.

people need to stop trying to spoon feed people everything they'll ever want to use and let the pilots of EVE do what the game has been about and improvise.

If you want to explore, alone, and you are young. stick to high sec.
if you want to explore, alone, and have skills, get a T3
if you want to be more effective, get a group.

If you want to be good at everything, by yourself. play WOW.

Drake Kadence
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:28:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Drake Kadence on 21/02/2011 08:32:03
Originally by: Soul Nommer
Why do you think CCP is going to make a ship to make content easier to do alone after forcing group content down our throats?

If you want to use those modules, you have to trade something for them.
Its a give and take game.

people need to stop trying to spoon feed people everything they'll ever want to use and let the pilots of EVE do what the game has been about and improvise.

If you want to explore, alone, and you are young. stick to high sec.
if you want to explore, alone, and have skills, get a T3
if you want to be more effective, get a group.

If you want to be good at everything, by yourself. play WOW.


by your logic, marauders should not exist...


Think of it this way, even if you can find no good in game reason for these ships, they would get rid of 1000 "whats the best ship for ___sec exploration?"

Soul Nommer
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Drake Kadence
Edited by: Drake Kadence on 21/02/2011 08:32:03
Originally by: Soul Nommer
Why do you think CCP is going to make a ship to make content easier to do alone after forcing group content down our throats?

If you want to use those modules, you have to trade something for them.
Its a give and take game.

people need to stop trying to spoon feed people everything they'll ever want to use and let the pilots of EVE do what the game has been about and improvise.

If you want to explore, alone, and you are young. stick to high sec.
if you want to explore, alone, and have skills, get a T3
if you want to be more effective, get a group.

If you want to be good at everything, by yourself. play WOW.


by your logic, marauders should not exist...


Think of it this way, even if you can find no good in game reason for these ships, they would get rid of 1000 "whats the best ship for ___sec exploration?"


The marauders are alright. They are only a little unbalanced in the people vs. effectiveness area. since salvaging in a separate ships is still far more effective.
In fact im sure an exploration T3 would be about as effective as a marauder for a mission.

And yes, getting rid of those threads is a problem. People need to be made to
have to try and figure stuff out on their own.

Experimentation, learning, trial and error.
THOSE are the solo activities that make eve awesome.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Drake Kadence
Yes, no extra turret slots, only utility slots, and the extra slots would obviously not be the same for all but streamlined to provide basicaly the same damage output, tankability, and utility accross the board.
I know, that your intention was not to have 11 gun slots but why would you want to change the game so fundamentally? Why not give a damage bonus just like the Marauder?


I still think it's a bad idea. If you want to have a Enterprise or Voyager you have to go to Star Trek Online. In EVE, each ship has mostly one single role and is not multi-purpose. The game forces you to MMO. And in my opinion it's a good thing.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.21 09:57:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Lutz Major
Originally by: Drake Kadence
Yes, no extra turret slots, only utility slots, and the extra slots would obviously not be the same for all but streamlined to provide basicaly the same damage output, tankability, and utility accross the board.
I know, that your intention was not to have 11 gun slots but why would you want to change the game so fundamentally? Why not give a damage bonus just like the Marauder?


I still think it's a bad idea. If you want to have a Enterprise or Voyager you have to go to Star Trek Online. In EVE, each ship has mostly one single role and is not multi-purpose. The game forces you to MMO. And in my opinion it's a good thing.



I think the OPs aim was to create a 'cut down' version of a T3, but keep the exploration ability at the fore, backed up by the ability to be an effective explorer to survive

Julien Brellier
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:26:00 - [14]
 

Just use a Recon ship.

Rolling Eyes

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:31:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Julien Brellier
Just use a Recon ship.

Rolling Eyes


Why use a drake when you can use a caracal?

Kentares Kodiak
Posted - 2011.02.21 11:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lutz Major

In EVE, each ship has mostly one single role and is not multi-purpose.



Really!? Then CCP needs to nerf a couple of ships specially the Tengu.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.02.21 12:29:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kentares Kodiak
Originally by: Lutz Major

In EVE, each ship has mostly one single role and is not multi-purpose.



Really!? Then CCP needs to nerf a couple of ships specially the Tengu.
That's why I said mostly. And what purpose should a modular design have, if not to change a ship layout fundamentally? For this T3 ships are very versatile, but they cannot 'be' all at once. You have to decide whether you want max fire power or use the covert reconfiguration.

