open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Idea] Strategic Frigate
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:06:00 - [1]
 

After writing a post about a possible implementation of strategic frigate, I'v got a lot of support wich lead me to take my idea a step further and propose it to the CSM.

Original Thread

The idea is simple:

-Create T3 Frigate that can be customized the way of a T3 cruiser can be.

We know that T3 Cruiser can tank and DPS like a BS (or near to). Then T3 frigs could tank and DPS like a normal cruiser. They would not be overpowered cause they still have a limitation in pg and cpu wich remind that a frig has limitation.

To see such idea implemented, we would need to see new skills to be added as well.

In the original thread, I were thinking about small subsystem skill, a counterpart of standard one but wich have the same requirements. The difference is that the ''small'' skills is cheaper of course, and lead to the understanding of subsytems used in strategic frigate construction.

Frigate lvl 5 would be also a requirement.

An other idea to make Strategic Frigate more skill intensive would be to make Assault Ship, Covert Op, Interceptor and Electronic Attack Ship trained to at least lvl 1.

Skills related to production would need to be added as well. There could be skills related to small T3 subsystems construction, hull construction but also invention and reverse engineering. Why make new skill for these? This is surely not an obligation, as I think Strategic Frigate should be implemented whatever the skills needed for their production, but if we add specific skill for their production, we could make them easier to train than T3 Cruiser. So if a T3 Frigate would still be difficult to produce, at least it would be easier than a T3 Cruiser. This would lead to consequence like:

- New producers who will be interrested in T3 manufacturing
- Once they will have started in T3 Frig, they will surely want to continue with T3 Cruiser
- This will make T3 Frigates less expensive than T3 Cruiser

What is also important to think, is the (hypothetical I know) material requirement needed in T3 Frigates construction. We must make sure that T3 Frigate price would be proportional to T3 Cruiser price. T3 Frigates should be an investment, not something we buy every day. I imagine that T3 Frigate should be the most expensive frigate (more than Pirate Faction) and maybe more than tier 3 battleship. But price are determined by the market who may change instantly so for that reasons, we must look into the material req more carefully.

Is there any advantage to this?

- Give new player a mid-term goal to achieve. Give them a reason to continue playing.

T3 Frigates have the new player in their aim. T3 Frigate would be less skills intensive than T3 cruiser, but offer the same degree of customization only at a smaller scale, the scale of a frigate. Even older player like to hangs around in frigate so it would be the perfect toy to add in the game.

- Reward player who invest in frigate skilling.

A lot of player skill T2 Frigates cause they are a req for T2 cruiser. Implementing a T3 Frigate would lead these player (who maybe does'nt have the ISK to have a T3 Cruiser) to invest in T3 Frigates. Also, it would gives player who prefer Frigates in combat, a more usefull role in Fleet fight as well in Small gang warfare.

- Sandbox for T3 Cruiser

T3 Cruiser are a major investment in a pod's pilot life. T3 Frigates would permit carefull player to see what subsystems works well with their style of play.

- Let Industrial a chance to start in T3 production

With a easier to make T3 end product, industrials will maybe think it could be a good idea to start T3 production. I think about small corporation, or small alliance that maybe doesnt have the means to make T3 Cruiser.

- Better gaming experience

T3 Frigate would be the little brother of T3 Cruiser. It would add a lot of surprise in any fight, as 2 T3 Frigates can be fitted in a myriad of different ways.

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.17 16:10:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Benjamin Hamburg on 17/02/2011 16:34:52
Sorry for the long post.

So is there any disadvantage?

Yes of course. But none that can't be take care of.

-T1 Frigate fight VS T3 Frigate unbalanced

T3 Frigates would tank and DPS like cruisers, so obviously it would be difficult for a T1 frig to win a fight vs a T3 Frig.

It's not a major issue when we know that T2 Frigate and Cruiser are also overpowered compared to their T1 counterpart. It's also normal that a ship that require a lot of investment in term of skilling and ISK get's the better hand in case of an engagement. And, teamwork is the key of success, like T3 Cruiser are destroyed every day at gate camp or trap, or fleet fight, T3 Frigates would be much more vulnerable to these tactics.

-T3 Frigates price expected to be high

Even if we plan to give a mid-term goal to new player, price of these new ships would require a lot of farming, missioning, or whatever you do to have ISK. The good point in it is that we will see this ship in specific rôle only (like PVE, PVP as tackler, DPS or Bait) and not in overall use.

So if a player decide to do piracy with his T3 Frigate, he can. But he will not find very funny to be tackled by a Inty and destroyed by an AS.

