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blankseplocked [Proposal] Say NO to probeable wrecks!
 
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.28 12:51:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Bunyip
If the wrecks are not probable in a deadspace area, but only in normal space (such as when turning in a mission)



^This


I would support this proposal.

It's hard enough trying to persaude people that it's possible to PvE outside of hi-sec as it is without making any mission or plex site trivially probeable.

For the record, in case it wasn't clear, under these conditions I'm totally okay with wrecks being probeable.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.01.28 14:26:00 - [32]
 

A number of posters here may be getting confused with their support not tallying with their comments.

The thread title is
Quote:
Say NO to probeable wrecks!

Supporting this thread does not mean you support probeable wrecks.

I feel that it is a nice idea, but it would make ganking mission runners even easier so needs to be approached with a lot of caution.

Wolodymyr
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:43:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Wolodymyr on 29/01/2011 08:23:22
I am up for ganking mission runners. Also probable wrecks would be awesome because salvaging would be a valid career. Also they'd have to let you tractor beam wrecks that weren't yours.

Swynet
State War Academy

Posted - 2011.01.28 23:05:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Serra Polaris
Well personally I don't think unprobeable ships should even be possible to begin with. As for the major benefits though, it makes salvaging an actual profession and probably helps reduce lag or something when all those wrecks are cleared.


You already had combat probes to eliminate an entire poulation from low sec that it's not under big alliances boots/protection.

Haven't you donne enough to destroy a big bit of the game for a great number of EVE players?


Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.01.29 05:37:00 - [35]
 

Agreed on Saying No. There's no upside to this.

-in hi-sec, you allow people to circumvent unprobable ships for ninja looting and ganking. Even if its just used for abandoned mission fields, you'll increase salvage supply and depress prices.

-in lowsec, you have just finally killed level 5s. You also make scanning small ships like frigs trivial.

-I don't think it would add anything to null either.

As for nothing should be unprobable, I don't see anyone here extending that to cloaked ships. I think having to train for a t3 cruiser and gear it to do so is a pretty steep cost for limited utility.

CarnegieSteel
Posted - 2011.01.29 07:53:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Centri Sixx


As for nothing should be unprobable, I don't see anyone here extending that to cloaked ships. I think having to train for a t3 cruiser and gear it to do so is a pretty steep cost for limited utility.


Thats because while cloaked, you cant do anything. Being unprobable skews the risk/reward ration by a huge amount. (All the way to 0 in fact, assuming a proper fit.) You can run level 5s in lowsec all day long without any fear of being ganked.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.29 07:54:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Centri Sixx
Agreed on Saying No. There's no upside to this.

-in hi-sec, you allow people to circumvent unprobable ships for ninja looting and ganking. Even if its just used for abandoned mission fields, you'll increase salvage supply and depress prices.

-in lowsec, you have just finally killed level 5s. You also make scanning small ships like frigs trivial.

-I don't think it would add anything to null either.

As for nothing should be unprobable, I don't see anyone here extending that to cloaked ships. I think having to train for a t3 cruiser and gear it to do so is a pretty steep cost for limited utility.

Seems like you support the proposal. :) Please click 'agree' button if you do.

Serra Polaris
Posted - 2011.01.29 08:10:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei

I'm glad you guys actually spell it out like this, because I believe the support probeable wrecks is getting has never truly been about salvaging, but about the ulterior (or maybe not so ulterior) motive of having a way to find unprobeable mission runners.



It's not an ulterior motive for me. I want wrecks to be probeable for salvaging. I don't care if they are only probeable after the mission has been finished. I would definitely consider picking up salvaging as a profession if this was implementing. Removing unprobeable ships is just a good side effect IMO.

But seriously I haven't read a decent argument as to why level 4's and level 5's should be able to be run in low/null with zero risk, regardless of what fit you are using.




Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.01.29 08:22:00 - [39]
 

probing a wreck should only be possible after mission is completed
OR
wreck has been in space for more then 30 minutes ( 1 hour in highsec and lowsec)

this means
nullsec battles and missions can be salvaged maybe
lowsec missions can be salvaged
highsec missions can be salvaged

all by a third party that was not in fleet and did not scan the original ship down. it would be a profession that isnt lolninjanub.
it would be like a junker, maybe one who follows nullsec blobs in a cloaked ship to take the loot from a roam or salvage a large cap battle

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.01.29 15:05:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: CarnegieSteel
Originally by: Centri Sixx


As for nothing should be unprobable, I don't see anyone here extending that to cloaked ships. I think having to train for a t3 cruiser and gear it to do so is a pretty steep cost for limited utility.


Thats because while cloaked, you cant do anything. Being unprobable skews the risk/reward ration by a huge amount. (All the way to 0 in fact, assuming a proper fit.) You can run level 5s in lowsec all day long without any fear of being ganked.


The problem is that probing skews the risk ratio so far the other way that it's not worth doing any mission in lowsec otherwise. So it's a choice between content getting done, or content getting ignored.

You are not going to get people to increase risk by making their ships probable, you just are going to send them back to hisec.

Quote:
It's not an ulterior motive for me. I want wrecks to be probeable for salvaging. I don't care if they are only probeable after the mission has been finished. I would definitely consider picking up salvaging as a profession if this was implementing. Removing unprobeable ships is just a good side effect IMO.

But seriously I haven't read a decent argument as to why level 4's and level 5's should be able to be run in low/null with zero risk, regardless of what fit you are using.


Why should being able to salvage battleship class rats have no risk at all? Everyone is talking about mission runner risk, but mission salvaging, ninja or not, has so very little risk its not even funny.

You don't need to scan wrecks down in hisec: find a busy system with miners, and salvage the wrecks they leave. Or get some stones, and head out to a lowsec system to salvage the aftermath of militia battles.

Increasing the ability to probe down mission salvage is just boosting the payout of salvagers while making it have zero risk. You don't even need to worry about rats. Salvaging is tuned as a beginning, low-sp profession. The changes to probing made it insanely lucrative with zero risk, and changing it even more in that way is being hypocritical, especially when claiming risk/reward otherwise.


Manalapan
Dynasty Banking
General Tso's Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.29 18:30:00 - [41]
 

The issue here is not that they are trying to do whatever against the mission runner.

The issue here is that there is a large portion of mission runners that complete the mission turn it in and move on without ever looting and salvaging. Lag would be reduced if in these situations if players could probe out the wrecks and clean them up.

Also, it does not really makes sense that you can probe out a battleship but not a battleship wreck because it would still be large.

Serra Polaris
Posted - 2011.01.29 22:02:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Centri Sixx

Why should being able to salvage battleship class rats have no risk at all? Everyone is talking about mission runner risk, but mission salvaging, ninja or not, has so very little risk its not even funny.



Every pve high sec profession is risk-free if you know what you are doing, including mission running. If you want the benefits low/null provides over high sec then you need to accept the risk involved.

Originally by: Centri Sixx

You don't need to scan wrecks down in hisec: find a busy system with miners, and salvage the wrecks they leave. Or get some stones, and head out to a lowsec system to salvage the aftermath of militia battles.



Salvaging high sec belt rats would of course probably be the lowest paying profession in eve, which is why I used to probe down mission runners back when I was in high sec. The advantage of being able to probe down wrecks in high sec is to clean up the system of abandoned wrecks.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.29 22:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Serra Polaris
Originally by: Centri Sixx

Why should being able to salvage battleship class rats have no risk at all? Everyone is talking about mission runner risk, but mission salvaging, ninja or not, has so very little risk its not even funny.



Every pve high sec profession is risk-free if you know what you are doing, including mission running. If you want the benefits low/null provides over high sec then you need to accept the risk involved.

Originally by: Centri Sixx

You don't need to scan wrecks down in hisec: find a busy system with miners, and salvage the wrecks they leave. Or get some stones, and head out to a lowsec system to salvage the aftermath of militia battles.



Salvaging high sec belt rats would of course probably be the lowest paying profession in eve, which is why I used to probe down mission runners back when I was in high sec. The advantage of being able to probe down wrecks in high sec is to clean up the system of abandoned wrecks.


Because clean full plexes in Caps and Super Caps is not risk free?
Are you going to start with the same stupid arguments that High sec is risk free and profit? are you kidding or just stupid?

