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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 27/01/2011 16:55:53

If the new NPC AI is just going do omni-damage and omni-tank all damage types the same what is the point of having different damage types at all? There is none, it negates the whole point of having differences.

Incursion rats, Sansha now, whatever in the future, should still retain some semblance of their traditional damage types and tanking weakness variations.

/rant.

Quote:
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:32 ] (combat) Your Thunderbolt Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:32 ] (combat) Your Scourge Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:33 ] (combat) Your Havoc Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:38 ] (combat) Your Thunderbolt Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:39 ] (combat) Your Scourge Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:39 ] (combat) Your Havoc Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:44 ] (combat) Your Thunderbolt Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:45 ] (combat) Your Scourge Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:46 ] (combat) Your Havoc Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:51 ] (combat) Your Thunderbolt Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:51 ] (combat) Your Scourge Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:52 ] (combat) Your Havoc Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:57 ] (combat) Your Thunderbolt Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:58 ] (combat) Your Scourge Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:47:58 ] (combat) Your Havoc Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:48:03 ] (combat) Your Thunderbolt Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:48:04 ] (combat) Your Scourge Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.
[ 2011.01.27 16:48:04 ] (combat) Your Havoc Heavy Missile hits Raa Thalamus, doing 64.5 damage.


Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:40:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
/rant.

Agreed.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:41:00 - [3]
 

Op died, got hit by 'KARMA' damage type for Self Inflicted PERFECT STRIKE.

Ikarus Gaul
Gallente
Eiffel Initiatives
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:43:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
...rant...



Well, reduction to one damage type would certainly save on tanking slots! ;-)

Beckie Dorne
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:43:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Beckie Dorne on 26/01/2011 19:46:36
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 26/01/2011 19:40:12
If the new NPC AI is just going do omni-damage and omni-tank all damage the dame what is the point of having different damage types at all? There is none, it negates the whole point of having differences.

Incursion rats, Sansha now, whatever in the future, should still retain some semblance of their traditional damage types and tanking variations.

/rant.



obvious troll is obvious. Since when do you only tank for 1 dmg type for pvp?

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.01.26 20:11:00 - [6]
 

I was under the impression that they do retain traditional damage types. As in their lasers do EM/therm and their missiles do kin/expl damage. Also, the omni tank doesn't have to mean every resist is identical. It just means they don't have any obvious holes in their resists, which is the logical way to tank any PvP ship.

This has the added benefit of forcing people doing those sites to use fits, that are more viable in PvP. This way no race is gimped doing those sites and doing them doesn't render your fleet so vulnerable to PvP fitted ships as normal PvE fits would. Basicly they seem to be intentionally designed to be efficiently doable in ships, that don't have strong PvP handicaps.

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2011.01.26 20:24:00 - [7]
 

I havent done any incursion. But if Incursion Sanshas omni tank and omni damages. Then its really bugged. They should do like regular sanshas so to say. I could understand the sleeper thing since it was new. But this is just plain wrong.

Multiple damage types/resists are good. Hell I might wish we even add one more type.

But stay to the storyline so to say. And not just omni everything with insane damage because they cant code a useful AI.

Beckie Dorne
Posted - 2011.01.26 20:38:00 - [8]
 

but they have been upgraded by the jovians dont forget. they not regular sansha.

Flybiere
Gallente
Intergalactic Shrimp Emporium
Posted - 2011.01.26 23:10:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Shintai
I havent done any incursion.


So don't comment until you have.

Also, if you were say, doing a low sec incursion and you only had to tank EM and thermal, whats to stop some caldari bastard warping in and cluster ****ing your fleet with missiles?

We had a brutal Vanguard incursion tonight. Took over an hour because we fleeted with noobs who didn't know how to focus fire on a single target. Geeze...

/rant

Olthel
Posted - 2011.01.26 23:15:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Shintai
I havent done any incursion. But if Incursion Sanshas omni tank and omni damages. Then its really bugged. They should do like regular sanshas so to say. I could understand the sleeper thing since it was new. But this is just plain wrong.

Multiple damage types/resists are good. Hell I might wish we even add one more type.

But stay to the storyline so to say. And not just omni everything with insane damage because they cant code a useful AI.


Magic damage.

Xituqtra
Posted - 2011.01.27 00:19:00 - [11]
 

if sansha would only deal em/therm damage and there resist hole would be em/therm like normal sansha gues what ships would be used most?

Yes correct amarr ships with there em/therm damage and great em/therm tanks. Now would that be good?

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.01.27 00:31:00 - [12]
 

have you ever done pvp with omni incoming damage? Why wouldn't the Sansha adapt, I have no issue if they have frigs which do therm, and some frigs which do exp, etc, model after all the races if you want, but predictable shouldn't be part of it.

Saint Lazarus
Pwn 'N Play
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.27 00:41:00 - [13]
 

Whats so unbeliveable about Sansha learning to plug the massive holes in their tank?....


Incursion would be too easy if it was just EM/Therm and another person pointed out it would make Amarr over powered against them so as to make it harder for every other race. Be unfair

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.01.27 00:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
If the new NPC AI is just going do omni-damage and omni-tank all damage types the same what is the point of having different damage types at all? There is none, it negates the whole point of having differences.


