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iudex
Posted - 2011.01.28 15:54:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Yukino Yuu
2. have a little LP reward for belt rats even if its tiny.


This please.

noldevin
Posted - 2011.01.28 15:56:00 - [32]
 

I absolutely love incursions. Once you find a good group to pull fleets from, its smooth sailing, but still challenging. I think the commander vanguard site is probably the easiest vanguard by far though, a fleet of 8 with mostly battleships was still able to crush the frigates fairly easily. The mining one is more difficult.

I think fleets smaller than the optimal size range should receive an increased bonus if they are able to survive and complete the site.

Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.28 16:25:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Mr Cleann on 28/01/2011 16:35:15
The rewards system needs to be redone. Since they are NPC pirates they should all have decent bounties attached to them. Especially since they have become an extremely aggressive faction that has declared war on all empire systems. If in a fleet status the bounties should be evenly divided among the fleet. If you are soloing with a fleet then the individual player gets the bounty for the kills he makes. Loot would be nice as well as more salvage. The rp's need to be handled the same way. Given the amount of ships you can go through the rewards need to match. With them being able to jam (nerf)an entire system it is clear they are using advanced technology. That technology should be able to become loot at some point. Even in real wars, your opponent has a possibility to obtain secret technology that will help their side win or overcome the enemy's technology and weapons.

If not already done. Perhaps if the repair facility or another structure gets popped it removes the nerfings in the system. Anything that can affect an entire system has to be huge. At minimum a station size object. At maximum the size of a small moon.

Cyrus Mierre
The Forsaken Legion
Posted - 2011.01.28 16:27:00 - [34]
 

First of all, don't play with the difficulty. It's a refreshing challenge to come up with non-generic setups.

We completed a vanguard room (Nation commander something? the one containing only frigates) in only 2x RR sacrilege. For all that work (and it was an epic battle) we got 5m isk each and no LPs. Surely completing these rooms with fewer people than is recommended is worthy of the full reward? The alternative is to add random alts to the fleet, just so that each person gets more reward? I really do think that being below the recommended fleet size should not be penalized. The other thing is that with fewer people the room takes longer to complete, meaning that ths isk/hr drops *even* lower

The other thing is that even if we had received the full reward that would have been 15mil for the room Neutral no loot, no real salvage, no bounties. If each ship had regular bounties then that may bring the rewards in line with other occupations, and would also go some way to solving the problem with competing fleets; atm one fleet gets it all while another gets nothing. At least with bounties the 'losing' fleet would get something for their time.

tldr; difficulty spot on, rewards very bad.


Learaths
Posted - 2011.01.28 16:28:00 - [35]
 

The middle ground is missing. The scout sites are trivial for a few BCs.
If you're dumb enough to think that the Scout sites put out within 500% as much DPS as the Vanguard sites your entire 10 man fleet will pop in the first 30 seconds.
Either that or scale Vanguard to Assault the same as Scout to Vanguard, and Assault to Headquarters the same. I figure it should be about 3m dps by the time you hit HQ.

Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.28 16:29:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: iudex
Originally by: Yukino Yuu
2. have a little LP reward for belt rats even if its tiny.


This please.



Or decent sized bounties and or good quantities of non-generic loot and salvage.

The Snowman
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.01.28 16:43:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Shandir
Originally by: The Snowman
Originally by: Kata Amentis
Anything multiplied by zero is zero. This is known as the zero property of multiplication.


Is it? if I have a pound and I multiply it by nothing, I still have my pound. where did it go?


I'm looking for an accountant for my taxes, and you seem to have all the right qualities for the job.
Please contact me in game to discuss Laughing


Hahaha Embarassed
when CCP said that they wanted more "human interaction" I dont think they were expecting this kind of activity ;)

Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.28 16:49:00 - [38]
 

I don't want any loot, bounties, or additional salvage; these forms of income favor soloing the content. If the rewards aren't enough (I think they might be a bit too much for high-sec IMO) then raise the payout for completion so that skilled and coordinated groups still earn the most. If you want do solo or very-small gang PVE there are PLENTY of other, higher-paying options out there for you. This content is aimed at groups and as such the rewards are designed to reward players that work together.

