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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2011.02.04 16:56:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Archbeholder
...
You are paying for service(maintenance). Expansions cost extra. Thats why you dont get any expansions.


EVE is not what is was 7 years ago. all that change was paid by subs. that's why i said it's a "service", because the "product" is in continual development.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:08:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Terazul

What other game provides expansions that create wholly new gameplay? I am curious as to whether or not anyone can actually make such a claim with a straight face. Rolling Eyes


Incarna and Dust would be horizontal. Your other examples are features that have appeared in other games before, going all the way back to UA, Asheron's Call, and EQ.


My apologies in advance for using WoW as a counter-example, but...

Quote:

-Wormholes, which have no real equivalent in any other MMO on the market

WoW- PvP zones and PvP currency. (Not to imply that WoW's market can hold a candle to Eve's.)

Quote:
-Planetary Interaction (yes, it's not feature-complete, but it is functional as an extension of industry)

WoW- gathering professions. Fishing.

Quote:
-Factional Warfare (again, it's got problems, I know)

Wow- battlegrounds, PvP zones, Tol Barad.

Quote:
-Incursions

WoW- elemental invasions of capitals during pre-cataclysm build-up. Dev is also on record as saying that Incursions was inspired by UO (or was it EQ?)

Quote:
-Constant revision and iteration of core game mechanics and game balance

WoW- Rolling a Warlock should come with a subscription to the lube of the month club.

Quote:
-New character creation

WoW- You can change your character's appearance at a barber shop.

Quote:
-In the future, a whole game within the game in the form of Incarna


Star Wars Galaxies- the jump to lightspeed or whatever the flying expansion thingie was called.



Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:10:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Magnus Orin on 04/02/2011 17:17:25
I think the status quo would be the preferable method for the majority of the player-base simply because it is very alt friendly.

If I had a single account, I would probably prefer to spend a bit more once every one or two years for a high quality expansion, but because I have 3 accounts, I would like to see the bi-annual content patch cycle continue.

I would imagine CCP would see a large number of alt accounts close if they were to implement paid Expansions, regardless of the quality.

Edit:

Another reason I don't see this ever implemented is that a large part of CCP's design philosophy is that all players have a shared experience within the game world.

What I mean is that if something in the Eve universe is happening, every player has the opportunity to affect it, or be affected by it. Basically how does the person who did not purchase the expansion view the game world in contrast to the person who did.

Free expansions level the playing field and creates an equal game work for everyone, at the cost of potentially lower quality content updates.

I enjoy Eve for the $45 per month I pay to play it. I have no problems with the quality of the content of CCP's expansions.

Paid expansions would destroy this as much as separate servers would.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:16:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Magnus Orin

I would imagine CCP would see a large number of alt accounts close if they were to implement paid Expansions, regardless of the quality.

So because you've got alts I'll have to do level 4 missions a few more years?

Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:23:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Magnus Orin

I would imagine CCP would see a large number of alt accounts close if they were to implement paid Expansions, regardless of the quality.

So because you've got alts I'll have to do level 4 missions a few more years?


It is but one reason of many that paid expansion will never make into CCP's business model I predict, but sure if you want to attack the fact that I have 3 accounts and you don't;

Yes I am happy you are stuck in high sec doing boring missions over and over again for a few more years because you fail at Eve.

If you actually had a clue, you would realize that a tremendous amount of the free content patches CCP has released have gone to the benefit of carebears and mission runners:

Noctis
Orca
Wormholes
Pirate Mission Arcs
Epic Mission Arcs
Incursions
And a slew of new missions released in almost every single content update I've read the patch notes for since playing Eve.

Terazul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:26:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

Incarna and Dust would be horizontal. Your other examples are features that have appeared in other games before, going all the way back to UA, Asheron's Call, and EQ.

Again, I'm talking in context about expansions. WoW is fine as an example, except, y'know, the fact that it's made by Blizzard and thus benefits from limitless funding and enormous manpower.

EQ2, for example, has long enjoyed lazy expansions where the actual gameplay is exactly the same as the previous expansion's, just with a new coat of paint. Aion's first expansion has been similarly lazy, though at least the new zones have some interesting mechanics to them. Star Wars Galaxies can only claim Jump to Lightspeed as an actual expansion; the rest were trotted-up adventure packs.