Commander IceQ
Caldari
Spit and Ductape Maintenance
Trade Wind Commodities
Posted - 2011.02.21 13:10:00 - [18]
 

[Tengu, Explorer II]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Analyzer II
Codebreaker II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Salvager II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

I took one of my fits and added the modules you suggested. DPS is bit low, tank is ok. If they where to bring out the ship(s) you suggested, the above fit would still, probably, be better.

(before anyone starts taking me apart because of the fit, it is an eft warrior fit. I would not use it, but it it proves that the T3 can do all of the things the OP wants.)

I have an alt in a cov ops (with an Analyzer & a Codebreaker) scan down the site, I fly in with my Nighthawk, kill stuff, and if it is a hack or archaeology site she just does it. if you don't have an alt then swap ships. no need for an extra one IMO.

NB: Jack of all trades, master of none.

Scorpionidae
Posted - 2011.02.21 14:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Brynhilda
We already have an exploration ship.

It's called the Pilgrim.


Just wondering what dose that fit look like?

Scorpionidae Very Happy

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2011.02.21 14:24:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Brynhilda
We already have an exploration ship.

It's called the Tengu.


fypfy

Drake Kadence
Posted - 2011.02.21 15:23:00 - [21]
 

To respond to some of these:

"use a recon"- gl with that in null sec

as far as keeping the game mmo, 99% of exploration is solo, you plus you, and sometimes 1 or 2 more you's.

A damage bonus much like the marauder would work just as well.

Now I don't believe this ship should be able to solo the maze, but I do feel it is a profession that would greatly benifit from its own ship. We have a ship designed for salvage, yet an explorer must choose what to be able to do.

The tengu fit rocks somewhere in the neighborhood of a whoping 200dps, many null sec mag sites will take you an hour with that forget about a 6/10.

Voith
Posted - 2011.02.21 17:39:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Drake Kadence
Edited by: Drake Kadence on 21/02/2011 08:14:21
Edited by: Drake Kadence on 21/02/2011 06:53:56
Exploration specific ships

One thing I think the EVE is missing is exploration specific Tech 2 ships. I think there is not only an easy way to fix this, but a way that would add more diversity to ships in general. Starting off, when I say exploration specific ship, I mean a ship that is designed with extra slots for Analyzer, Code breaker, Salvager, Probe launcher, and Cloak. This needs to be done in such a way that these ships, like Marauders cannot be exploited for pvp. Here are my thoughts:

Tech 2 Destroyer class explorer.

Designed for high sec and lower sp exploration. Would have enough mids to fit analyzer and codebreaker while being able to fit an effective tank, and 3 utility high slots for cloak, salvager, and probe launcher.

Prereqs:
Destroyers 5
Astrometrics 4
Hacking 4
Salvaging 3
Archeology 4

Bonuses:
+20% scan probe strength
-30% scan time
20% bonus to cycle of exploration modules (Analyzer, Code Breaker, Salvager)

Penalties:
+70% capacitor requirement to electronic warfare modules
Max locked targets = 2
-50% afterburner and micro warp drive speed bonus

Tech 2 Battlecruiser class explorer:

Designed for low sec and null sec exploration. Would have enough mids to fit analyzer and codebreaker while being able to fit an effective tank, and 3 utility high slots for cloak, salvager, and probe launcher.
Prereqs:
Battle cruisers 5
Astrometrics 5
Archeology 5
Hacking 5
Salvaging 5

Bonuses:
+25% bonus to scan probes
-30% scan time
20% bonus to exploration modules
Penalties:
+70% capacitor requirement to electronic warfare modules
Max locked targets = 3
-50% afterburner and micro warp drive speed bonus

I know this is long, but I feel it is a void in the eve hulls atm. We have a probing frig, t3 cruiser if you choose to use it, and nothing else. I think this would add a lot, while requiring minimal work.



Instead of designing new ship classes and crippling them to fit 3 mods, why not combine the three mods into one?

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.22 06:20:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Voith
Instead of designing new ship classes and crippling them to fit 3 mods, why not combine the three mods into one?


