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Marco P
Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2011.02.18 14:50:00 - [1]
 

OK, first I am a big believer in the rock/paper/scissors/sandbox nature of Eve and there is no such thing as "Best Ship" etc.

However, a corp mate lent me his logi the other day during a fleet op and I decided that logis are much more interesting on POS bashes - mostly because you have to actually do something. So given the following constraints, which logi would you recommend and ideally with what fit?

- Assume all skills equal.
- Flexibility is a good thing (armor and shield)
- Cap stability a good thing
- Survivability, primarily EHP and speed (I found burning out of bubbles at 240 m/s dissatisfying)


Thanks

Marco's mate Wink

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.02.18 14:59:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Marco P
OK, first I am a big believer in the rock/paper/scissors/sandbox nature of Eve and there is no such thing as "Best Ship" etc.

However, a corp mate lent me his logi the other day during a fleet op and I decided that logis are much more interesting on POS bashes - mostly because you have to actually do something. So given the following constraints, which logi would you recommend and ideally with what fit?

- Assume all skills equal.
- Flexibility is a good thing (armor and shield)
- Cap stability a good thing
- Survivability, primarily EHP and speed (I found burning out of bubbles at 240 m/s dissatisfying)


Thanks

Marco's mate Wink


Speed and Shields = Scimitar
Armor = Guardian
Shield PvE = Basilisk
Sell and buy something else = Oneiros

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.02.18 15:04:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Mithrasith on 18/02/2011 15:05:48
Edited by: Mithrasith on 18/02/2011 15:05:05
This question is a little difficult to answer, because each Logi has its own set of scario's that its best at. For my part Ill comment on the Guardian, Scimitar and Basi as those are the one's I have relative experience with.

First you have to break it down into armor and shield.

Armor:

-Generally preferred: Guardian
Guardian
Strengths: Nice tank, small sig radius, can create CAP 'out of thin air' IF you have a partner Guardian
-Ideally to be used in pairs of two
-Can fit 3-4 Large reppers in the highs, plus 2 large cap transfer units
-Great range on reppers and cap transfer arrays
-Can be 'solo' capable for various tasks, like 10/10 plexes, but its functionality is reduced since it can fit far more mods that use greater cap than it can regenerate
Cons
-For best use, it requires two guardians
-Reliant on second guardian pilot not to be a d*uche when its fit for use with another Guardian Pilot

Shield:

Generally preferred: for tougher areas (like C5's and C6's) generally the Baslisk is preferred if there is another Baslisk pilot around. Scimitar can also be used for some of these as well, but generally the Basi is better.

Scimitar
Strengths
-Desgined to run solo
-Excellent tank (I can tank C4's with it, and use it in C5's as well with np)
-Good shield transfer array range, can get 3-4 large S95A's in the high's with np
Cons
-Does not generate cap out of thin air
-Tracking boost, Ive never used before, kind of useless imo
-No bonus to CAP transfer arrays, and as such not as useful

Baslisk
-Largely the same as the guardian but for shields, therefore just apply the same pro's and con's as the Guardian.


Rhava
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.18 15:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Rhava on 18/02/2011 15:11:34
Shield solo = Scimitar
Shield 2+ = Basilisk
Armor solo = Oneiros
Armor 2+ = Guardian

By solo i mean only logistic in gang. A pair of basilisks or guardians performs about 3 times better than the listed single version. (I fly all 4 at lv 5.)

I prefer sig tank over buffer when dealing with logistics.

Ravenesa
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2011.02.18 15:08:00 - [5]
 

First off there is no "Best Logi" they all fit different roles and have different bonuses.

For large gangs and POS bashes you have two choices. If it is an armor based fleet then you use Twin(or more) Guardians. If it is a shield based gang then you use twin+ Basilisks. They feed eachother energy and can perma 3-4 reppers and have a nice T2 buffer tank.

For smaller roaming gangs the Scimitar works well. It is fast and is a shield transfer boat. The Onerios can work as well, but isn't as good. It is an armor transfer boat though.

