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blankseplocked Incursions, shield buffer vs signature bloat?
 
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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.01.27 18:40:00 - [1]
 

I'm a bit confused by anti-Incursion fit theory...

On the one hand, the advice is to fit for buffer tank, because repping should be left to logistics ships. So no passive regen, no active tank. Just metric assloads of HP.

On the other hand, the Sansha Incursion rats are said to fire torpedoes in huge amounts. This suggests keeping a low profile, with regards to signature radius. And shield buffer causes sig radius to bloat.

I just tried to EFT a buffer tanked Caracal, and its signature radius swelled from 145m to 225m. I had hoped it'd turn out to be only something like +30m sig or so, but those LSEII are really painful on a cruiser-sized ship. And extender rigs don't help either.

Of course once I get the hang of things I'll upgrade to a Cerberus or Navy Caracal, but the principle is the same. Fitting for buffer makes me more vulnerable to rat torpedoes.

What to do? What fitting principles to go by?

Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
Posted - 2011.01.27 18:41:00 - [2]
 

It is silly. Adding more HP but taking more damage. In the end, it's still worth it, but considering how much more damage you take it's a far cry from armor plates, which just reduce your speed and agility. For PvE anyways, it's way better to armor buffer tank.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.27 22:14:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 27/01/2011 22:15:25
Originally by: Drakarin
For PvE anyways, it's way better to armor buffer tank.


Only for Incursions. This is after shield tanking being the undisputed PvE king for years. In other news, shield BSes (Maelstroms) are the new FOTM in large fleets.

We have now entered the Twilight Zone in New Eden.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.27 22:34:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Target Painter

Only for Incursions. This is after shield tanking being the undisputed PvE king for years. In other news, shield BSes (Maelstroms) are the new FOTM in large fleets.

We have now entered the Twilight Zone in New Eden.


Actually they are FOTM because of artillery, not because of shields

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.01.27 23:05:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: FlameGlow
Originally by: Target Painter

Only for Incursions. This is after shield tanking being the undisputed PvE king for years. In other news, shield BSes (Maelstroms) are the new FOTM in large fleets.

We have now entered the Twilight Zone in New Eden.


Actually they are FOTM because of artillery, not because of shields

Between drakes and maelstroms being FOTM, there's a whole lot of shield tanking happening in fleets when there used to be none.

M'ktakh
Posted - 2011.01.27 23:27:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Between drakes and maelstroms being FOTM, there's a whole lot of shield tanking happening in fleets when there used to be none.


And that is a problem? About high time that armour tanking got a competitor. Now, if CCP would fix shield RR....


Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.28 01:06:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 28/01/2011 01:08:36
Edited by: Target Painter on 28/01/2011 01:07:24
Originally by: FlameGlow
Actually they are FOTM because of artillery, not because of shields


IT is (was?) seriously using Shield Apocs with lasers. ugh

Originally by: Cambarus
Between drakes and maelstroms being FOTM, there's a whole lot of shield tanking happening in fleets when there used to be none.


Anyone else remember a year ago, when everyone said shield tanking would never be used in battleship fleets?

Adapt or die.

Originally by: M'ktakh
Now, if CCP would fix shield RR...


(assuming you mean RRBS gangs, since both shield and armor logis are well-balanced)

CCP "fixed" the disparity between armor RR and shield RR when they added an AoE weapon for bombers. Now both are utterly unthinkable when a relative handful of competently flown SBs can destroy dozens or hundreds of battleships.


Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.28 07:42:00 - [8]
 

Ask Defiant if those clowns are even still around Laughing

Xituqtra
Posted - 2011.01.28 08:43:00 - [9]
 

shield is great for incursions as they give shield at beginning of cycle wich kicks more ass then at the end when your ship could have melted already

Ganandorf
Posted - 2011.01.28 09:26:00 - [10]
 

indeed shield apocs are used aswell because you need the lows for TE's to get the neccesary range on pulses,

tbh maelstroms are used because of artillery and not because of shield, since the rokh would have a way better shield tank but rails suck =)

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2011.01.28 09:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ganandorf
indeed shield apocs are used aswell because you need the lows for TE's to get the neccesary range on pulses,

tbh maelstroms are used because of artillery and not because of shield, since the rokh would have a way better shield tank but rails suck =)
Arty Rokh?

