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Myriel Viper
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:06:00 - [1]
 

I like the ships of the Omen hull a lot, thus I work towards flying ships like the Zealot or the Omen Navy Issue, even though I am adding skills to fly battleships and battlecruisers for now (current primary ship's a Prophecy).

There is just some things I don't understand: What's really the point of those crusiers. An Omen Navy Issue costs about as much as an Apocalypse battleship, but the potential firepower is no greater than a battlecruiser. It is faster and has a considerably smaller singature size than a battlecruiser, but it still can't tank more because it has less armor.

I have a setup projected for future skills on monday 28 of an Omen Navy Issue, trying to not let it become too expensive:
[Omen Navy Issue, Summerday]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Overdrive Injector System II
'Skadi' Coolant System I
'Skadi' Coolant System I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I
Beta Reactor Control: Diagnostic System I
Beta Reactor Control: Reaction Control I

Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

I swap the crystals on the fly as needed of course. The velocity would 553 m/s, cap stable at 43%, 112m signature size, 239 DPS (without drones), volley damage 561 Damage, Effective Hit Points 12936, Defence 58. The drawback is the price, I guess... 129.3 million isk according to EFT. I could probably fly level 3 missions with it, but that's it, I guess. According to the comments I've read, most people think that's not worthy to fly with, because you could get a basic battleship for the same money.

Most setups I've seen for such ships use MicroWarpDrives. I am no so sure whether that is such a good idea, since it would blow up the signature size to 625 in case of an Omen Navy Issue and 750 in case of an Omen (for comparison: Apocalypse: 400, Abaddon: 475) and play havoc with energy grid and capacitor. Since relative signature resolution and relative tracking capability are multiplied in the exponent, activating a MicroWarpDrive to orbit an enemy with similar turrets would make give the enemy a lot better to-hit chance than myself. And to aproach an enemy and then deactivate it would also be extremely dangerous, because at that time the transversal velocity would be so low, that even large turrets of any kind would have a 100% hit chance. So I don't really get the point of putting MWDs in a cruiser sized ship.

So the question is, what's the point of the ships of the Omen types and, and how do you use them correctly to make best use of their capabilities.

Kepakh
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:26:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper

So the question is, what's the point of the ships of the Omen types and, and how do you use them correctly to make best use of their capabilities.


Omen hulls are PVP ships - range and speed are what they are about.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:34:00 - [3]
 

Why do you have so many fitting mods on, that should fit with the bare minimum of fitting skills. My advice though is until you can fit all that using tech 2 mods, stick to a harbinger.

Alua Oresson
V I R I I
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:39:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper
It is faster and has a considerably smaller singature size than a battlecruiser


This is why people use it. Speed and sig radius is extremely important in PVP.


Originally by: Myriel Viper
Most setups I've seen for such ships use MicroWarpDrives. I am no so sure whether that is such a good idea, since it would blow up the signature size to 625 in case of an Omen Navy Issue and 750 in case of an Omen (for comparison: Apocalypse: 400, Abaddon: 475) and play havoc with energy grid and capacitor.


The reason most PVP ships, at least 0.0 ones, fit a MWD is in order to get away. Warp disruption bubbles can and will ruin your day.

Myriel Viper
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:47:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper
Most setups I've seen for such ships use MicroWarpDrives. I am no so sure whether that is such a good idea, since it would blow up the signature size to 625 in case of an Omen Navy Issue and 750 in case of an Omen (for comparison: Apocalypse: 400, Abaddon: 475) and play havoc with energy grid and capacitor.


The reason most PVP ships, at least 0.0 ones, fit a MWD is in order to get away. Warp disruption bubbles can and will ruin your day.



Yeah, but wouldn't it make more sense using an Afterburner and several overdrive injectors, nanofibers and alike, or maybe overfitting a battleship afterburner then?

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:50:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper
Originally by: Myriel Viper
Most setups I've seen for such ships use MicroWarpDrives. I am no so sure whether that is such a good idea, since it would blow up the signature size to 625 in case of an Omen Navy Issue and 750 in case of an Omen (for comparison: Apocalypse: 400, Abaddon: 475) and play havoc with energy grid and capacitor.


The reason most PVP ships, at least 0.0 ones, fit a MWD is in order to get away. Warp disruption bubbles can and will ruin your day.



Yeah, but wouldn't it make more sense using an Afterburner and several overdrive injectors, nanofibers and alike, or maybe overfitting a battleship afterburner then?


Fitting a battleship afterburner to a cruiser will mean that you lose all your agility.

Just fitting an cruiser afterburner and then loads of overdrives will not give you the same speed as a mwd cruiser and will reduce your tank lower which then reduces the number of targets that you can effectively fight.

Alua Oresson
V I R I I
Posted - 2011.02.16 11:58:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: Myriel Viper
Originally by: Myriel Viper
Most setups I've seen for such ships use MicroWarpDrives. I am no so sure whether that is such a good idea, since it would blow up the signature size to 625 in case of an Omen Navy Issue and 750 in case of an Omen (for comparison: Apocalypse: 400, Abaddon: 475) and play havoc with energy grid and capacitor.