-T3 Frigates vs Faction Cruiser (espescially Pirate fac)

I'm not talking about an eventual fight but about the market. What will happen to Faction Cruiser price? Does player will overlook them in favor of T3 Frigate?

Some of them, surely. But flying a frig is different than a cruiser. Most player who prefer cruisers will stick to faction cruiser. Also faction cruiser are a way less skills intensive that T3 Frigates would be.

So my post come to an end as I think I give many reason to why we should implement T3 Frigate.

Customization is what really matter in EVE. (Fitting, Subs, etc)

If you want to debate the subject, fell free to go in the original thread linked in the first post. If you have already make up your mind, post it here and feel free to add to this, or explain why its not a good idea.

Fuhrer Napoleon
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:25:00 - [3]
 

There's really not much use for a T3 frigate...

What is the point of flying around a T3 frigate?
It's a nice idea...and as a pilot of small-sized ships, I don't mind the idea. But I really don't see a point or any motivation for CCP to make a T3 frigate...

Why?
well, we have assault ships, we have interceptors, etc.
they are all already focused on specific roles. It's great to have a customizable frigate to do certain jobs (just like a T3), however, you have to realize, if that frigate gets hit...it's instant pop (keyword on IF)...

then it wouldn't be so newb friendly anymore as...first of all AF's run at around 10~15M and faction frigs 20M+...so...a T3 frig wud have to be priced around 30~50M?

at that price, the battlecruiser would be a way better option and way more useful..

keep in mind that many T3's are used for ratting and jewing...they're not used as often in fleet battles etc...with a T3 frig, you can't rat in that...and most likely you wouldn't want to take it out on a fleet battle/roam considering the fact that others who use regular T2 frigs aren't missing out too much on the bonuses...


It's a great idea and your argument about helping out newbs is enticing...

I just don't feel a need.


Goose99
Posted - 2011.02.17 18:55:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 17/02/2011 18:55:25
I do feel a need, from interdiction nullifier alone. That plus frig size and lower cost, is just perfect. Those residing deep within the blue ass of alliances need to be less comfortable.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.17 22:20:00 - [5]
 

The Frigate range is already completely saturated, there's over 60 different frigate class ships in game and only maybe a third of them are actually useful. Introducing a further range of T3s into this would only make the problem worse.

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.17 22:35:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The Frigate range is already completely saturated, there's over 60 different frigate class ships in game and only maybe a third of them are actually useful. Introducing a further range of T3s into this would only make the problem worse.


There is indeed a lot of frigate.

I don't know if only the third are usefull, but I know that a T3 would surely be.

Please clarify, how a T3 Frig would make the problem worse? What problem? And how worse?

Fight Song
Amarr
Power Penguin Pew
Posted - 2011.02.18 01:51:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Benjamin Hamburg


Please clarify, how a T3 Frig would make the problem worse? What problem? And how worse?


Well for starters id hear way more whine about unprobeable ships....

but look at it this way
t3 cruisers take the advantages of a cruiser and give it the dps of a bs (and higher)

soooo, the question is do you really want a ship with all the advantages of a frig doing bc type damage?
t3 frig would need to be pre-nerfed in so many ways im not sure the end result would be recognizable as a frig. Would have to deal with its speed and sig at the very least.

On the other hand- a ship with a sig of 40 that goes 1km/sec (with just an ab) and does 500 dps....
I do kind of want but how do you make it suck enough to not make every other ship in the game obsolete?

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.02.18 02:00:00 - [8]
 

I will not support this since it is inevitable that T3 Frigates will be introduced to the game. Just as it is inevitable that T3 Battlecruisers and Battleships will be.

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.18 03:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Fight Song

I do kind of want but how do you make it suck enough to not make every other ship in the game obsolete?


Price.


Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
I will not support this since it is inevitable that T3 Frigates will be introduced to the game. Just as it is inevitable that T3 Battlecruisers and Battleships will be.


Iv heard many rumors, but it's difficult to say what's true and what's not. I think that CCP must know if we want to see them.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.18 03:06:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/02/2011 03:12:34
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
The Frigate range is already completely saturated, there's over 60 different frigate class ships in game and only maybe a third of them are actually useful. Introducing a further range of T3s into this would only make the problem worse.


There have been 49 cruiser hulls in game, not counting various rarities that arent available in mass quantities, before they introduced 4 new t3 cruisers.