Wolf Spyder
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:00:00 - [39]
 

The current reward system as it stands is seriously lacking. Concord should be doing a lot better as should the various Navies of each sovereignty. Since they clearly outsourced their work they should be handing out far better rewards then they are giving. On a technological level they should be developing and offering modules to help negate the capabilities of the shansha invasion. Weather its in the form of isk, rp's loot or salvage the rewards system needs to match the level of difficulty.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:08:00 - [40]
 

I suspect that part of the problem re the rewards was the borked beacons causing players to keep showing up at missions.

that has hopefully been fixed,

hopefully the payout changes to a "Agro score" ratio system so that if they find that they have inadvertantly nerfed this with future tec that the sights still have payout

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:13:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: ChromeStriker
Make sansha come and find you!! for example:
-misiion type spawns outside stations
-if you clear a gate camp and then stay there... reinforcements come and make it harder
-Have sansha ROAM! fleets of sansha could wonder around a system, around planets, roids, gates ect this could give a chance of a gate camp or belt being a bit more chalenging than people thoughtTwisted Evil




I love this idea. The goal is to make these incursions seem more like actual invasions, disrupting people's lives, supply lines, etc.

It would REALLY be cool if the Sansha would pick a station, and decide to attack it and everything around it. While you're in the station, you can hear the station being bombarded by enemy fire, and when you're outside you'll be targeted unless you're cloaked. But you can see that they're bombarding the station, etc. People can then fend off the station invaders, making the area safe again. Same goes for gates and planets and belts. Anywhere in a system that people go, Sansha should be able to show up.

Even though the Sansha won't ever actually take a station, they would be a big nuisance - enough to form a team of pilots who live there that will defend it.

I want to see Sansha hit Jita too. THAT would be sweet, and I'm sure the players would put up a huge fight, and defend their territory. Even high-sec carebears will defend their holdings when interrupted.

Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:14:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
I don't want any loot, bounties, or additional salvage; these forms of income favor soloing the content. If the rewards aren't enough (I think they might be a bit too much for high-sec IMO) then raise the payout for completion so that skilled and coordinated groups still earn the most. If you want do solo or very-small gang PVE there are PLENTY of other, higher-paying options out there for you. This content is aimed at groups and as such the rewards are designed to reward players that work together.



Great job making your toon look like an Indian.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:17:00 - [43]
 

Oh, and the Sansha going around making life difficult for people should have high bounties and a chance to drop expensive faction salvage. They are tough to beat and they disrupt the normal flow of commerce. I think that would provide adequate risk/reward yet still be an ISK-sink because of the loss of ships, driving up demand and prices out of necessity for defending your enterprise.

I think of Sansha like an NPC wardec, and I think it would be good for people to treat them as such. Provides a common enemy.

PTang
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:26:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: The Snowman
REWARDS!

There shouldnt be ZERO reward if your fleet is too big ffs. there should be .... something! a packet of peanuts.. a lolipop.. something!

I know its asking a lot but some players come in small ships some come in big ships, can you not put something in so that 5 frigates = 1 BS ? maybe we could then use different tactics for completing sites.. swarming with small ships instead of Just battleships + logi.

anyway, thats my only thoughts.


Yeah I agree. I think our scaling outside the "sweet zones" should be better. This is noted and we'll look into it.


Hey hey, be careful there soundwave, the anti blob mechanic is awesome. If you make the rewards higher for bring too many people, then everyone will ust blob the sites.

What he is asking for is that different ship classes count for different points. Which is awesome, do that, don't adjust the sweetspot.

nihlanth
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.28 17:45:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: nihlanth on 28/01/2011 17:49:19
Instead of rewarding the isk and lp to the largest fleet, they should reward it to any and all fleets who are uncloaked within 150km of the mission objective inside the system and have been there for at least 5 minutes and have contributed in some way to fighting or helping the fighters (like RR or commandship bonuses).

