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Hanneshannes
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:56:00 - [1]
 


Hi,
I was planning to get myself a Golem.

I have been flying CNR, NavyPoc, Mare, Paladin, Dominix, so I think I am fairly capable of doing it.

There is one thing I am wondering though: I thought up a nice fitting that I like, that gives me around 70km range on Javelin Torps and all (my fit does not include an Afterburner).

Before going to Jita to buy everything, I checked how much the Javelins cost and it seems to me, that they are quite expensive. 50m+ for 20k of them.

So how many missiles does one use on an average mission, how do you cope with the fairly huge cost of keeping it supplied with ammo?

I remember having around 300k missiles stockpiled with the CNR (those were cruise missiles) and I actually needed that many in a few months.

Is it better to go with LP bought faction torps and an Afterburner? Can someone post a financial breakdown, including cost of ammo for the ship?

Thanks in advance.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:32:00 - [2]
 

On a macharial, it's worth while using faction ammo despite the fact that it has 7 turrets, with a ROF of about 3 seconds. Faction ammo costs more than t2 ammo, though I think torps might cost more than large proj rounds.

On a golem with 4 launchers with a ~7 second rate of fire, I think you'll be fine.

A few points though:

1)You don't want to shoot much outside of 40km anyway, the whole advantage of flying a marauder stems from being able to salvage/loot as you go

2)You're going to make ~50mil an hour running lvl 4s, who cares if you spend that on a month's worth of missiles?

3)You should probably try to squeeze an AB on there, it will make life easier.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:43:00 - [3]
 

Noctis makes golem irrelevant. Don't believe me? Welp do some timed runs with a cnr that bookmarks the rooms and then switches out to a noctis to go back and salvage vs a torp golem that salvages as it goes. Make sure to put a fluffy pillow under your chin though.Smile

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:15:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Cambarus on 19/02/2011 06:15:32
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Noctis makes golem irrelevant. Don't believe me? Welp do some timed runs with a cnr that bookmarks the rooms and then switches out to a noctis to go back and salvage vs a torp golem that salvages as it goes. Make sure to put a fluffy pillow under your chin though.Smile
I don't believe you. Torp golem ODs a cruise CNR, and a torp CNR is extremely hard pressed to apply its damage without the TP bonus.

EDIT: That doesn't even take into account the time spent warping, docking, changing ships etc.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:23:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
I don't believe you.
ok. ugh

Hanneshannes
Posted - 2011.02.19 12:19:00 - [6]
 

Sigh =(

Why do people always have to have different opinions on something? I was hoping to open this thread and either get told to not fly a Golem or to fly one.

I have read many stories about the Golem being the king/god/most awesome thing for missions, simply because they kill stuff a lot faster than anything else. Looking at the fittings I have now, my Golem actually outdamages my CNR by quite a lot and that's not even using 4 BCS like some people recommended.

On the other hand, you said that the Golem's advantage lies in being able to salvage as it goes... From my experience, I don't think I will be salvaging every single wreck in a Golem before I get to the next gate/clear the room and salvage isn't valuable enough to worry sticking around for.

Can anyone tell me how fast a Golem kills certain stuff?

What I mean is this:

After some time you just know how often you have to fire at an NPC for it to die, so you deactivate your launchers and launch a volley at a new NPC, before the missiles even arrived at the first one and end up killing both, just like you planned.

I'm looking at 2 volleys at most from my CNR to kill a Cruiser or Battlecruiser. Smaller things are usually taken care of by my drones and I doubt I will change that when I am launching torpedoes around.
The battleships are different though... It takes 5-6 volleys to kill a low bounty one, like Merc Overlords, Pith Eradicators or Corpus Archon for example.
I know from experience (been using a CNR with siege launchers to do AE or Damsel In Distress) that, when using torpedoes, that amount is roughly cut in half and that was without using any TPs.

The most I ever need for any BS is 14-15 volleys (these are the really big ones, like the named ones in Venegeance), so I am assuming that I will be looking at 7-8 volleys from a Golem, which is 28-32 missiles, ideally... Let's throw in 4-5 more because of defenders, that makes it 33-37 missiles per every big BS (1m bounty and up).

So it costs, at most, 80-100k ISK to kill a valuable BS, which, in turn, doesn't sound too bad.

Can anyone who has experience confirm wether or not my math is right/accurate?