And unlike with the cruiser class, there are quite a few roles that arent filled yet. For example no logistic frigates, no cloaky ewar frigates, no gang booster frigates just to name a few, so there are a few things that t3 frigates could do without stepping on the turf of existing ships like the t3 cruisers mainly did.

Jennifer Emmagan
Deep Core Mining Inc.

Posted - 2011.02.18 06:31:00 - [11]
 

+1

Gerrick Palivorn
Posted - 2011.02.18 06:52:00 - [12]
 

T3 Frigates I've been waiting for, for a long long time, ever since the introduction of Strategic Cruisers. T3 gets used all the time for support roles, I know that T3's are used as antifrigate platforms and Commandships in Black Ops gangs. The ability to put a cloaky-inty through a BOps bridge with out it being a bomber is a strategic advantage that I would gladly pay 50 mil for. It might even make Black Ops more useful on there current platform as you wouldn't have to send a cruiser to do a frigates job...

+1 and thanks for all the fish

As a side note my personal belief is that CCP won't do a thing in the T3 field until someone cracks the secret of the Sleepers. See you in Whiskeyspace

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.18 08:19:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Benjamin Hamburg
Please clarify, how a T3 Frig would make the problem worse? What problem? And how worse?


Because the inevitable consequence of squeezing more frigate hulls into the range is that even more frigates will become outclassed. We're already seeing frigate-level PvP boiling down to dramiels, bombers, interceptors and the occasional rifter or minmatar assault frigate, with everything else left to spin in the station or used on gimmick ops to create amusing lossmails.

What the frigate class needs is a major reworking so that more of the existing hulls are worth bothering with, so that assault frigates and electronic frigates are viable choices, so that dramiels are nerfed down to a level where other faction frigates can get a look in, and so that the T1 range is more closely balanced and newbies can be given advice other than 'crosstrain to minmatar, fly a rifter'.

Until that issue is dealt with, adding T3 to the mix and introducing a new range of super-frigs with the ability to outperform some of the already small number of viable PvP frigates (and with the amount of customisation available, some available combinations inevitably would do) only deepens the existing divide.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.02.18 10:34:00 - [14]
 

If anything t3 frigates should be strategic ideed.

cyno jammer.

ability to scan ships while cloaked.

many more things like that.

etc

Kwashi
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
Posted - 2011.02.18 18:47:00 - [15]
 

If the aim is to make a customizable frigate that is jack of all trades, master of none: do frigate types truly have enough roles among them that such a ship would be useful?

If the aim is to make an expensive über-frigate that beats everything else in its class: no way!

I could get behind more customization in fitting ships, but not power creep for the sake of itself...

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.18 19:13:00 - [16]
 

bugger frigates.

Commoner
Caldari
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.02.18 21:44:00 - [17]
 

T3 RR frigate pl0x!...!

Falin Whalen
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.19 02:16:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Benjamin Hamburg
Originally by: Fight Song

I do kind of want but how do you make it suck enough to not make every other ship in the game obsolete?


Price.


Price is not, and can not be, a balancing factor. Just look at supercaps.


Originally by: Benjamin Hamburg
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
I will not support this since it is inevitable that T3 Frigates will be introduced to the game. Just as it is inevitable that T3 Battlecruisers and Battleships will be.


Iv heard many rumors, but it's difficult to say what's true and what's not. I think that CCP must know if we want to see them.


If CCP is smart they will not look into T3 frigates, as that would obsolete many T1 and T2 frigates. Power creep is bad. Have to agree with goon here, do not support.

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:38:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Falin Whalen


Price is not, and can not be, a balancing factor. Just look at supercaps.




We are not talking about the same frig I think. I am thinking about a frig that can be customized and have special role that would be reserved for it. Some people have talked about cyno jammer, other thinks that it would be great only for interdiction nullifier. I don't mind an invicible frig. And we just can't make every frigate at the same power.

In EVE, some ship are better than other. Caldari have ECM and are maybe the best EWAR of all the race. Gallente got huge drones cargo hold. Minmatar got speed and Amarr got good armor bonus. It's the way EVE is planned to be. We don't need to nerf down faction Frig cause they are powerfull. What we need is to add diversity. After that, don't worry about the fact T3 frigate would be too powerfull. It's not a Jove ship idea. T3 Frigate are not invincible just because they use sleepers tech.


Originally by: Falin Whalen


If CCP is smart they will not look into T3 frigates, as that would obsolete many T1 and T2 frigates. Power creep is bad. Have to agree with goon here, do not support.