You know whow mutch you can do al allone with one cap in a single plex? Do you ever learn maths or even donne them to come out here saying all that crap?

Where is your risk when you salvage? What risk do you ever take anyway?
-you don't bring any value or reasonable argument to your opinion, the only thing you are able to throw out is mission runnes = risk free, you don't have a clue of what you are talking about or just trying to convince noobs.

People like you have already done a good job with los sec genocide of carebeers, you whant to contiue. Your game must be so fun.

Ronan Connor
Posted - 2011.01.29 22:39:00 - [44]
 

I'd support probeable wrecks, when they have been abandoned. Otherwise abandoning mission wrecks would be wasted.

Probing wrecks which are not abandoned I don't support. Ninja salvager shall work for their benefits.

Serra Polaris
Posted - 2011.01.29 23:30:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Swynet

Because clean full plexes in Caps and Super Caps is not risk free?
Are you going to start with the same stupid arguments that High sec is risk free and profit? are you kidding or just stupid?

You know whow mutch you can do al allone with one cap in a single plex? Do you ever learn maths or even donne them to come out here saying all that crap?

Where is your risk when you salvage? What risk do you ever take anyway?
-you don't bring any value or reasonable argument to your opinion, the only thing you are able to throw out is mission runnes = risk free, you don't have a clue of what you are talking about or just trying to convince noobs.

People like you have already done a good job with los sec genocide of carebeers, you whant to contiue. Your game must be so fun.



First, calm down. Your sudden surge of insults and typos show me you need to relax a bit.

I've never flown caps or known anyone who has, so I can't really comment on that part. However, doing pve in caps means you are in null/low sec and have the ability to be attacked at anytime with no provocation, so it is more riskier than doing pve in high sec.

As for high sec pve, assuming you know what you are doing:
Mining is risk free. Fit a shield booster and bring drones or mine in systems where rats don't spawn.

Mission running is risk free. Once you've run a mission once you should never have a problem with it again. You also have the option to avoid missions you know are very difficult. I've lost only one battleship running level 4's in high sec, and it was when I first started and did not have enough sp/experience to run them.

Ninja salvaging is also risk free. You have no clue what mission you will be salvaging, but the mission runner is usually taking full aggro.

Now if you want the extra lp and rewards given by missions set in low/null, then you need to be willing to accept the higher risk involved. It has nothing to do with removing "carebears" from low sec. Besides, bringing a ton of unprobeable carebears into low sec is about as helpful as having none there at all.


Corian Teranos
Caldari
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries
Preatoriani
Posted - 2011.01.30 02:12:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Corian Teranos on 30/01/2011 02:14:02
i will now support this as i do not wish to be flying a mission and have a random noctis warp in and steal my loot.

however since you can now bandon wrecks there is no reason that i should not be able to shoot said noctis when it tries to salvage my wrecks.


not supported if it will help ninja salvagers


supported if i can get kill rights on said ninja salvagers

on a side not why not make abandoned wrecks probable while claimed wrecks remain un probeble

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.30 18:01:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: CarnegieSteel
Thats because while cloaked, you cant do anything.
Wait what? Gathering intel means nothing to you? Being able to pick and choose who to engage while being undocked means nothing to you? Being able to halt PVE ops in a system is nothing to you?

IF you are for making unprobable ships probable then by extension it should also apply to cloaked ships.


Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.01.30 20:31:00 - [48]
 

I don't support being able to probe down wrecks but for an entirely in-game/character reason. Wrecks do not emit any power signals for probes to 'lock on' to so it would not make sense to be able to scan them down with probes.

Fournone
Posted - 2011.01.31 03:11:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Anything in space should be probable.

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.01.31 04:27:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Serra Polaris
Originally by: Centri Sixx

Why should being able to salvage battleship class rats have no risk at all? Everyone is talking about mission runner risk, but mission salvaging, ninja or not, has so very little risk its not even funny.



Every pve high sec profession is risk-free if you know what you are doing, including mission running. If you want the benefits low/null provides over high sec then you need to accept the risk involved


Ninja salvage? Cheap scanning frig or dessie. Only risk is the missioner running out and you not being fast enough to warp out too. Loss? Cheap ship.