Anyways, getting back to WoW,
Quote:
WoW- PvP zones and PvP currency. (Not to imply that WoW's market can hold a candle to Eve's.)

Not expansion content. Irrelevant.
Quote:
WoW- gathering professions. Fishing.

See above.
Quote:
Wow- battlegrounds, PvP zones, Tol Barad.

Do they include sovereignty mechanics? If not, no dice.
Quote:
WoW- elemental invasions of capitals during pre-cataclysm build-up. Dev is also on record as saying that Incursions was inspired by UO (or was it EQ?)
Do they include actual rewards? Or are they just events for the sake of having them? For that matter, are they regularly recurring content that players can repeat ad nauseum?
Quote:
WoW- Rolling a Warlock should come with a subscription to the lube of the month club.

Lawl! This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, which are changes to core game mechanics, like sovereignty, the massive speed revamp, and the reintroduction of MWD to deadspace complexes and mission spaces. Y'know, things that actually change the game in fundamental ways.

Oh, and this one is lulzy
Quote:
WoW- You can change your character's appearance at a barber shop.

Seriously. What? Did you just compare a completely new character creation system with brand-new art assets using modern graphics technology to a freakin' barber shop?!

Hold on, I gotta read that again
Quote:
WoW- You can change your character's appearance at a barber shop.

...Yes. Yes, you did. Oh, gawd. My brain. My poor, poor brain. What hast thou done?! Evil or Very Mad

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:33:00 - [37]
 

I'd be willing to pay to get old bugs and imbalances fixed.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:34:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Archbeholder on 04/02/2011 17:34:20
Originally by: Terazul

WoW is fine as an example, except, y'know, the fact that it's made by Blizzard and thus benefits from limitless funding and enormous manpower.


When(if) you'll grow up you'll(or wont) realise that money don't grow on trees and that this "limitless" funding has been acquired through quite a few successful games.

Minaxa
Posted - 2011.02.04 17:35:00 - [39]
 

Expansions: No. The current system is fine by me. If I ever buy a second account I never have to worry about buying all the expansions to go with it.

Micro-transactions: Maybe. I'd like to see a few ships and modules that are purchasable through CCP but are cheap. $3 for a type of shuttle with a 30m3 cargo hold. $1 for versions of ships with different paint jobs. These are just examples. You get the idea.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.04 18:01:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Terazul

Quote:
WoW- PvP zones and PvP currency. (Not to imply that WoW's market can hold a candle to Eve's.)

Not expansion content. Irrelevant.


New battlegrounds and whatnot are added with expansions.

Quote:
Quote:
Wow- battlegrounds, PvP zones, Tol Barad.

Do they include sovereignty mechanics? If not, no dice.



Yes. Tol Barad specifically. Previous PvP content also provides a buff or ability to gather certain resources to the owner.

Quote:
Quote:
WoW- elemental invasions of capitals during pre-cataclysm build-up. Dev is also on record as saying that Incursions was inspired by UO (or was it EQ?)
Do they include actual rewards? Or are they just events for the sake of having them? For that matter, are they regularly recurring content that players can repeat ad nauseum?


Yes, they had rewards. In WoW the don't get repeated ad nauseum. Are incursions going to last forever? That wouldn't make much sense from an RP view.


Quote:
Quote:
WoW- Rolling a Warlock should come with a subscription to the lube of the month club.

Lawl! This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about


I don't think that you think you quite know what you think you're talking about. I would rank WoW's LFD feature and heroic difficulty overhaul way above Eve's MWDs in missions in terms of relevance. Also, speaking of core mechanics, WoW has sound and a user customizable interface plus a ToS that allows plugins.

Quote:
Oh, and this one is lulzy
Quote:
WoW- You can change your character's appearance at a barber shop.

Seriously. What? Did you just compare a completely new character creation system with brand-new art assets using modern graphics technology to a freakin' barber shop?!


*cough* How often can you see this "brand-new art assets using modern graphics technology" 3d rendered motion enabled avatar? Oh right, just *once* when you initially create your character. After that you're back to a very small 2d jpg.


Quote:
...Yes. Yes, you did. Oh, gawd. My brain. My poor, poor brain. What hast thou done?! Evil or Very Mad


I know that thinking hurts, but try it before posting next time.