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.02.18 16:07:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: freshspree on 18/02/2011 16:23:09
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Originally by: Marco P
OK, first I am a big believer in the rock/paper/scissors/sandbox nature of Eve and there is no such thing as "Best Ship" etc.

However, a corp mate lent me his logi the other day during a fleet op and I decided that logis are much more interesting on POS bashes - mostly because you have to actually do something. So given the following constraints, which logi would you recommend and ideally with what fit?

- Assume all skills equal.
- Flexibility is a good thing (armor and shield)
- Cap stability a good thing
- Survivability, primarily EHP and speed (I found burning out of bubbles at 240 m/s dissatisfying)


Thanks

Marco's mate Wink


Speed and Shields = Scimitar
Armor = Guardian
Shield PvE = Basilisk
Sell and buy something else = Oneiros



Quoting for approval. Oneiros costs half of what a scimitar costs nowadays. Any of the logis will get you into an incursion fleet though. Oneiros can run solo me thinks.


[Oneiros, oneiros]

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Link II
10MN Afterburner II

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Cap stable with max skills (logi 5 and everthing that affects cap) and a few imps. The fit looks ok but you'll get jammed once in a while. So yeah...

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.02.18 16:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Rhava
Edited by: Rhava on 18/02/2011 15:11:34
Shield solo = Scimitar
Shield 2+ = Basilisk
Armor solo = Oneiros
Armor 2+ = Guardian

By solo i mean only logistic in gang. A pair of basilisks or guardians performs about 3 times better than the listed single version. (I fly all 4 at lv 5.)

I prefer sig tank over buffer when dealing with logistics.


THIS!

Guardian is favored because most large blobs are armor battle ships and have multiple logi.
Scimitar is shield favored because gangs tend be smaller and speed is more important to them. Often found in the current drake blobs.

Basalisk is great with another shield but do not see to many large shield gangs for PvP.
Oneiros is not to common as smaller gangs depend on speed and armor does not fit that bill.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.18 16:34:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mithrasith

Baslisk
-Largely the same as the guardian but for shields, therefore just apply the same pro's and con's as the Guardian.




This should go without saying, but shields transfer at the beginning of a cycle. Another thing to remember for all the logistics (but ESPECIALLY armor logistics) is that T2 reps cycle faster.

-Liang

Marco P
Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2011.02.18 16:34:00 - [9]
 

Thanks for the replies so far - there seems to be a general concensus, which is rare here!

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.02.18 16:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mithrasith

Baslisk
-Largely the same as the guardian but for shields, therefore just apply the same pro's and con's as the Guardian.




This should go without saying, but shields transfer at the beginning of a cycle. Another thing to remember for all the logistics (but ESPECIALLY armor logistics) is that T2 reps cycle faster.

-Liang


Yeah by .5 secs

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.18 17:32:00 - [11]
 

.5 seconds - that's 10% more repping power. However t2 have tougher fitting requirements. Seems to me that fitting 4 large meta 4 reps is better than fitting 3 L and 1 M t2 reps.
Anyway shield tanking is the superior tanking IMO:
  • Not only does the repping happen in the beginning of the cycle but also you get to fit all those damage mods in the lows.
    Also lets not forget invulnerability fields. It's quite hard to achieve so much bonus to resists from a single module.
    And there's of course the damage control module. If it's armor tanking you'd most likely get better numbers if you fit and EANM. But for shield tanks it's not a choice between invuln or dc, you can fit both of them.
    And lets not underestimate the power of self recharge of shields.


Anyway basi if you work with someone, scimi if you're the sole logi pilot.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.02.18 17:43:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 18/02/2011 17:45:06

Shields:

Use Scimitar if mobility is a concern for your gang and you intend to possibly keep range on the enemy. Otherwise use Basilisk, especially if hostile long-range neuts are on field.

Armor:

For small gang, use a 2:1 ratio of Guardians and Oneiroses. Oneiroses provide remote-eccm for the guardians, Guardians assist Oneiroses with cap transfer.