This would probably require a new mechanic to combine, or merge fleets without having to disband one of them.

If there are too many players in the site, they could just split the rewards on a linear scale for instance the optimal # of players is 26 (of all combined fleets), but if there are 40 players total, then the rewards for each person would be decreased by 35%, rather than giving no reward at all.


Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:01:00 - [46]
 

Awesome,little tweaks here and there ..don't water it down that is all.

Teneria
Caldari
Sonnenlegion
Smacked Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:17:00 - [47]
 

We have done Vanguards recently with a Armor Hac Logi Setup and it was done smoothly :D

Sites are almost Equal in difficulty, but the Mining Site sucks a litte, because you need to mine this rock wtf km away and fly another wtf km to the refinery to finish the site.

Hardest seems to me override transfer array, because Sanshas there have more dps and mor Logistic on the field.

noldevin
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:24:00 - [48]
 

Please don't change how the fleet mechanics work as far as rewards go. Only one fleet should receive the reward, far too many people attempt to hang out in a site and steal someones reward. Fortunately, they end up disappointed every time.

Forcing fleet merges sucks too because that would almost always bring you over the reward threshold.

Brand Wessa
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:35:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: noldevin
Please don't change how the fleet mechanics work as far as rewards go. Only one fleet should receive the reward, far too many people attempt to hang out in a site and steal someones reward. Fortunately, they end up disappointed every time.

Forcing fleet merges sucks too because that would almost always bring you over the reward threshold.


I think the fleet delivering the most damage should get the largest reward, but there should be some reward to other fleets that made a signficant contribution. Those who just hang around a site should not be rewarded. I'm putting together a proposal for the features and ideas forum that I think provides a fair compromise.



Crazy Renegade
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:36:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Crazy Renegade on 28/01/2011 18:43:12
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
Awesome,little tweaks here and there ..don't water it down that is all.


By all means don't water it down, use weed killer. They are on our turf and they should be the ones that get nerfed. Not us. Concord and the various Navies should be involved also. Preferably on our side. Very Happy

On a serious note. Great job!! Nothing like a good challenge! Just wish the reward system matched better. The rewards don't come close enough when you consider how tough it is to clear them out. Since they are NPC rats they need to have bounties on them that are directed at the player that killed the rat in question. There should also be a way to remove the system wide nerfings, Like destroying the automated repair facility should make it easier to kill the ships. Hacking the device that is placing the nerf on the system should be possible. Realistically speaking a device that is capable of disrupting a system has to be pretty big as well as mobile. it should be able to be attacked and destroyed. it should also be protected by the enemy.

The incursions should happen in entirely random location in a system. like start it in a belt or near a planet, station, POS or Gate. Don't just simply put it in static locations with a minor occurrence in the belts. When they show up it should be in a random spot anywhere in the system. Let the station defenses lend a hand too if they come near a station. This will add a level of realism. Shansha should also be subject to bad reconnaissance information just like the rest of us. Hence the POS and station ideas. Even allow stations to be destroyed like the one in Yulai system. Destroyed but oddly enough it is still usable.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:41:00 - [51]
 

Regarding removing the beacon to help with sites despawning this is good but it won't help despawn sites in asteroid belts in the staging system.

Personally, I'd like to see the 'clear rats from belt' sites to appear throughout the constellation rather than just in the asteroid belt. Quite a few gangs have turned up to constellations and left because there are no sites that are doable with their 3 man gang and the (rightfully) are wary of the risks of joining a larger fleet of people they have no experience.

Also, it would be great to move these kind of lightweight spawns to other bookmarks in the system - Planets, Moons, Customs offices, Stations and Gates.

Of course it would be even more awesome if PI and POS operations would be interrupted by these, but I imagine that making the features talk to each other might be a bit of a stretch. At the very least a planet's customs office might be hard to use simply because there are sansha rats orbiting the customs office. In an ideal world, people with planets or POS's affected by this would get a notification telling them they need to defend their assets.