Besides, are you SURE they have absolutely IDENTICAL resistances ? In all four resists ? As opposed to slight variations but without any gaping holes like regular NPCs ? And are you also sure they all deal exactly the same average damage on all resists regardless of your speed or signature size ? Really ?
I'm going to guess that the answers are mostly "no".

Also, EVEN IF by some miracle the answers would actually be mostly "yes" (which is extremely doubtful, but hey, I've seen stranger things happen):
[sarcasm]
OBVIOUSLY having the NPCs telegraph their punches and having glowy weakspots is the whole point of having NPCs at all in the first place, so yeah, you're right, there's no point in having any NPCs without obvious weaknesses and without easy ways to defend against them solo.
[/sarcasm]

A-duuuuh!

Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
Posted - 2011.01.27 00:58:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:06:48
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:06:05
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:02:23
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
have you ever done pvp with omni incoming damage? Why wouldn't the Sansha adapt, I have no issue if they have frigs which do therm, and some frigs which do exp, etc, model after all the races if you want, but predictable shouldn't be part of it.



Show me a fit for a frigate, bomber, cruiser and battleship that can:
- Omnitank with epic resists
- Omnidamage with epic DPS
- Oh, and remember they must have Neuts, RR, MWD, web and scram

I don't have a problem with rats being harder as long as it makes sense. Like instead of omnidamage, omnitank. Half of them do EM/Thermal, the other half Exp/Kin.

AFAIK, you can omnitank at the cost of buffer or DPS but sleepers and incursion sanshas don't seem to have that problem Rolling Eyes

Also, pvp dudes: have you ever been in a battle where you primary a frig or bomber you can't blowup because of RR? Shocked

btw: i still can't figure out a battleship fit that can one-shot a drone from 100km away like sleepers do Rolling Eyes


Rin Vires
Gallente
RinCorp
Posted - 2011.01.27 01:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fearless M0F0
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:02:23
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
have you ever done pvp with omni incoming damage? Why wouldn't the Sansha adapt, I have no issue if they have frigs which do therm, and some frigs which do exp, etc, model after all the races if you want, but predictable shouldn't be part of it.



Show me a fit for a frigate, bomber, cruiser and battleship that can:
- Omnitank with epic resists
- Omnidamage with epic DPS
- Oh, and remember the RR and MWD too

I don't have a problem with rats being harder as long as it makes sense. Like instead of omnidamage, omnitank. Half of them do EM/Thermal, the other half Exp/Kin.

AFAIK, you can omnitank at the cost of buffer or DPS but sleepers and incursion sanshas don't seem to have that problem Rolling Eyes

Also, pvp dudes: have you ever been in a battle where you primary a frig or bomber you can't blowup because of RR? Shocked

btw: i still can't figure out a battleship fit that can one-shot a drone from 100km away like sleepers do Rolling Eyes




Don't forget about the Neuts, ECM, Webs, and Scrams. I wish my faction ships had 10/10/10 slots...

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2011.01.27 01:15:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 27/01/2011 01:17:33
Seems that people can't figure out that sancha's lasers can use Multifrequency too. Funny

Sancha"s will own you Laughing on your knees right now for your new masters!

RichtPaul
Posted - 2011.01.27 04:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Shintai
I havent done any incursion. But if Incursion Sanshas omni tank and omni damages. Then its really bugged. They should do like regular sanshas so to say. I could understand the sleeper thing since it was new. But this is just plain wrong.

Multiple damage types/resists are good. Hell I might wish we even add one more type.

But stay to the storyline so to say. And not just omni everything with insane damage because they cant code a useful AI.


Now that's just an insult.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.27 04:52:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 27/01/2011 04:52:59

Incursions aren't an isk-printing-ATM in a constellation near you.

Incursions are group-PvE-content to give you a glimpse of the needs and options how to engage other podpilots.
Fly, Die, Adapt, Learn and then BeatTheCrapOutOfOthers.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2011.01.27 06:10:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 27/01/2011 06:14:31
Originally by: Fearless M0F0


Show me a fit for a frigate, bomber, cruiser and battleship that can:
- Omnitank with epic resists
- Omnidamage with epic DPS
- Oh, and remember they must have Neuts, RR, MWD, web and scram

I don't have a problem with rats being harder as long as it makes sense. Like instead of omnidamage, omnitank. Half of them do EM/Thermal, the other half Exp/Kin.

AFAIK, you can omnitank at the cost of buffer or DPS but sleepers and incursion sanshas don't seem to have that problem Rolling Eyes

Also, pvp dudes: have you ever been in a battle where you primary a frig or bomber you can't blowup because of RR? Shocked

btw: i still can't figure out a battleship fit that can one-shot a drone from 100km away like sleepers do Rolling Eyes




Navy Typhoon

935 "omni torp" danage
201k ehp
micro warp
stasis web
cap booster
warp disrupter
2x lrg RR
1x Hvy Neut
Resists as follows
Em 77% Therm 82% Kin 79% Explo 75%

If I drop the RR and nuets I can boost the resists to about 80% across the board and pump the damage to 1200+ dps

Jennifer Starling
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.27 06:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Xituqtra
if sansha would only deal em/therm damage and there resist hole would be em/therm like normal sansha gues what ships would be used most?