Thanks in advance.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2011.02.19 12:48:00 - [7]
 

I don't fly a Golem yet, it'll be another 6 weeks or so before I am able to. However, I was watching a Youtube video a couple of days ago of a guy running AE in a torp Golem with a pair of painters. He was killing the Angel battleships in 4 volleys. AE has 29 battleship in it if you don't do the bonus room (generally not recommended in a torp Golem I believe); @ 4 volleys per battleship and 4 torps per volley that's 464 torps. Add in more for the battlecruisers and I'd imagine around 600.

However, if you think Javelin's are expensive price out the Caldari Navy torps. I still think they're worth using.

Arte
The Darkness Within
Posted - 2011.02.19 12:52:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Arte on 19/02/2011 13:06:45
You can salvage or not, your choice. You can also salvage what's in range with a golem and still come back in a noctis to get everything else if you wanted.
With this in mind - the whole "it's better to come back in a noctis later with another ship" argument is irrelevant as it applies to all ships.

The only issue is the application of DPS.

Your estimates for how much it costs per volley are dependant on your skills and the missions themselves. It doesn't take more than 4-5 volleys to kill a BS with Torps when using the Golem - the TP Bonus helps considerably on the Battlecruisers/cruisers and drones take out the frigs.

If range is a factor in a mission (first part of WC for instance) then clearly Torps aren't going to be the optimal choice and your need for T2 is going to increase, increasing cost for the mission ammo. Likewise if there are more frigs in a mission than there are BS (Buzzkill for instance) then using torps is going to put you at a disadvantage. Consider your skills and the mission and go with your own preference.

Personally, I use a Golem, mostly with cruise as I prefer not to have to switch out fittings as I go. I'm pretty sure my setup isn't optimal for isk making but I want to have 'fun' in this game, not give myself a headache. I haven't found a mission yet that causes me dramas.
I obsessively salvage all wrecks using the Golem's abilities and coming back in a Noctis if necessary and use my LP for faction ammo, buying T2 ammo if I feel like it. I've never considered ammo cost to be a big factor in my ship choice.

I may buy a mach to do the missions one day but only when I have the skills to do it justice (large Proj being the issue there!)

Cyrus Mierre
The Forsaken Legion
Posted - 2011.02.19 13:00:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Hanneshannes
SNIP


I have flown the CNR, Golem (and Domi, Vargur too) in missions, and here are the key points I picked up:

1) The difference between Marauders and everything else:

Originally by: Hanneshannes
From my experience, I don't think I will be salvaging every single wreck in a Golem before I get to the next gate/clear the room


This is absolutely the right way to do it. Imagine two scenarios: a CNR completes a mission in X time, then returns in a noctis and spends Y time salvaging. A marauder, however, only takes X time to complete the mission, and during that same period of time also grabs the most valuable wrecks leaving the smalls behind. Time Y is saved, and the loss of the small wrecks is saved by starting another mission during time Y.

2) The difference between the CNR and Golem:

I flew a golem for a while before upgrading to a Vargur, and the reason for the change was for two reasons: Flight time of missiles and cycle time of target painters.

For the increased damage I found that the delayed damage due to missile flight time was not worth it. This difference is even more exaggerated by the golem with its missiles flying at less than half the speed of the CNR's cruises. I found that the golem had even more problems switching between targets than the CNR, and this problem was only made worse by:

Target painters. With a ten second cycle time, these things almost dictate the minimum time before you can switch to the next target. Sometimes you can launch the missiles and reactivate the TPS on after their cycle ends whilst the missiles are in flight, but in general I found it to be far too much hastle for the gain in DPS. In fact, the gain in DPS against the large ships I found was not enough to counterbalance the fact that other ships killed the sub-BS rats faster (see later).

The other big advantage is the tank bonus of the Golem. This in-build Shield Boost Amplifier allows you to free up mids for more TPs, or allows you to fit a lower-sized shield booster (saving cap and/or money).

3) The Vargur.

I know that your question was asking about the Golem/CNR only, but if nothing else, take this as an example of the importance of DPS against sub-BS targets.

The instant damage, high tracking, long range and short cycle time on guns makes the Vargur easily the fastest (and also the most user-friendly) ship that I have ever flown in PvE. With two tracking computers (note: my guns' cycle time isn't hindered by the cycle time of TCs in the same way as target painters) and two tracking enhancers I can one-shot a frigate every gun cycle (3s) anywhere from 10km to 93km (max lock range). Cruisers and BCs fall within a few volleys, and whilst BSs might take more time in the Varg than the Golem to kill, the gain in speed killing everything below that size far outwieghs it.