That's much less investment than training a BS to run level 4s for a lot more proportional reward. Yes, L4s are safe too, but there's little reason to buff either l4s or ninja salvaging.


Originally by: Centri Sixx

You don't need to scan wrecks down in hisec: find a busy system with miners, and salvage the wrecks they leave. Or get some stones, and head out to a lowsec system to salvage the aftermath of militia battles.



Salvaging high sec belt rats would of course probably be the lowest paying profession in eve, which is why I used to probe down mission runners back when I was in high sec. The advantage of being able to probe down wrecks in high sec is to clean up the system of abandoned wrecks.


That's because it's one of the lowest sp requirement professions as well. But you are making no sense with this: if all you want to do is clear abandoned wrecks, why should the cost matter?

Serra Polaris
Posted - 2011.01.31 11:21:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Serra Polaris

Salvaging high sec belt rats would of course probably be the lowest paying profession in eve, which is why I used to probe down mission runners back when I was in high sec. The advantage of being able to probe down wrecks in high sec is to clean up the system of abandoned wrecks.


Originally by: Centri Sixx

That's because it's one of the lowest sp requirement professions as well. But you are making no sense with this: if all you want to do is clear abandoned wrecks, why should the cost matter?


Well I don't want to be making 1 mil isk an hour cleaning up belt wrecks. As for clearing up the system, the amount of belt wrecks is nothing compared to the amount of wrecks left behind in deadspace.

equincu ocha
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.01.31 13:20:00 - [52]
 

I believe that everything in space should be probable, even the unprobable T3's, However I also feel that it should be extraordinarily hard to do so if the ship is set up right.

Why not introduce a new type of probe that take very high skills and special implants to use, and only usefull after you get your 99.9% (or whatever it is) hit on the ship/wreck with normal probes, maybe even having to use 15-20 of them and have a longer cycle time but shorter lifespan, hell maybe even forcing to have the probes within 250km of the target so they show up on your overview.

The point is that everything would be probable but it wouldn't be reasonable to actually catch that T3 unless the pilot is a complete failure (maybe i assume to much there), and in that case he would deserve to lose his ship.

Everyone would be happy, pirates like me that would like the ability to probe out everything regardless how futile the effort may be, and carebears that would still be relitively safe in low and null missioning away.

Conjugate Momenta
Posted - 2011.03.13 13:51:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: equincu ocha

Why not introduce a new type of probe that take very high skills and special implants to use, and only usefull after you get your 99.9% (or whatever it is) hit on the ship/wreck with normal probes, maybe even having to use 15-20 of them and have a longer cycle time but shorter lifespan, hell maybe even forcing to have the probes within 250km of the target so they show up on your overview.



Which skill lets you launch 15-20 probes?

Gimmy Rotten
Posted - 2011.03.13 19:11:00 - [54]
 

NO

Elisa Vilerum
Posted - 2011.03.13 20:27:00 - [55]
 

lol no to horid lazy people wanting easy isk.

Kumi Katana
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.14 05:30:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
What's this I hear about the CSM wanting to make wrecks probeable?! I'm very much against that! Because it makes running missions in unprobeable ship meaningless!


I sure don't want to do that, the first thing goons will do is probe and steal from your wrecks. Which on turn causes aggro and loss of your ship even if you didn't do anything. Anyways, this will be a VERY bad thing for the capsuleers that just start out. Any 1.0 space mission will be a death trap in no time making it nearly impossible to do anything without having some goon swarming around you like a fly to sh**...Rolling Eyes

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2011.03.14 08:34:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Zilberfrid on 14/03/2011 08:36:20
Eve is in part about risk versus reward.

What is the risk in engaging a PVE ship already in combat with a specific PVP ship? The only risk now, is that you might lose a bit of time probing for someone, the risk that person has is in part because of the fitting choices needed, (no drones, can't fight angels, vulnerable to neuting, shield mods often increase sig, lose a few mods) and in part the travel, where you can gank to your heart's delight.

This counters 1 mod, the risk of adding that mod is not in relation to the reward gained by it.

I also fly unprobable ships sometimes, but they are not t3, it is possible, though the fitting is very harsh then.


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