Anyhoo, if you want to play up Eve's features I would recommend focusing on the PvP oriented nature of the game, the player driven economy (market, mining, industry,) and the overall sandbox nature of the game.

MWD in Missions isn't a selling point I would use when trying to convince friends to play.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.04 18:17:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

Anyhoo, if you want to play up Eve's features I would recommend focusing on the PvP oriented nature of the game, the player botdriven economy (market, mining, industry,) and the overall sandbox nature of the game.


Laughing

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.02.04 18:35:00 - [42]
 

Screw paying for expansions, lets get CCP to actually reinvest the current eve income on Eve rather than funding meh games that are several years too late. World of Darkness MMO? Some relevance, but about 4-5 years late. Dust? Not looking to come out until right before the next xbox incarnation.

If all expansions received the focus and resources of Apocrypha, we'd have probably broken 500k subs by now and be approaching 600k. Instead the subs have been fairly steady since Dominion and Tyrannis were horrible and Incursions (while nice considering the manpower assigned) could have done a lot more.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.02.04 18:40:00 - [43]
 

What do you do with those that do not pay for expansions?

With vanity stuff like avatars it is easy but what if for example some alliances had paid for Dominion expansion and some others had not?

Not possible in a single sharded world. That's why CCP isn't doing it Cool


Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.02.04 19:20:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 04/02/2011 19:48:06

No, we already pay for the gaming as a service. Yes its a SERVICE, an online PRODUCT. You don't seem to understand gaming as a service model.

Anarchy online has free base game, and PAID for expansions. The expansions have very little customers, the rest just leech in the SAME world from the paying expansion customers and the free customers stay free.

Changing a subscription gaming as a service to a PAID tier model will KILL EVE. Probably a good thing then :) and it will become a SUPPORT NIGHTMARE.

So, go ahead, charge for expansions, I welcome the death of eve :) You seem to forget or not open your eyes when it comes to "already been done" business model and not really taken off. Yes it is everybodies wet dream to copy WoW but it's not going to happen and hasn't happened in the years WoW has been out.

Would you like to have 10 tiers (expansions) of customers? Can you imagine the problems? LOL. They are trying to gain more customers for this MMO SERVICE, not lose them. They are trying to make it more accessible and simplier, not complicate it more.


Do you suggest we have a tier of universe for every expansion? Or, one universe, you pay, the rest of us don't and just take YOUR stuff you paid for :)

CCP cannot even handle one simple universe nevermind one for every expansion or one intertwined with every expansion.

Money isnt the issue, they have 18 Million USD revenue yearly. They will also make a tonne of money from Bloodline changes with PLEXBucks soon.


On top of that during a global recession and based in a country that was made bankrupt by the financial gods, you want to take a huge business risk like this?

Your nuts.


Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.02.04 20:40:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Myra2007 on 04/02/2011 20:53:30
Not really, no. The thing is with the way the eve universe is organized locking people out of future content isn't only technically a problem (or so I would guess) but it also detracts from the eve experience imo. Everything depends on you and you depend on everything.

Not to mention with three accounts that would be another $150 a year. Hell I couldn't even do that if I wanted to.

Regardless looking at other expansions (i.e. rmr or apocrypha or trinity) it's really not realistic to claim that ccp can't afford to make bigger expansion. For whatever reason (probably trying to focus/expand on other projects) they simply didn't devote the ressources this time. Personally I can live with that even though I don't like it. I'm sure the time of bigger expansions will come again.


Ai Shun
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.04 21:59:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Cathy Drall
Of course, all things come at a price. My question thus is: would you want to pay an additional $50 a year for expansions ($25 each) if content and bugfixing would be done faster, more extensive, more balanced and polished, more "excellent" as they are now?


No. I do not pay for bug fixing. That should be done by the developer at no cost to the customer.
And no, I would not pay for content either. EVE has given me a sandbox. I can play in it. I don't want a game that is developed to "feed" me content. That way lies the decline of almost all MMOS; including World of Warcraft.

I would consider a payment for non essential features - like vanity options, this walking in stations crap and so on.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.04 22:07:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 04/02/2011 22:07:43
Originally by: Cathy Drall
Hey all,

As been mentioned in a lot of threads over the past few months, our expansions "at no additional costs" can't always compare positively with expansions in other games. I agree with those with this opinion (perhaps you don't), I'd rather had PI with all the options and tweaking ready and FW fix 7 months ago and Incarna with tattoos and more hairstyles with WiS and bars now.