4) The Tengu

On the topic of 'higher DPS against sub-BS targets', you might want to consider the tengu. I have never flown one myself, but I would hazard a guess that the heavy missiles could give the torps a run for their money.

tl;dr

The Golem has enough DPS greater than the CNR to outweigh the Golem's dependance on TPs and the low missile speed, but the higher DPS of the Golem over the Vargur is not enough to beat the Varg's sub-BS killing speed. Also you may want to consider a tengu.

Cyrus

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2011.02.19 16:33:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Cyrus Mierre
4) The Tengu

On the topic of 'higher DPS against sub-BS targets', you might want to consider the tengu. I have never flown one myself, but I would hazard a guess that the heavy missiles could give the torps a run for their money.

tl;dr

The Golem has enough DPS greater than the CNR to outweigh the Golem's dependance on TPs and the low missile speed, but the higher DPS of the Golem over the Vargur is not enough to beat the Varg's sub-BS killing speed. Also you may want to consider a tengu.

Cyrus


I can talk about this one, as I run both a cruise CNR and a Tengu for missions at various times when I need the money. With Scourge Fury missiles, I get just over 700 dps of kinetic damage anywhere within 101 km or so. I lose 25% if I use EM missiles. There are no drones, so missile damage is it. Angel Extravaganza takes me 38 minutes in a Tengu to complete the mission, 55 minutes to finish the mission and do the bonus room. Worlds Collide takes me about 23 minutes to run, but I only do one side (kill the Angel battleships in the initial room, clear most of the second and the final).

Even with Fury missiles, two rigor rigs and one painter make it effective against small ships. I can one-shot the merc wingmen in Damsel using Scourge Fury missiles. Just don't try that against elite Angel frigates. It's especially nice on Gurista missions; I fit two ECCM which boosts my sensor strength to over 115, and rarely get jammed as a result.

However, I do plan on getting a Golem for efficiency, and later getting a Vargur as well.

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.02.19 16:34:00 - [11]
 

Very true. I think there needs to be a reduction on the penalties that missiles possess. Exp radius and exp velocity need to be reduced drastically. The poor dps already makes them not very worth it.
Save damage projection, Missiles have to much penalties to worry about especially torps.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.19 17:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Hanneshannes

gives me around 70km range on Javelin Torps


61km max effective range.

Quote:
So how many missiles does one use on an average mission, how do you cope with the fairly huge cost of keeping it supplied with ammo?


Some old numbers I have laying around:
AE used 116 to 132 javelins and 476 to 536 CN torps. Guristas Extravaganza used 150-192 javelin and 492 to 556 CN torps. If you load 200 javelins and 600 CN torps, you'll be fine.

Way back when, ammo costs per mission varied from 0% to 2.5%, but salvage was worth more back then.


I would definitely use faction torps.


stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.19 17:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Noctis makes golem irrelevant. Don't believe me? Welp do some timed runs with a cnr that bookmarks the rooms and then switches out to a noctis to go back and salvage vs a torp golem that salvages as it goes. Make sure to put a fluffy pillow under your chin though.Smile


Sigh. A marauder gets bounties, LP, and most of the BS loot and BS salvage. The Noctis gets no bounties, no LP, all the loot and salvage from the smaller ships.

Do you really think the loot and salvage from a few BS wrecks and all the BC, cruisers and frigates is going to earn a Noctis more isk/hour than the bounties and LP from running another mission?


Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2011.02.20 01:08:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Zhim'Fufu
Noctis makes golem irrelevant. Don't believe me? Welp do some timed runs with a cnr that bookmarks the rooms and then switches out to a noctis to go back and salvage vs a torp golem that salvages as it goes. Make sure to put a fluffy pillow under your chin though.Smile


Sigh. A marauder gets bounties, LP, and most of the BS loot and BS salvage. The Noctis gets no bounties, no LP, all the loot and salvage from the smaller ships.

Do you really think the loot and salvage from a few BS wrecks and all the BC, cruisers and frigates is going to earn a Noctis more isk/hour than the bounties and LP from running another mission?




Saying the noctis doesn't get lp or bounties is silly, and doesn't really help your argument. You also can't compare looting in a noctis to doing another mission. Even with the worst noctis skills and the best mission skills, you're still going to salvage a mission faster than you could complete one.

