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blankseplocked [Proposal] War Dec Mechanic Changes
 
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Ronan Connor
Posted - 2011.04.21 10:32:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Guilliman R
Edited by: Guilliman R on 21/04/2011 09:59:34
Make em cost 1m per member in both the target and your own corp. Same for alliance.

Say a corp with 300 people decks a corp with 20 people, the total cost to start the war is 320.000.000 !

Alliance A with 3250 members decks alliance B with 2521 members makes the total cost to start a war by 5.771.000.000

Promotes actual corp growth too.




I like that idea. Though the obvious flaw would be that members would be "forced" to enter their alts (maybe not even used).

But I support the topics op. It is to easy for a deccing corp to have "fun". There is imo no balance for a corp who dont want to have a wardec, cant afford to hire mercs or is to small. Their gameplay suffers in favour of the deccing corp.
There should be at least a way that an alliance could pay concord not to accept a wardec for a period of time. Maybe with the same approach Guilliman R uses. An alliance has 100 members, concord protection is 100.000.000. That would be 5,2 billion a year. To balance it, one could say you can pay only for 26 weeks a year.


Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
Posted - 2011.04.21 11:25:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Lord Tarrn
Originally by: ezthumper
Originally by: Opertone
Originally by: Memcoll
Not supported. If someone wants to declare war on you they will pay the price whatever that may be. A high war dec fee might prevent new players from starting a war which would discourage pvp. not a good thing.


this is bull... high cost war decs will protect new players from war being initiated against them aka griefing the newbies


I see a lot of words like "Griefing" in this thread being thrown about.

So are these "Griefer" type corps / individuals getting the ban hammer?

I mean you guys are reporting these "Griefer" corps....right?

If they are truly "griefing" you should be able to correct the action as per terms of agreement upon logging into the game...right?








What???

Do you have any idea how many corporations are affected by Grief Wars? Think of the amount of petitions for that category alone.

War Declarations Need to be Reformed

Otherwise the game should have the tag line

- EVE ONLINE -
Everybody's an *******

Join Now


Being decced for two to three weeks doesnt constitute griefing.

Being permanently decced by the same people no matter what corp you are in all the time is.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.04.21 12:54:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Lord Tarrn


What???

Do you have any idea how many corporations are affected by Grief Wars? Think of the amount of petitions for that category alone.



Do you actually have any real data to support the "many" corps affected or are you are making over reaching statements based on nerd rage.

Originally by: Lord Tarrn

- EVE ONLINE -
Everybody's an *******



Yes, welcome to EvE.

Hermosa Diosas
Ministry Of Mining And Industry
Posted - 2011.04.21 13:22:00 - [34]
 

The cost of war decs can be very expensive. All depends on who you war dec, how many wars active, blah blah.

I think to make low sec better they should make wars active only in low sec.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.04.21 14:13:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Hermosa Diosas
The cost of war decs can be very expensive. All depends on who you war dec, how many wars active, blah blah.

I think to make low sec better they should make wars active only in low sec.


Cool, then make all space lo-sec and null sec.

Lord Tarrn
Posted - 2011.04.22 04:52:00 - [36]
 

You boot a corporate spy -- War Dec

You say the wrong thing in local chat -- War Dec

You create a large and popular corporation -- War Dec

It's too easy to declare wars for ridiculous reasons.

Maybe that's the starting point for Reformation.

Quillian Ulant
Posted - 2011.04.25 18:13:00 - [37]
 

i like the idea of having corp wardecs price scale to the number of relative corp members...though as previous people have stated, corps and alliances are generally loaded with isk....the price will make no difference to the largest corporations in the game IE major alliances such as goons or IT or the like...they are rich enough to afford even the highest prices...imho it will not affect low/null sec in any way because obviously you dont need a wardec to fight out there. The current system is basically punishing players who want to form a group, and in a game where grouping together is practically mandatory, this is terrible for the game's evolution. If all the current corporations and alliances remain in their current positions and power bases, the game never changes, and that is also bad.