Of course, all things come at a price. My question thus is: would you want to pay an additional $50 a year for expansions ($25 each) if content and bugfixing would be done faster, more extensive, more balanced and polished, more "excellent" as they are now?

Thanks for reading.

I already pay, why should I pay even more?

also lol@ the idea that throwing money at something will make ot any kind of better Rolling Eyes

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.04 22:21:00 - [48]
 

I don't really find myself wanting to pay for expansions for any game any more. So basically, unless they make the expansions like 5$ each, then no, I don't really want to pay for expansions.

If Eve ever made 40$ expansions like WoW and other games, then I'd quit playing Eve. Pure and simple...

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.02.04 22:40:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Cathy Drall on 04/02/2011 22:41:34

It's a complicated matter, on the one hand I'd like to see things being improved at a faster rate and I have no problems paying for them, on the other hand the question arises what's the best way to do it?

Well we get microtransactions, that's one alternative, not sure if that will generate as much extra income as paid expansions though. And it's never been said that the extra cash will be directly re-invested into improving EVE. Paying for expansions will be a far more tangible way of getting a quality product imo.

Originally by: Magnus Orin
I think the status quo would be the preferable method for the majority of the player-base simply because it is very alt friendly.

If I had a single account, I would probably prefer to spend a bit more once every one or two years for a high quality expansion, but because I have 3 accounts, I would like to see the bi-annual content patch cycle continue.

Yes I also thought of that. Which by the way also proves the point that CCP encourages alt play a lot. The question of limiting game content for non-upgraders is a hard one, although a lot of games have that model. Say you can enter Jove space only if you have the expansion but players who don't have it can still buy the ships and blueprints from you?

@Stoicfaux: thanks for trying to stay objective.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2011.02.04 22:45:00 - [50]
 

The expansion model has a problem with being an obstancle for new players at a point. Needing to buy all kinds of them to start playing isn't very appealing.

However it might be an idea to charge for them up until the next one, and then just charge for that one, so any expansion cost is a flat rate no matter how many there are, and you get them all.

I would be fine with that, providing they are on par with standard MMO expansions in size and quality.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.04 23:21:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula

I would be fine with that, providing they are on par with standard MMO expansions in size and quality.

Somehow I doubt that CCP can deliver an expansion that would be on par with other mmos by amount of content.
People get used to doing nothing(almost) and getting payed for it. Giving them more money so that they would hopefuly do more is a pretty long leap of faith Very Happy

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.04 23:36:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/02/2011 23:40:22
Heh? Isn't one of the reasons for loving Eve is the free expansion?

To be honest, I rather have free expansions and pay higher subscrption fees. Come to think about it, I think Eve is pretty cheap and CCP has been very gentleman like that they have never increased their subscription fees before, considering other things in real life have got more expensive when you compare them on a like for like basis over 8 years.

Also, I think a subscription fee between 20.00 and 25.00 seems fair to me. It is still cheap, that is under 1.00 per day and probably cost the same as 2 or 3 meals outside in the evening. The extra money they get from the fee increase is they can pay for more devs to make the game better.

Alternatively, CCP can streamline their membership fees into platinum, gold, silver and bronze with differing membership prices. Each category gets free gifts each month like free ISKs, ships, Verisign security token, etc. for the privilege of being a member.

On the other hand, there is a caveat. There are talks that Blizzard might be planning to make WoW free for everyone. Not sure how that might affect MMOs as a whole. Maybe they might get money for putting in in-game adverts?

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2011.02.04 23:47:00 - [53]
 

No and the reasons and why MMOs with expansions usually flop:

1. Content cant really change gameplay for non exspansion people.
2. Exspansion needs to give something the regular people want. Like you need exspansion to fly a capital, a T3 etc.
3. They simply make the game worse. You would never see alot of things fixed and made better. Because the focus would just be the next moneymilking exspansion.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:05:00 - [54]
 

Also, I think the topic is about CCP is probably not making enough money as they should so their expansions are below players' expectations.