Have one module that can hack and scan, and fittable to these ships only? Bit like a T3 subsystem.... nice :)

And in regards to the Tengu, sure they make great explorers, the Loki does it better btw. Both cost over 600 mil though.

The Tengu can: PVP, PVE, explore, scout etc. Eve has ships for PVP, has ships for PVE. Has ships for scouting etc.... but not much for exploring.

Isaac Apylon
Lobster Adoption Agency
Posted - 2011.02.22 09:09:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Headerman
And in regards to the Tengu, sure they make great explorers, the Loki does it better btw. Both cost over 600 mil though.


Would you mind sharing your Loki fit for that? I've been waffling over whether to get a Tengu or a Loki for my exploration-mobile, since they both allow selectable damage types and shield tanking. However, I can't seem to find a fit for the Loki that works better than a Tengu, since arties are a tad low on the dps and autocannons have an incredibly short range. HM Tengu seems to wipe the floor with the Loki just on the basis of range.

I'd really appreciate any suggestions you have in this regard.

Tensa
Posted - 2011.02.22 21:48:00 - [25]
 

This is not a bad idea. I think you're putting you're looking in the wrong direction, though. I'll explain.

We do not need a new ship with these capabilities. We already have ships that could serve this role with just a slight addition.

T3 Strategic Cruisers.

Currently for the Tengu and Proteus, there's a practically worthless electronic subsystem called the CPU efficiency gate. The only reason I own one is for the sake of completion...but I can never imagine me actually using it because it's 5% bonus to CPU level is hardly ever needed.

Changing this subsystem to give bonus to salvaging, archaeology, and codebreaker would make it a definite addition to my subsystem arsenal.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.22 22:02:00 - [26]
 

You still have the huge cost of getting a T3 though, and then fitting it out right. Whats more they can be gimped quite a bit if loading on an expanded launcher, a code breaker and an analyser.

I think what the OP is suggesting is a Dedicated explorer. Like a dedicated command ship, a dedicated heavy interdictor etc.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.02.22 22:04:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Drake Kadence

-50% afterburner and micro warp drive speed bonus


way to ruin the exploration ship idea completely
How are you supposed to pass gatecamps with this? Or reach next acceleration gates which are 50+ km away in some plexes?

MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
Posted - 2011.02.23 00:38:00 - [28]
 

Covertops arguably are the "science vessel" of EVE already - they have the slots to do everything your asking them to do, they warp cloaked, and they have the ultra-rare scanning strength bonus. T3 ships are your other option, and they can add bubble immunity on top of ~decent~ (~decent~ varies by T3 model) damage. If you want a dedicated site runner, your going to have to compromise between those two points. The stats you have listed, frankly, is a joke. 25% can strength is half the bonus of a covertops, which makes it rather useless for probing down sites quickly by itself. Probe scan duration is no longer a meaningful stat, as you spend far more time adjusting and moving the position of probes than actually running a scan analysis. This useless prober is then crippled with your velocity penalty, which guarantees it can't mwd/cloak pulse through camps or burn between cans in an exploration site. The use of a battle-cruiser hull to not do damage is particularly confusing - what on earth are you going to use all those slots on? Your just a fatter, slower, less efficient version of your destroyer model.


So in order to build a proper science hull, you have to do the following:
warp cloaked
have a scan strength bonus
have a decent tank
have a bonus to profession site content
Have decent cargo space! This is very important!


At that point, your easily excluding destroyers (no tank), cruisers (no cargo space), and battle-cruisers (too fat). Much like the Noctis, the most natural fit is to build a singular dedicated hull, likely around a new skill line for SoE, in the industrial class. Industrials have a wide range of mobility stats, slot counts, odd bonuses, and already have the precdent of warping cloaked, making them the natural selection.