T3 Cruiser doest have maked T2 or T1 cruiser obsolete. They are so much expensive that most people prefer T2 Cruiser or even Battleship. That's why I firstly said that price would have a balancing effect.

Sure, you can be a demi-god in a T3 cruiser. It's the way CCP wanted T3 Cruiser to be. T3 Frigate doesnt need to be like their big brother. That's the key of subsystems.

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:54:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Benjamin Hamburg on 19/02/2011 04:55:37
There are also a lack of frigate if we compare to the cruiser.

There is no ''logistic'' frigate. Why not make a subsystems that could give some bonus to different sort of logistic?

Here is some example:

-remote sensor booster
-projected eccm
-tracking link


A subsystems that permit to fit gang module. (like 1 or 2)

We doesn't need to make a copy/paste from T3 Cruiser's subsystems. It's 100 miles away from my main idea.

T3 Frig should specialized as T3 Cruiser can be, but in different field.

If some feature must stays (Cloaking, Interdiction nullifier, etc)

Others should be removed (armor resist bonus, etc)

And added (Cyno jammer? Warfare link? Logistic? EWAR counter measure?)

Of course, a T3 Frig would do maybe more DPS than a T1. Would it be interresting if it were not the case? I think not.

Things been said, i'm not trying to convince anyone. I don't really care but I just think the T3 is a familly that need to be completed. Very Happy

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:36:00 - [21]
 

We don't need frigates that can fit a gang module; we need more versatile frigates, for frigate specific tactics.

Frigates that can fit better Tackle
Frigates that can fit better Cov Op's
Frigates that can Maneuver Faster
Frigates that have higher Warp speeds
Frigates that can fit better DPS and Tank

Strategic ships are about versatility in fitting; not granting abilities better suited to larger craft.

Remote-Repping frigate = Good idea; Gang-link Frigate = Bad idea

Frigates are support craft



Falin Whalen
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.19 16:05:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Falin Whalen on 19/02/2011 16:25:23
Originally by: Cassus Temon
We don't need frigates that can fit a gang module; we need more versatile frigates, for frigate specific tactics.

Frigates that can fit better Tackle
That would be the Interceptors.
Quote:

Frigates that can fit better Cov Op's
Cov ops already fill that role.
Quote:

Frigates that can Maneuver Faster
A Vigil can pretty much come close to Inti speeds already.
Quote:

Frigates that have higher Warp speeds
This I can see, but it should have almost no DPS and tank. You want a Greayhound, you have to strip it down to make it fast.
Quote:

Frigates that can fit better DPS and Tank
We already have Assault Frigates.
Quote:


Strategic ships are about versatility in fitting; not granting abilities better suited to larger craft.

Remote-Repping frigate = Good idea; Gang-link Frigate = Bad idea

Frigates are support craft



RR Frigate is a bad idea, and would get used about as much as the EAS frigates. An Exequror, or Osprey, can do more, cheeper, than a RR Figate could ever hope to acheve. If there is a role that isn't already filled by another craft, or isn't to nich, then by all means petition to put it in the game. Just because it sounds cool and neat, doesn't make it good to put in the game.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.02.19 17:54:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Falin Whalen
Edited by: Falin Whalen on 19/02/2011 16:25:23
Originally by: Cassus Temon
We don't need frigates that can fit a gang module; we need more versatile frigates, for frigate specific tactics.

Frigates that can fit better Tackle
That would be the Interceptors.
Quote:

Frigates that can fit better Cov Op's
Cov ops already fill that role.
Quote:

Frigates that can Maneuver Faster
A Vigil can pretty much come close to Inti speeds already.
Quote:

Frigates that have higher Warp speeds
This I can see, but it should have almost no DPS and tank. You want a Greayhound, you have to strip it down to make it fast.
Quote:

Frigates that can fit better DPS and Tank
We already have Assault Frigates.
Quote:


Strategic ships are about versatility in fitting; not granting abilities better suited to larger craft.

Remote-Repping frigate = Good idea; Gang-link Frigate = Bad idea

Frigates are support craft



RR Frigate is a bad idea, and would get used about as much as the EAS frigates. An Exequror, or Osprey, can do more, cheeper, than a RR Figate could ever hope to acheve. If there is a role that isn't already filled by another craft, or isn't to nich, then by all means petition to put it in the game. Just because it sounds cool and neat, doesn't make it good to put in the game.


None of those matter, we need a frigate with interdiction nullifier.

Gerrick Palivorn
Posted - 2011.02.19 19:01:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Falin Whalen
Edited by: Falin Whalen on 19/02/2011 16:25:23
Originally by: Cassus Temon
We don't need frigates that can fit a gang module; we need more versatile frigates, for frigate specific tactics.