Yes correct amarr ships with there em/therm damage and great em/therm tanks. Now would that be good?

That would be quite excellent tbh ... ^^

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.27 06:18:00 - [22]
 

Op should pay more attention to the damage sansha are actually doing.

Hint: They're using more than one weapon system. They do different damagetypes. This is not unheard of in pvp either.

Also, guy above me, a 08/15 dominix pvp fit does that too.


I, for one, am relieved that this is the first time in Eve history that a pvp fleet can run pve content with minimal to no changes to the setup at all. Even the strategies are similar.

jowming
Posted - 2011.01.27 06:34:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:49:38
Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:49:01
Edited by: jowming on 27/01/2011 06:39:57
i joined a incursion on the first day they really do to much damage and are way overtanked a frig can hit you for over 600+ damage in the small incursions and tank pretty much any damage your group tosses at it and i made it out fine i left and went back to what i do normaly never lost a ship but i can see why there not going to be done much a normal 6 man group would not have any chance at killing them if your forced to rep everyone and not able to get a shot off

oh and that 600+ damage was in a domi with 80 resists across the board

love alts i get to play barbie everytime i make one

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.27 06:57:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
I, for one, am relieved that this is the first time in Eve history that a pvp fleet can run pve content with minimal to no changes to the setup at all. Even the strategies are similar.


I really like this also. Further, I think all PvE content should move toward being basically like PvP. Having "PvE fits" and "PvP fits" is silly--there should just be "combat fits".

princess abbie
SoulCalibur Force
Drop the Hammer
Posted - 2011.01.27 07:07:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus


I, for one, am relieved that this is the first time in Eve history that a pvp fleet can run pve content with minimal to no changes to the setup at all. Even the strategies are similar.
indeedVery Happy

Takashi X2
Posted - 2011.01.27 07:08:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Fearless M0F0
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:06:48
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:06:05
Edited by: Fearless M0F0 on 27/01/2011 01:02:23
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
have you ever done pvp with omni incoming damage? Why wouldn't the Sansha adapt, I have no issue if they have frigs which do therm, and some frigs which do exp, etc, model after all the races if you want, but predictable shouldn't be part of it.



Show me a fit for a frigate, bomber, cruiser and battleship that can:
- Omnitank with epic resists
- Omnidamage with epic DPS
- Oh, and remember they must have Neuts, RR, MWD, web and scram

I don't have a problem with rats being harder as long as it makes sense. Like instead of omnidamage, omnitank. Half of them do EM/Thermal, the other half Exp/Kin.

AFAIK, you can omnitank at the cost of buffer or DPS but sleepers and incursion sanshas don't seem to have that problem Rolling Eyes

Also, pvp dudes: have you ever been in a battle where you primary a frig or bomber you can't blowup because of RR? Shocked

btw: i still can't figure out a battleship fit that can one-shot a drone from 100km away like sleepers do Rolling Eyes



First of all the dmg only seems epic. These sansha iirc were designed to mirror pod pilots a lot closer. Ergo they plug thier res holes and use real guns. Your way to use to missions where a room of 15 battleships put out 600dps.... Your could tank any bs nicely wiht smaller large guns have RR and ewar and still put out 300+ dps per Bs which stands to reason a group of 10 of you puts out 3k dps. Why wouldnt the Sansha be able to do the same?

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2011.01.27 07:10:00 - [27]
 

So you can hot drop the sansha, crash the node and pick them off as they log back in?

Takashi X2
Posted - 2011.01.27 07:21:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ocih
So you can hot drop the sansha, crash the node and pick them off as they log back in?


They load with the server first therefore will pick you off as you log back in. And yes thats what they would do.

Ocih
Amarr
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2011.01.27 07:24:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Takashi X2
Originally by: Ocih
So you can hot drop the sansha, crash the node and pick them off as they log back in?


They load with the server first therefore will pick you off as you log back in. And yes thats what they would do.


With thier omni tanked, Omni Dps, Omni lock, Omni speed tanked, omni ranged, multi platform, full bonus frigates that we can make for PvP.
Gotcha.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.27 07:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: jowming

i joined a incursion on the first day they really do to much damage and are way overtanked a frig can hit you for over 600+ damage in the small incursions and tank pretty much any damage your group tosses at it


Webifiers.
They work.

What doesn't work is flinging cruise missiles or heavy drones at them.

With some minimal thought about proper synergy between the ships in fleet the frigates pop before receiving even one rr cycle. With a modicum of planning the cruisers melt in seconds without getting repped one bit.

When a rag-tag band of people who have for the most part never flown together can rush through vanguard sites after a few lines of coordination, like I did earlier with some random people I know only from irc and forums, incursions can't be too hard. We completed them with no losses. With too few people in fleet so we got less payout even. And we weren't in trouble even once.

It's not the sites that are too hard, it's the highsec population that is too weak tbh.


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