I understand that Gates probably won't be camped in hi-sec because of the potential for people on autopilot to lose their ships, so, add an option to avoid incursion constellations to the autopilot settings and then let the Sansha loose on the gates. It's possible that trade routes between major hubs may be disrupted leading to effects on the whole of new eden, and that's the kind of thing that would ultimately benefit the game.

Fali
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:42:00 - [52]
 

Just shouting something,

What about reward for the percentage of damage done and for the logistics something like percentage for helping the dps'r.
Something like 100% reward splitted in 50% for one dps and 25% for 2 logistics helping the dps'r. Just thinking from scout point of view.
Obviously the higher the difficulty the more people required and rewards would be spread differently.
Also some loot wouldn't be bad, maybe more Miner I like in the lvl 4's , Wink

Finally, great job on this awesome feature.

Fali

Annasophia Smith
Posted - 2011.01.28 18:57:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Vote Illectro for CSM5! Supporting the New Generation of Eve Players


What will you do for the mining community? I would like to see ice harvesting drones. Or perhaps an combat exhumer dedicated to mining in hostile locations using only mining drones with high slots dedicated to missiles or turrets.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.01.28 19:09:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Annasophia Smith
Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Vote Illectro for CSM5! Supporting the New Generation of Eve Players


What will you do for the mining community? I would like to see ice harvesting drones. Or perhaps an combat exhumer dedicated to mining in hostile locations using only mining drones with high slots dedicated to missiles or turrets.


First thing will be to update my Sig to say CSM6.... I wasn't sure about running.

Truth be told, the CSM can't force CCP to do anything however, if CCP did listen and did exactly as I said I have a list of many things I'd like to see and one of the items near the top of my list is an industry revamp. Mining needs a complete redesign to make it less boring and less macroable, so that you no longer AFK mine, because it's enjoyable. Nerfing the mineral supply from AFK players will increase the rewards for dedicated miners. Similarly we need another round of nerfing mineral input from non-mining sources - i.e. refining mission loot, I published a blog on this subject last year.

However, this is the wrong thread, so I would just like to add that one thing I did like was the effectiveness with which the sansha rats shut down the AFK miners in the constellation. I know it sounds brutal, but seeing all those mining barge wrecks in the belts around agintal really added to the sense that there was a major invasion happening.

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2011.01.28 19:09:00 - [55]
 

I read the bit about the rewards at the end of last night incursion, I think the people should look at what 85,000LP buys you. It ain't chump change.

This is great stuff, group game play has been missing. It is revitalizing me to get manufacturing as the prices of minerals and ships are coming back up...

Thanks you for a gr8 feature!

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.01.28 19:09:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Cresalle
The reward mechanic is poorly thought out and utterly broken. Right now people are running incursions for the novelty value, but when that runs out I can't see why anyone would bother with them apart from large groups swamping them with giant fleets just to get them out of the way.

You can go into a vanguard site with a 10 man fleet and start working it, but then an 20 man fleet can come in and wipe it from under you. Since the oversized fleet did the most damage they are the reward candidates, and since their fleet is oversized nobody gets a reward. I agree with the existing fleet-size ratios. Those should remain as they are. Oversized fleets should get jack **** and possibly an eve mail telling them that they suck. On the other hand the obvious fix of making the smallest eligable fleet get the reward would be gamed immediately. Maybe the only-one-fleet mechanic should be reworked.


I was stuck shooting other players during the incursion, so I didn't get to play around with it. I guess I had expected the incursion to have stages (like missions do). Perhaps with a reward per stage, biggest reward for the last. That way fleets can't ninja in on an incursion site as easily. Especially if CCP stuck some of those long AB drives from entrance to the accel gate. Maybe that's how they are setup. Again, I don't know as I didn't get a chance to fly out and try it.

Originally by: Cresalle
Additionally the risk/reward ratio is very much under-par.


Also why I couldn't convince some corp mates to run down there and run an incursion with me. The carebears make more isk for less effort by grinding a plex.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.01.28 19:13:00 - [57]
 

Ok CCP soundwave here are my thoughts.