The reason most PVP ships, at least 0.0 ones, fit a MWD is in order to get away. Warp disruption bubbles can and will ruin your day.



Yeah, but wouldn't it make more sense using an Afterburner and several overdrive injectors, nanofibers and alike, or maybe overfitting a battleship afterburner then?


Fitting a battleship afterburner to a cruiser will mean that you lose all your agility.

Just fitting an cruiser afterburner and then loads of overdrives will not give you the same speed as a mwd cruiser and will reduce your tank lower which then reduces the number of targets that you can effectively fight.


Just to add on, what you suggested was using 4 or 5 modules to approach the performance of just one module. Module slots are fairly precious commodities. And yes there are trade offs to using a MWD. You don't have as much cap generally. Of course generally a fight doesn't last long enough to run you out of cap (barring neuts being used).

Sonya Kranz
Posted - 2011.02.16 12:13:00 - [8]
 

Id probably fit it something like this, assuming you want to use it for pve purposes.
I added in the reactor control since i assume your skills arent sufficient enough to go without, you wont need it if you have good fitting skills though.
Another option is to switch out one cap rig for an ancillery current router, and lose the reaction control but all that depends on skills again.


[Omen Navy Issue, pve]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Reactor Control Unit I

Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2011.02.16 12:41:00 - [9]
 

The Omen is a notoriously tight fit, even with perfect skills.

If you have anything less than perfect fitting skills, you should try flying something else first imho.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.02.16 12:45:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ultim8Evil
The Omen is a notoriously tight fit, even with perfect skills.

If you have anything less than perfect fitting skills, you should try flying something else first imho.



Thats true for the Omen however all the fits mentioned including the one in the OP are for the Omen Navy Issue which is not a tight fit at all.

Myriel Viper
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.16 14:25:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Myriel Viper on 16/02/2011 14:36:39
Edited by: Myriel Viper on 16/02/2011 14:35:25
Well then, would you consider this to be a worthy "entry level" pvp fitting?
It's designed to be as cheap as anyhow possible, so you can absolutely effort to loose it and the enemy wouldn't gain much out of destroying it - as is probably the only viable approach with a low skill level. The only components that are not absolute basic are the webifier and the mwd. "Heavy" type lasers just won't fit, so I had to step down to "focused".

[Omen, Dove]
Medium Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I
Heat Sink I
Power Diagnostic System I
Capacitor Power Relay I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Cap Recharger I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.02.16 14:38:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper
Edited by: Myriel Viper on 16/02/2011 14:35:25
Well then, would you consider this to be a worthy "entry level" pvp fitting?
It's designed to be as cheap as anyhow possible, so you can absolutely effort to loose it and the enemy wouldn't gain much out of destroying it - as is probably the only viable approach with a low skill level. The only components that are not absolute basic are the webifier and the mwd. "Heavy" type lasers just won't fit, so I had to step down to "focused".

[Omen, Dove]
Medium Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Plating I
Heat Sink I
Power Diagnostic System I
Capacitor Power Relay I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Cap Recharger I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I



Dont use that many cap mods in pvp it detracts from your tank and cap stability isnt hugely important as most fights are over fairly quickly.

I would recommend while your skills are low buffer tanking your ship


[Omen, New Setup 1]
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor I
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 200

Focused Modal Pulse Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Modal Pulse Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Modal Pulse Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Modal Pulse Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Modal Pulse Laser I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I


Warrior II x3

Use something along those lines and get your gunnery skills up so you can use tech 2 guns as lasers become really good once you can use scorch.

Like I said though the harbinger would be better just because it has a larger tank and more damage

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2011.02.16 15:13:00 - [13]
 

There is only one fit for a regular Omen and that is Nano fit with Scorch.
5xT2 med pulse
MWD, Cap booster
DCU II, Nano/Heat sink

And that's it.
Very cheap Vaga with no real tank to speak off, but it works.
Omen Navy Issue is the more expensive version with better fittings available.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2011.02.16 15:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper
Originally by: Myriel Viper
Most setups I've seen for such ships use MicroWarpDrives. I am no so sure whether that is such a good idea, since it would blow up the signature size to 625 in case of an Omen Navy Issue and 750 in case of an Omen (for comparison: Apocalypse: 400, Abaddon: 475) and play havoc with energy grid and capacitor.


The reason most PVP ships, at least 0.0 ones, fit a MWD is in order to get away. Warp disruption bubbles can and will ruin your day.



Yeah, but wouldn't it make more sense using an Afterburner and several overdrive injectors, nanofibers and alike, or maybe overfitting a battleship afterburner then?


Ummm... have you seen the fitting ability of the omen hull ships? Sure you could do that... if you wanted to gimp your ship in other ways.

Myriel Viper
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.16 17:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping


Yeah, but wouldn't it make more sense using an Afterburner and several overdrive injectors, nanofibers and alike, or maybe overfitting a battleship afterburner then?


Ummm... have you seen the fitting ability of the omen hull ships? Sure you could do that... if you wanted to gimp your ship in other ways.