Basically (as i understand it) the wardec system is a way for player corporations to "bribe" concord (the supposed international police force that keeps peace in the eve universe) in order for concord to look the other way when that corp attacks the decced corp. If the game is trying to be as realistic as possible, then this should be Extremely difficult to do. Im sure if you tried to bribe interpol, you'd get laughed into submission if you offered the equivalent of 2mil isk to them.

on the flipside, corps should be rewarded for thier standings imo. so to balance, id ask that CONCORD standing of the deccing corp give a discount proportionally.

Alexander Third
Gallente
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Posted - 2011.04.26 01:36:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Alexander Third on 26/04/2011 01:39:21
Originally by: Lord Tarrn
You boot a corporate spy -- War Dec

You say the wrong thing in local chat -- War Dec

You create a large and popular corporation -- War Dec

It's too easy to declare wars for ridiculous reasons.

Maybe that's the starting point for Reformation.


This, Time to completely reform the Wardec system

Originally by: Memcoll
Not supported. If someone wants to declare war on you they will pay the price whatever that may be. A high war dec fee might prevent new players from starting a war which would discourage pvp. not a good thing.


If they want PVP they can move to null or low

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.26 01:52:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Alexander Third
If they want PVP they can move to null or low


If you don't want PVP you can move to Hello Kitty Online.

See? Now we both sound like *******s.

Alexander Third
Gallente
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Posted - 2011.04.26 01:54:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Alexander Third
If they want PVP they can move to null or low


If you don't want PVP you can move to Hello Kitty Online.

See? Now we both sound like *******s.



well, I'm not trying to get rid of wardecs, just get rid of griefing as a profession

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.26 02:19:00 - [41]
 

Why are you trying to use other MMOs standards for "griefing" in EVE? War decs are not griefing. Even constant, continuous war decs of a corp are not griefing. Suicide gankings are not griefings, in the context of EVE. They might be in other games, but not here.

To paraphrase a movie: "I don't think that word means what you think it means."

Gavjack Bunk
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.04.26 08:51:00 - [42]
 

If you want to make war harder to get into, you should have proposal for making it harder to get out of too.

Right now, I can waste 2m isk and 48 hours extremely easily. The 2m isk I don't care about. The 48 hours is a problem. Of course for the low low price of 1bn isk a year, I can trade that in for 50m isk and only 24 hours wasted.

Either way, this concept of "griefing war" is an absolute nonsense, because immunity from war is rolled into the game design, nobody can actually grief you with the war mechanic unless you allow them to.

There is no reason to penalise players for trying to grief you beyond the penalties you can already push onto them using the game mechanics as they exist today. In fact, having to pay 48 hours is a penalty forced onto me so often, I consider it griefing. Since you want to stop griefing, let's do something about this war griefing. No more corp leaving, no more logging out and playing on alts, no more logging out and playing Tanks or League of Legends instead. When you're at war, you're automatically logged in and set adrift at a safe spot. Yeah that should do it.

Sounds ridiculous when it's turned around doesn't it?

Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.04.26 10:49:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Alexander Third
Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Alexander Third
If they want PVP they can move to null or low


If you don't want PVP you can move to Hello Kitty Online.

See? Now we both sound like *******s.



well, I'm not trying to get rid of wardecs, just get rid of griefing as a profession


Nothing mentioned in this thread so far consitutes griefing

MNagy
Posted - 2011.04.26 16:26:00 - [44]
 

Sometimes I think a corp that is being war dec'd or that is war dec'ing should not be able to accept or remove any corp members till the war is renewed / or over. ( once a week ).

Too many times you get a 1 person corp do the war dec, then woosh -everyone joins that corp.

On the other hand...you do the war deccing, and then whoosh - all the miners / haulers have left the corp you just war dec'd till the war is over.