Its a few extra minutes for a lot more money.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.20 02:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde

Saying the noctis doesn't get lp or bounties is silly, and doesn't really help your argument. You also can't compare looting in a noctis to doing another mission. Even with the worst noctis skills and the best mission skills, you're still going to salvage a mission faster than you could complete one.


Sigh^2. Time is money, friend.


Quote:
Its a few extra minutes for a lot more money.


No. It's a few extra minutes that makes less money per unit of time than running another mission in a marauder. Run the numbers.


Sergeant Failfit
Posted - 2011.02.20 03:23:00 - [16]
 

I am able to use CNR, Golem and Tengu as well as some other ships like Machariel, Paladin, Nightmare.

In my experience nothing (and I mean: nothing!) matches a Torp Golems applied DPS in game in range of 0-35 km when fighting NPC BS. While this may not always be the most important thing, chances are good one could use this for excellent killspeed and mission completion times. I used a clone with all +5% implants for missiles (CM damage, HML damage, RoF, and both explo-bonus implants) which is NOT bonusing the Golems torps like Tengus HML or CNRs CM - still they are both no match for a well flown Golem in missions with fitting ranges.

Btw, the most salvoes I regularly need for a mission BS are 4 vs Rachen Mysuna (Vengeance Guri), 2 painters on him.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2011.02.20 10:41:00 - [17]
 

A friend of mine flies a Torp Golem regularly. From what I've seen of it he's killing BCs in a single volley and most BS in three (some go down in two, higher bounty ones take four).
I know he carries Javelins but he also has an AB fitted.
I also know that he carries no more than 800 torps of an appropriate type per mission (or did last time I asked him about it) and generally brings a bunch of those home with him.
As the Javs would only get used on ships orbitting outside 40oddkm I'd guess you'd average five or six ships of that type in an average mission (more in Serp and Gurista missions, less in Angel) so you're probably looking at about 80-96 Jav torps used per mission, on average meaning that your 50mil would last 208 missions and kill upwards of about 416mil worth of bounty.

trevormax
Posted - 2011.02.20 11:28:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: trevormax on 20/02/2011 11:28:26
This is greengimps golem loadout. if you look near the top of the page, you can see he has posted a number of videos showing him missioning in his golem.


Linkage

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.02.21 03:21:00 - [19]
 

I usually bring 500 faction, 500 javelin, and ~250 rage rounds. most of the time I'm shooting faction missiles, make npcs go boom good Twisted Evil

the rage are mostly for killing structures.

golem uses way less ammo than the cnr. most bs are 2 or 3 volleyed, bc/cruiser are usually 1 volley Twisted Evil

I don't think I ever took the golem on a vengeance, everything is just too long range in that last room, and the guristas loot/salvage is pretty meh.

and I think Kirfka's isk/hr thread counted ammo.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.21 05:57:00 - [20]
 

I am taking notes here, but i would like to point out that for best ISK income, dual boxing 0.0 anoms in a carrier and a Maelstrom gives you a lot of isk quickly.

But back on topic, Only things i have heard of the Golem are all good. You could do a lot worse :)

Penjual Sayur
Posted - 2011.02.21 08:49:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Hanneshannes


There is one thing I am wondering though: I thought up a nice fitting that I like, that gives me around 70km range on Javelin Torps and all (my fit does not include an Afterburner).

Before going to Jita to buy everything, I checked how much the Javelins cost and it seems to me, that they are quite expensive. 50m+ for 20k of them.

So how many missiles does one use on an average mission, how do you cope with the fairly huge cost of keeping it supplied with ammo?



With your setup of 70km with javelins, your normal/faction torps should go around 50km max. You'll be using normal torps a lot more than javelins. And seeing you have extensive experience on running L4s, you should know which rats orbit at which range.

Suffice to say it's roughly around 20% of rats linger at ranges more than 50km (those sanshas and guristas). For mission like WC you want to use your nightmare or NApoc instead of the golem.

Answering your question, 20k ammo is around 2-3months of supplies for average usage (2-4hours per day), using only about 100 per mission on average (some mish doesnt need javelins, eg damsel). I tend to use T1 ammo a lot more than using faction ammo.

Hanneshannes
Posted - 2011.02.22 19:08:00 - [22]
 

I would like to thank everyone for their replies so far.

One more thing that came up while reading/watching/thinking about the Golem is, what NPCs do you preferably engage in one? Thus far it looks like Angels.



 

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