I am not really experienced. While a was part of a fight where destroyed an enemy Strategic Cruiser I can't really take credit for it - in fact I lost a Punisher during that fight. Though most people might argue that trading a Punisher for a Loki is a pretty good deal. That particular fight happened to be very long, thus, my tendency to keep ships stable.

However, I have two reasons why I dislike MWDs. And while most posters seem to be much more experienced than me and practical experience certainly outweighs theoretical considerations, some comments make me suspect that not really everyone here understands the meaning of signature radius.

Should anything I say be incorrect, I beg you to correct me.

An Omen with active MicroWarpDrive is, as far as the game system is concerned, almost twice as big as a battleship. 750 meters signature radius. And the signature radius is the actual size of the ship.

ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)

Now, if you move with 1200 m/s you will get a relatively high transversal velocity. But you must realize that that transversal velocity always works both ways, unless your opponent is standing completely still. Thus the disadvantage your enemy suffers from your high speed is the same that you get.

However, the signature radius increase will only be a penalty to yourself, thus, if you engage an enemy using an MWD, an enemy with similar turrets as you have will have a lot easier time hitting you than the other way around.

That's number one.

Number two is: A ship moving 600 m/s constantly using an afterburner and having a signature size of 125 meters doesn't need as much tanking abilities than one moving 1200 m/s for brief boosts and 190 m/s otherwise, having a signature radius of 750 meters during the boosts. If you take only a fraction of the damage, you consequently need less tanking power. If a side effect of that is, that you have a lot more energy grid and capacitor to your avail, that's not so bad either.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.02.16 17:12:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Andrea Griffin on 16/02/2011 17:18:23
The ability to dictate range is key in PvP. Also, you don't have to keep your MWD running all the time. Pulse it when you need the speed to keep your preferred range on a target, shut it off to save cap and not have the signature penalty when it isn't needed.

You can stick to your afterburners. I'll keep my ability to kite you an entire fight and keep my "GTFO" card if I happen to need it.

Afterburners are viable on some ships and setups, but generally for frigates hulls.

Edit: When you PvP for a while you'll understand why MWDs are far more common than ABs. I'm not trying to put you down at all or be patronizing - I used to think that ABs were better, particularly because of the cap penalty. But over time experience showed me that MWD is the better option in most cases.

These are things that can't be shown with a formula because in Eve there's many, many factors in a fight.

Tyte Eyez
Posted - 2011.02.16 18:29:00 - [17]
 

You can't put a decent tank on the omen, so understand that in any fairish fight, once you get into web/scram range you are probably going to die. If you fit AB on your omen this will result in you not being able to dictate range. Therefore, if somebody thinks they can kill you they will, and if they don't think so they will leave you in the dust.

The only exception to this would be some kind of specialized funny-fit with AB and the largest tank possible (maybe even downgrading to small ACs or lasers). Then you would sit on a gate or station and wait on some sucker to start a fight with a plated omen in a frigate in web range. Then again, about any cruiser with 3 mids can probably do this better than the omen.

My advice if you want to pvp as amarr with your SP is to fly a punisher with AB, longpoint, and nos, because omens and prophecies aren't for serious business.

Myriel Viper
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.16 19:48:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tyte Eyez

My advice if you want to pvp as amarr with your SP is to fly a punisher with AB, longpoint, and nos, because omens and prophecies aren't for serious business.

What's the problem here, the skill level or the ships? The about maller and harbinger?

Jim Tudeski
Posted - 2011.02.16 19:56:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Jim Tudeski on 16/02/2011 20:02:36
Edited by: Jim Tudeski on 16/02/2011 20:01:37
Originally by: Tyte Eyez
My advice if you want to pvp as amarr with your SP is to fly a punisher with AB, longpoint, and nos, because omens and prophecies aren't for serious business.

Prophecy not serious business? Have you seen the EHP that thing can get? I mean, sure its a known bait ship but if a fleet thats been blueballed enough comes across it in a belt, they will engage it. Or gate campers on known gates in shiny ships will engage it also. Then all you have to do is light the cyno for SC/titan bridge ownage or have your fleet come in once the shiny is tackled.

[Prophecy, New Setup 1]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5

Oh and don't forget about this fit which has 76k EHP with just it as booster and a mindlink + 451 DPS. Not to mention it will most likely be targetted last since "lolbait" LaughingLaughingLaughing

Kepakh
Posted - 2011.02.16 22:30:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Myriel Viper

What's the problem here, the skill level or the ships? The about maller and harbinger?


Both.

Larger ship you fly, more Skill points you need to fly it properly. Truth is though, that Amarr T1 laser cruisers simply suck. There isn't anything reasonable you can pull out of them.

Omen is a glass cannon without DPS, just range and Maller has high tank but no DPS.


The best you can go is Arbitrator with neuts.

Harbinger is okey.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2011.02.16 23:44:00 - [21]
 

It's not like you perma run the mwd.... EVER with a omen hull, or almost any ship for that matter...


Omen class vessels are dps glass cannons.


 

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