Frigates that can fit better Tackle
That would be the Interceptors...


Roles that T2 Cruisers fulfill that T3 can do.

EWAR-Recon
DPS-HAC
Tank-Hictors(with bonus of the bubble, a special exception)
Cloak-Force Recon
RR-Logistics
Gang Links-Command Ships

The point is that the T3 ships can do all of these things and more with special cases as noted. They don't do it as well as any of there specific counterparts (again with exceptions), the strength lies in the fact that you can mix and match, versitility is key in this case.

T3 Tech in Frigates would introduce a new era in Frigate versitility and you wouldn't need to apply the standard Cruiser roles either, you'd pull from the standard accepted Frigate platforms as you've already aptly provided, a Covops cloaky Interceptor with decent dps/great tank would be amazing.

I also wonder if you'd say the same things about T3 battleships?

Gerrick Palivorn

Falin Whalen
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.19 20:34:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gerrick Palivorn
The point is that the T3 ships can do all of these things and more with special cases as noted. They don't do it as well as any of there specific counterparts (again with exceptions), the strength lies in the fact that you can mix and match, versitility is key in this case.

T3 Tech in Frigates would introduce a new era in Frigate versitility and you wouldn't need to apply the standard Cruiser roles either, you'd pull from the standard accepted Frigate platforms as you've already aptly provided, a Covops cloaky Interceptor with decent dps/great tank would be amazing.

I also wonder if you'd say the same things about T3 battleships?

Gerrick Palivorn
Ah, I know your type. Please continue to yell and scream at CCP for the bright shiny toy that you want. I'm sure your next move is holding your breath? Growing up I was promised vacations on the moon, flying cars, undersea hotels, and a lot of other neat spiffy things that sounded great, and still do. You say you want a "new era of frigate versitility", I say you want a new shiny pwnmobile, to show the scrubs who's boss. As for battleships, there is no versatillity to them.(Unless you count smashing things with a brick versitile.) Crusiers are the best option for T3 ships, as they would have the tank, and the versatility of the crusier line, without the fragillity of frigates, and lack of versatility of battleships.

Gerrick Palivorn
Posted - 2011.02.19 22:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Falin Whalen
Ah, I know your type. Please continue to yell and scream at CCP for the bright shiny toy that you want. I'm sure your next move is holding your breath? Growing up I was promised vacations on the moon, flying cars, undersea hotels, and a lot of other neat spiffy things that sounded great, and still do. You say you want a "new era of frigate versitility", I say you want a new shiny pwnmobile, to show the scrubs who's boss. As for battleships, there is no versatillity to them.(Unless you count smashing things with a brick versitile.) Crusiers are the best option for T3 ships, as they would have the tank, and the versatility of the crusier line, without the fragillity of frigates, and lack of versatility of battleships.


Try not to derail topics with personal attacks, if you feel that you have a valid argument on why T3 frigates shouldn't be implimented, that is what you are supposed to do here.

Hope that this clears things up. Still +1 for T3 Frigs, a more effecient platform of stepping up from T2 to T3 is needed and the versatility of Frigates alone makes them a perfect fit for the next T3 evolution. While I know that this won't happen for a while, seeing as I'm completely baffled by the whole sleeper thing, it'll be a great addition to Eve when they do emerge(pun intended). Very Happy

Gerrick Palivorn

Styria Strike
Amarr
Axial tilt
The Babylon Consortium
Posted - 2011.02.19 23:06:00 - [27]
 

nonsence.

your T3 frig is the dram,can a frig be even better?

Goose99
Posted - 2011.02.20 00:18:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Styria Strike
nonsence.

your T3 frig is the dram,can a frig be even better?


Dram don't have interdiction nullifier. Interdiction Nullifier is what t3 is all about. Anything else can be done in other ships, yet no other ship can do what t3 can. Whatever it is that you do, you can't do it if your ship is bubbled and blobbed. Therefore, t3 can do everything, and everything else can do nothing. Err... yeah.Laughing

Styria Strike
Amarr
Axial tilt
The Babylon Consortium
Posted - 2011.02.20 00:31:00 - [29]
 

9 km/s overheated is your interdiction nullifier :D

Hell'sAngel
Posted - 2011.02.20 11:00:00 - [30]
 

Guessing its too soon to add any more t3 in yet. They can easily unbalance the game even more. T3 wont be much of a use, the game already got alot of ships and some not even used much.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only