1, dont change a thing on fleet scaling and ship values. 20 ships = 20 ships even if it is 20 frigs. FRIGS should not be in there.

2. Love this environment its like pvp but it isnt.

3. Rewards are fine as is. They dont need bounties or anything like that.

4. MAYBE MAYBE... on assaults and bigger, have a random true sansha spawn on occasion

5. Fleet comp, ok i was there with hero fleet on day 1 in the sinq liason region. we have found you need 1 logistics ship for every 5 people. and 1/2 of the dps should be hac or command ships.

6. Honestly I am happy with the way they are. They are a lot of fun and very challenging. If anything make more harder incursions!

7. Finally some sites can have their objectives un-completeable because of griefer/thieves. look into finding a way that non fleet members cant loot them.

Amy Elteam
Posted - 2011.01.28 19:50:00 - [58]
 

Regarding the rewards, my only issue is that the LP store doesn't have much of interest to hi-sec players so I suspect that they'll be selling most of this to other players.

People braved the Sleepers in wormholes for the promise of T3 ships, I think more players might brave the Incursions if there were Concord ships available in the concord LP store. We've seen actors flying concord Battleships, so it can't be too much work to make player usable versions of these and the Concord cruisers.

Shaera Taam
Minmatar
Minmatar Death Squad
Broken Chains Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.28 19:57:00 - [59]
 

first, i want to say that i have not yet tackled an incursion, so i cannot speak to them first-hand. i have, however, been following much of the chatter on the channels and the forums... and it is this what leads me to the conclusion that i should not be tackling an incursion, yet, haha.

my only input is simple and quite general... i'd like to see three things come of the nation's invasion of new eden, when the feature is truly mature and balanced:

1) incursion content that is accessible to a group of first year chars... but not solo content!
tough belt rats, station assaults, maybe even a random sansha bubble camp about 1000km off station along the line to a gate / other station... these kind of things would allow several corpies to quickly fleet up and meet the threat in a coordinated fashion without /requiring/ logis and a multiple BS fleet, things that most 1st years dont have a lot of exp with...

2) long term effects of the nation's invasion!
put simply, if people get bored of incursions or find them too hard on the average isk wallet, they're going to get ignored / flown around. if / when this happens, have there be a lasting effect on that constellation and the surrounding systems. my favorite option is a sec rating hit... have the system containing the hardest sites (HQ?) suddenly go null and be very hostile to player structures! the surrounding systems with easier sites suddenly register on maps as low sec, with similar hostility to player occupants! lastly, put a 0.1 or 0.2 sec rating hit to all systems surrounding that constellation! imagine the fun if the incursion next door to rens (or jita!) were ignored for too long? ...and when the threat finally gets cleared, the sec ratings return *slowly*... see? lasting consequences!

3) give us a true sansha incursion endgame.
something that will keep the nation from threatening our children or grandchildren. something that will keep our eyes on the prize, something that will keep us devoted to their utter and complete destruction. something beyond mere concord lp's and some fast-spent isk...
do we need to find their wormholes into k-space and strike back thru them, destroying some kind of infrastructure? something that gives the nation the power they wield so effectively?
or is there an established 100 clones of master kuvekei (sp? sry!) randomly distributed throughout new eden that must be tracked down and turned into a rapidly expanding clouds of superheated organic molecules, all within a few days of each other? ...else the clone number starts climbing up to 100 again... [cue evil laughter]

that's pretty much it... im hoping to get some fellow corpies together soon and tackle one of these and get some true, first-hand knowledge and exp with the incursions, so dont worry, i wont be a clueless couch-warrior for long! these were just some ideas i had, gleaned from talking with a few and listening to a bunch of my fellow capsuleers.

thx, ccp, for bringing us such a challenge...

ST

mkmin
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:05:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: mkmin on 28/01/2011 20:05:35
The region name on the global report would be nice. Also the journal takes focus every time you jump, even if you've only got it open for curiosity.


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