If you are in a huge blob of Logistics, just use Guardians.


Dont use solo logistics, thats a terrible idea no matter how you twist it.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.02.18 20:02:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Baneken on 18/02/2011 20:02:07
I have oneiros my self and biggest problem I've found with is fitting pretty much anything else with 4 reppers and an AB (a cap booster would be nice).
Also I've noticed that tracking links would be great if only you could actually boost more then just one or two gang members at the same time; I mean who wouldn't want 22,5% optimal and 45% fall off or 45% more tracking for their guns.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.18 23:29:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: freshspree
Yeah by .5 secs


That was you telling everyone "I don't ever fly logistics".

-Liang

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.18 23:47:00 - [15]
 

Pretty much…

There is not "best" logistic, but the Oneiros is the worst one. Wink

Lili Lu
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:53:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 19/02/2011 03:53:42
Oneiros can be nice if you are dual boxing.Wink Not having to think about locking and cap transfer on the cap buddy has it's benefits - If you are in a Guardian it goes something like this - Aw ****, i just got jammed on that character, wait for jam to cycle, lag, so jam cycles again, and again, and again . . . oh it finally let go, who was my cap buddy for that character anyway and is he still alive. . .Razz

Aesynil
Caldari
The Unit...
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:29:00 - [17]
 

I used to hate the Oneiros quite a bit, but after flying it in Incursions pretty extensively, I have to admit I've changed my tune. It can run 4 large reps permenantly with good skills, without any cap buddy. Which is..Excellent. On top of that, 5 medium repair drones do a good bit more then you'd expect. I find it is extremely effective to fly along with a guardian duo, simply because if one of those guardians is jammed, BOTH of them can be completely worthless in roughly 20 seconds if they aren't paying attention / Jam cycles more then once. Then you're there to save the day. I haven't gotten a fit that I liked to put a tracking link on there as well, but the idea is tempting. More DPS = Faster ganking = More ISK, for my purposes, after all.

Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.02.19 07:57:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Shade Millith on 19/02/2011 08:01:34
Edited by: Shade Millith on 19/02/2011 08:00:54
Edited by: Shade Millith on 19/02/2011 07:59:38
Originally by: Rhava
A pair of basilisks or guardians performs about 3 times better than the listed single version.


Bull.

[Oneiros, New Setup 1 copy 3]
Damage Control II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Conjunctive Magnetometric ECCM Scanning Array I
10MN Afterburner II

Large Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Large Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Large Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Medium Coaxial Regenerative Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

With CR4, ZET200, and CC4. (Abotu 40 mil in implants, makes up the 93 v 127 mil price difference in Jita)

Vs

[Guardian, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
True Sansha Adaptive Nano Plating
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Large Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Large Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Medium Coaxial Regenerative Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Both run all the reps. Oneiros is just cap stable, but any problems a quick pulsing off of the medium will sort it out. If you want to argue semantics, the Oneiros actually can rep more, as it can use medium rep drones, over the lights.

And if it's a duo of logi's, using guardians or basi's is ******ed. If one gets jammed, the other becomes useless.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.02.19 08:08:00 - [19]
 

Solo logi boats are not useless.

For shield, Scimitar is better for small gang than Basilisk due to speed and sig. For large blobs there'd be capital support anyway.

For armor, Onieros has the extra mids to fit cap rechargers and be cap stable without cap chain. This means hardly ever drawing aggro in Incursion sites, unlike Guardians that draw aggro constantly.

Each in their own ways, solo logis are better at surviving.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:11:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Baneken on 19/02/2011 09:17:49
Also if we wouldn't be shooting Sanshas 92% kinetic 88% thermal that oneiros (easily) has would be a handy. :p

edit:
I've noticed that while T2 rep the same as best named t2 also have a longer range and use less cap and cycle slightly faster.

Question is should I swap my T2 for named instead to save some grid in my Oneiros ?