It is probably that because CCP has not been charging a bit more subscription fees each year, they are unable to progress Eve in a polished and refined way. There is likely to be a loss in revenue because the fee has been stagnant at 15.00.

Assuming Eve has been running over 10 years and if the subscription fee has been increased by compounding it on a year on year with the non-core retail price index of roughly 5%, the table below is the expected fee for each year Eve is running.

Year 1 - 15.75
Year 2 - 16.54
Year 3 - 17.36
Year 4 - 18.23
Year 5 - 19.14
Year 6 - 20.10
Year 7 - 21.11
Year 8 - 22.16
Year 9 - 23.27
Year 10 - 24.43

As you can see, there is a short in the expected revenue and maybe because we are paying a low fee, the game suffers as a consequence. A solution to the OP's concern is to allow the playerbase to be charged the appropriate fee according to the inflation index. That way, the game may get the funding it needs.

Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:07:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Omega Sunset on 05/02/2011 01:03:54
I would not like to see box expansions, micro-payments or f2p here at all.
Most mmo's do that now, and I'm finding my interest in them, at least those that use such systems, has been nullified (have played mmo's over 10 years and muds before that). Included content updates (i.e Incursion etc.) within an mmo sandbox game is golden imo, for a number of reasons.

If I had to buy a bunch of expansions to start, just to have an equal footing/opportunity as the other players had, I probably would have passed on EVE. Pick-up groups/fleets would be irritating when the other members were gimped because they didn't have the latest expansion, making my experience lessened or even putting me into dangerous situations due to their penalty which penalizes me. Really, all retail box expansions seem to do is transform sandbox games into theme park games over time.

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire


Year 1 - 15.75
Year 2 - 16.54
Year 3 - 17.36
Year 4 - 18.23
Year 5 - 19.14
Year 6 - 20.10
Year 7 - 21.11
Year 8 - 22.16
Year 9 - 23.27
Year 10 - 24.43


Some missing factors, primarily operating costs. Far more cost effective to deploy and maintain servers capable of handling mission critical server operations compared to years past. And as far as I know, CCP does not need to re-deploy new/complete servers every year to keep up with performance and demand (apart from maintenance).

Also bandwidth cost becomes increasingly affordable, or at least that has been the trend over the years. Of course bandwidth usage and server demand will probably go up once the new features are implemented with characters being able to walk around - as currently the click-to-move system alone is highly efficient while character walking will be more demanding if done in the traditional wasd mode.

But as it stands, there should be some notable offset with operations against development. Of course at some point, subs will go up, even if just to meet inflationary standards when viable to do so.


Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:27:00 - [56]
 

Is the expansion bug free? Perhaps I'd pay for it.

Is the expansion bound to have bugs-galore that all Eve expansions I've lived through have had? No, I won't pay for that.

Jon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:28:00 - [57]
 

As others have said, EVE requires multiple accounts for 'serious' players, so paid expansions are a non-starter. (5 accounts here, fwiw)

/thread

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:43:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
there are talks that Blizzard might be planning to make WoW free for everyone. Not sure how that might affect MMOs as a whole. Maybe they might get money for putting in in-game adverts?


Maybe after several trillion dollars they just don't care about making money from it anymore?

I'm sure they'll still charge for 'titan', whatever the hell that turns out to be.

Invictra Atreides
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:50:00 - [59]
 

Wow has alot of internal beta testers for the expansions. Unlike EVE where we can join the beta on sisi and tell the devs what is wrong.

Most other games that have paid expansion deploy that as is and you can like it or not. In EVE we got a little bit more control (forum rage nd stuff)

Back to the main topic:
50$ doesn't seem that much. Would be about +4,5$ to the subcription per month. That could bring more content to an expension. But would srsly damage the sandbox gameplay of EVE. CCP has the resources to develope other games in parallel so I would say that $ is not the main reason for the less content. CCP needs to rewrite and redesign the code for futureprof. They build smart not fast!


Ai Shun
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:07:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Also, I think the topic is about CCP is probably not making enough money as they should so their expansions are below players' expectations.


As assets are paid off and the initial development costs recovered; more and more of the monthly fee becomes profit. By the same token you have more and more players entering the game which also boosts the revenue. I don't think money is that serious an issue. But then, I've not looked at their financial statements so I may be very wrong on that count.

If you want to pay them more though nothing is stopping you :)


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