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.28 10:10:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Ganandorf
indeed shield apocs are used aswell because you need the lows for TE's to get the neccesary range on pulses,


ugh There are such things as Tracking Computers. They are like a TE, but go in the mids.

Quote:
tbh maelstroms are used because of artillery and not because of shield, since the rokh would have a way better shield tank but rails suck =)


Regardless of the reason, this time last year, no one in all of New Eden would seriously suggest using shield battleships as a fleet comp. As recently as two weeks ago, no one would suggest armor tanking > shield tanking for PvE.

It was mocking the people who have extremely short memories.

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.01.28 10:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Ganandorf
indeed shield apocs are used aswell because you need the lows for TE's to get the neccesary range on pulses,


ugh There are such things as Tracking Computers. They are like a TE, but go in the mids.

Quote:
tbh maelstroms are used because of artillery and not because of shield, since the rokh would have a way better shield tank but rails suck =)


Regardless of the reason, this time last year, no one in all of New Eden would seriously suggest using shield battleships as a fleet comp. As recently as two weeks ago, no one would suggest armor tanking > shield tanking for PvE.

It was mocking the people who have extremely short memories.


+1 for hull tanking be the new 'done thing'

Mavnas
Posted - 2011.01.28 14:55:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Mavnas on 28/01/2011 14:55:21
Originally by: ChromeStriker
+1 for hull tanking be the new 'done thing'


Well hull tanking...

Pros:

-It takes one mod to hit 60% omni-resists with no holes

Cons:

-Umm... everything else.

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.28 15:30:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 28/01/2011 16:02:50
Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 28/01/2011 15:45:40

As we fly with a mixed Caldari/Minmatar fleet we decided to use a full shield setup for all ships including remote-shield-rep suport.

After our first test I must say, you need a buffer as you will get hugh amounts of damage sometimes and without enough buffer your suport might not be able to bumb enough shield if your buffer is to low.

Aming ~10000k shield/armor with 75%++ omni resitences is ok for highsec Incursion. Cruiser need less buffer as they use signature as "buffer", battle ships need FAR more buffer.

For a drake as excample this means 1 LSE, 1 AB, rest resitences for your med slots. Try passive resitences first as losing resitences after a NEUT-attack from Sanshas isn't funny ;).

[Drake, Incursion with logistics]

Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
10MN Afterburner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Sure, you get more resitences with more invus ... BUT as I said you might be NEUTed to hell and then you would lose to much and die even faster. Worst resitenc is Explo with just 77% (all V skills).



PS: full fit
[Drake, Incursion remote shield fleet]
-->> Damage Control II <<-- you realy want it!!
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay

Large Shield Extender II
10MN Afterburner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II

-->> Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter <<-- not T2 !!!

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Cyclone, Incursion remote shield fleet]
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Medium Energy Transfer Array II

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

This fit is tested and with 5+ man fleets you still do enough (enough, not great *g*) damage, to finish highsec Icursions.

Ikarus Gaul
Gallente
Eiffel Initiatives
Posted - 2011.01.28 15:52:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
In other news, shield BSes (Maelstroms) are the new FOTM in large fleets.



Actually, so are Armor-tanked Scorpions. If you haven't tried having a few when running incursions, you should.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.29 09:32:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ikarus Gaul
Actually, so are Armor-tanked Scorpions. If you haven't tried having a few when running incursions, you should.


I roll with shields on Incursions. And armor-tanking Scorpions has been done for years.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2011.01.29 11:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Ikarus Gaul
Actually, so are Armor-tanked Scorpions. If you haven't tried having a few when running incursions, you should.


I roll with shields on Incursions. And armor-tanking Scorpions has been done for years.


Well it actually used to be better then, because jammers worked differently and if you didn't fit a plate and ENAMs, you were pretty much going out with empty lows...


 

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