So you would be looking at something like this:


Noesis - Sisters of Eve Industrial Ship
Required Skills: Astrometrics V, Science V

SoE Industrial skill bonus: 10% bonus to probe strength per level, -5% duration to modules requiring Hacking, Archeology, or Salvaging.
Role Bonus:
-100% CPU usage of cloaking devices
+100% bonus to tractor beam velocity and range

4/7/2 Slot layout
1.2k M^3 base cargo capacity
~320 Base Grid, ~300 Base CPU
~3500 Base Shield, ~1500 Base Armor, ~2000 Base Hull
3 Turret Hardpoints, 3 Missile Hardpoints
25mbits Bandwidth, 50m^3 drone storage
Agility and Mass as Blockade Runners
400m Signature


Such a hull basically steals the Covertops + Emergent Locus Amplifier subystems from T3, giving them cloaked warping and marauder-style tractor beams. They can salvage efficiently like the noctis, but they lack the highslots or extreme range to compete as a dedicated salvager. The Noesis would be able to probe down and analyze/hack sites by itself, and have enough medslots left over for a decent Shield Tank. It has much better firepower than a covertops, but would still fall far short compared to a ship like the Tengu. It would posses the cargospace to grab all the loot in a site without needing to make multiple runs, but not nearly so much cargo-room as to compete with a dedicated blockade runner for that purpose. Its high signature weakens it vs 0.0 site rats.

For newer players, the flexibility in weapon systems and tanking slots would make it an easy ship to skill into for all-in-one highsec exploration, and experienced players could easily use it for an alt to probe/hack sites while completing with a dedicated combat ship. Even with one or two LSEs, it would have sufficient tank to not get one-volleyed by new spawns, unlike covertops.

Anyways, a lot of ideas have been put forth like this before, and CCP probably wont ever implement one. It took them years and years to introduce the Noctis, likely out of a desire to see the Primae's graphic assets used more than any real :need: for it compared to Destroyer/BC usage. You'll see a dedicated science vessel when you see the promised Apocrypha Iterations: T3 balancing and 5th subsystems (re: never).

Drake Kadence
Posted - 2011.02.23 02:44:00 - [29]
 

All the responses have been great and a lot of good ideas are being spread. I do want to point out, however that an all in one exploration ship is just one aspect of how this could help the community as a hole.

The ships:
While I can understand the idea that this should be an industrial ship, many sites including radar and mag contain rats. In null sec, it is often too much dps for a recon. This usually leaves hac's and bigger. Beyond this, destroyers are so limited and could be a great stepping stone for a brand new player. By the same token, bc's while versatile in their t1 versions are limited to 2 t1 versions and 1 t2 hull.
There is no need for new hulls, just like all t2's an upgraded specific focused version of a t1 hull. For destroyers, this would give a brand new player a cheap and realativly low costing sp wise ship to train for. In the training of this t2 destroyer, they will have accomplished many fundamental skills for dictors, putting them on the road to a fairly useful pvp ship. the same holds true for bc, a player under a year old can get into a t2 exploration bc, and have some fundamental skills done for command ships.
It is true that you cannot have an all in one ship, sacrifices must be made, and this is a part of the game world. The same is true here. For the explorer looking to venture into lowsec or non blue null sec, cloak and interdiction nullifiers are often a must. With T3ís this exists. You will have to choose between safety or speed so to speak.
Game play:
It is true that eve is not a solo game in many respects. I should say itís not designed to be a solo game. This is often not the case. I have seen 1 man on 8 accounts holding his own roaming gang or gate camp. Often mission runners, cap pilots, traders, and explorers use an alt to help carry the load of the task ahead. This does nothing to add to the game. In fact, all immersion is gone imho when you have to focus on multiple accounts to accomplish a goal. Nothing feels more like flying your very own space ship in the far reaches of a deadly solar system like alt tabbing.
New players:
Many people familiar with exploration have heard of the exploration almanac (if you havenít Google it itís worth the read). This was the idea behind letting my son play eve. He had multiple subscriptions to things like xbox live, and I am not willing to pay another sub. Eve is a rare game that lets you pay your sub within game currency. Unfortunately, for a new player, there is no good way to make 350ish mil isk in 14-21 days. This could help to rectify that.

grethanelongstrider
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:58:00 - [30]
 

currently i am running a proteus as my exploration ship with the idea that i can handle everythign that i find almost. currently i am running c1-c3 wormholes with it but i have to say a dedicated exploration ship has been my dream forever and a half. even if it was a ORE tech III ship that would be great because it is interesting balancing defence with utility and a insainly small cargo hold(half my cargo hold is to holding ammo 4 rail guns with maxed out rapid fire and bonus/implants means i am reloading every 60-120 secs)and trynig to balance the build to have enough high slots to fit everything and still have a tank yes please give us a ORE class exploration vessel and make it cheaper plzzzz


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