James Tiberius Kirk
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:14:00 - [21]
 

Shield fleets:

Scimi prefered.
Basilisk in 3+ numbers is ok.


Armor fleets:

Guardian
there is no other armor logi.

For PvE, why the hell would you go for logi when you could get another gank boat?

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:18:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Lt Angus on 19/02/2011 09:19:00
oneiros has the role of a shield tanker with remote armor reps, so throw it in a shield logi gang and let it handle people who brought the wrong ship

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:46:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Lt Angus
oneiros has the role of a shield tanker with remote armor reps, so throw it in a shield logi gang and let it handle people who brought the wrong ship


I confirm this works far better than it sounds.

-Liang

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:54:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/02/2011 09:55:22
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk

Armor fleets:

Guardian
there is no other armor logi.



Until someone decides to dump a load of ec-600s on your guardians. Then you have no logis at all.

We did roll with pure guardians a lot, and got smashed a lot by ecm heavy opponents.

Having one oneiros for every 2 guardians gives exactly the same repair output or even a bit more if you count armor bots, but 80+ sensor strength on each logi instead of around 40.


This matters a lot if you are running in relatively small gangs where losing just the rep output of a single logi can cost you the fight or break your cap buddy system which basically costs you the fight as well.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.19 10:04:00 - [25]
 

Yeah, rolling nothing but Guardians looks good on paper, then a Scorpion with nothing but radar jammers warps in at 100km and it's suddenly less awesome in practice.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.02.19 10:09:00 - [26]
 

It does work as long as you have scores of logis, you dont have to give a damn about 3 of your 15 guardians being jammed.

But if 2 of your 3 guardians are jammed, thats a huge problem.

W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.19 11:31:00 - [27]
 

lol at all of the 3 rep guardian fits...

Mocam
Posted - 2011.02.19 11:38:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: freshspree
Edited by: freshspree on 18/02/2011 16:23:09
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Originally by: Marco P
OK, first I am a big believer in the rock/paper/scissors/sandbox nature of Eve and there is no such thing as "Best Ship" etc.

However, a corp mate lent me his logi the other day during a fleet op and I decided that logis are much more interesting on POS bashes - mostly because you have to actually do something. So given the following constraints, which logi would you recommend and ideally with what fit?

- Assume all skills equal.
- Flexibility is a good thing (armor and shield)
- Cap stability a good thing
- Survivability, primarily EHP and speed (I found burning out of bubbles at 240 m/s dissatisfying)


Thanks

Marco's mate Wink


Speed and Shields = Scimitar
Armor = Guardian
Shield PvE = Basilisk
Sell and buy something else = Oneiros



Quoting for approval. Oneiros costs half of what a scimitar costs nowadays. Any of the logis will get you into an incursion fleet though. Oneiros can run solo me thinks.


[Oneiros, oneiros]

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reactor Control Unit II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Link II
10MN Afterburner II

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Cap stable with max skills (logi 5 and everthing that affects cap) and a few imps. The fit looks ok but you'll get jammed once in a while. So yeah...


Rework your fit a bit - go shield tank instead of armor. You won't have other logistics there to work with so shield... armor... - it makes no difference with respect to "others helping".

You can get a fully cap stable oneiros fit with roughly 10k EHP more than a Guadian can pull off. Going shield the agility + speed stay sufficiently high to keep up with an AHAC style gang.

It really is a ship with a good role it can fill well - just that role has very small demand for it.

Larger gangs/fleets do well with armor tank so the Guardian has a role. Small shield tank gangs are common - more agile, with the GTFO factor kept healthy so Scimitars have a role. Larger shield tanked gangs keep the Basalisk employed and well respected. There's just a lack of small armor groups that need solo logi support so the Oneiros tends to be "odd man out" for respect for what they can do.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.02.19 16:55:00 - [29]
 

Quote:

Shield solo = Scimitar
Shield 2+ = Basilisk
Armor solo = Oneiros
Armor 2+ = Guardian





 

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