-just a thought

Nikita Keriget
Posted - 2011.04.26 18:05:00 - [45]
 

If a war dec is basically bribing Concord to look the other way, how about the defending corp can bribe Concord to not do so? So if the attacking corp pays the initial wardec fee, the defending corp can pay Concord the same amount to nullify the war. The attacking corp can then pay double to reinitiate, and the defending corp can pay that amount to nullify, repeating until one party gives up. Basically, give the defending corp a way to defend with their economic might. Could be a nice isk sink too.

MNagy
Posted - 2011.04.26 18:38:00 - [46]
 

I like that idea Nikita.


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.04.26 18:52:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Baaldor on 26/04/2011 18:52:51
Originally by: Nikita Keriget
If a war dec is basically bribing Concord to look the other way, how about the defending corp can bribe Concord to not do so? So if the attacking corp pays the initial wardec fee, the defending corp can pay Concord the same amount to nullify the war. The attacking corp can then pay double to reinitiate, and the defending corp can pay that amount to nullify, repeating until one party gives up. Basically, give the defending corp a way to defend with their economic might. Could be a nice isk sink too.


Actually it would be much more effective to hire a MERC to address the situation rather than rely on some contrived game mechanic. You know support home grown player driven activities that solve player social conflicts with out the use of the CCP hand holding.

Nikita Keriget
Posted - 2011.04.27 00:17:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Actually it would be much more effective to hire a MERC to address the situation rather than rely on some contrived game mechanic. You know support home grown player driven activities that solve player social conflicts with out the use of the CCP hand holding.


Isn't being able to pay off Concord to look the other way in high security space a contrived game mechanic also? I think 'contrived' is a very loaded word, and not accurate here.

As to the argument that hiring mercs encourages player driven emergent gameplay, I think that is an excellent point. I'm not sure whether that approach would be "much more effective" however - given that it costs 2 million isk to wardec a corporation, I'm not sure what sort of mercs you could hire for that amount who would be able to make the attacking corp retract.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.04.27 11:05:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Nikita Keriget

Isn't being able to pay off Concord to look the other way in high security space a contrived game mechanic also? I think 'contrived' is a very loaded word, and not accurate here.

Maybe "contrived" is a loaded word, but so is the bantering of the word "griefing". Most of the posters here have no clue what that is, in relation to EvE. There is a mechanic already in game to stop wars that fall under Eve's definition of "griefing". And by simply submitting a petition to a third party (CCP) that can not be bribed with game isk, the result of such petition can render a judgement up to and including banning from the game.
Originally by: Nikita Keriget

As to the argument that hiring mercs encourages player driven emergent game play, I think that is an excellent point. I'm not sure whether that approach would be "much more effective" however - given that it costs 2 million isk to wardec a corporation, I'm not sure what sort of mercs you could hire for that amount who would be able to make the attacking corp retract.


The cost is usually very reasonable for the results you get. Not to mention it reinforces the actual game play that was intended in the first place, players actually playing the game with the tools available to them to achieve the desired result.



Tarrn
Posted - 2011.04.27 18:50:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Nikita Keriget
If a war dec is basically bribing Concord to look the other way, how about the defending corp can bribe Concord to not do so? So if the attacking corp pays the initial wardec fee, the defending corp can pay Concord the same amount to nullify the war. The attacking corp can then pay double to reinitiate, and the defending corp can pay that amount to nullify, repeating until one party gives up. Basically, give the defending corp a way to defend with their economic might. Could be a nice isk sink too.


I like this idea.

Elezondo
Posted - 2011.04.27 18:51:00 - [51]
 

I would like to see part of the war dec fee (~50%?) be put into a pool that the corp/alliance getting dec'ed can earn by destroying the enemy ships, paid out perhaps by insurance value. I.e. If the dec'ed alliance/corp kills an enemy ship, the insurance value(not actual insurance, just the value if it had insurance) would be taken from the pool and given to the dec'ed alliance/corp at the end of the war. Just something to... promote PvP, or give incentive for people who whould have left corp to stay and fight.

Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.04.28 08:57:00 - [52]
 

Still no one has given a decent definition of what a 'griefer' war is.

Kilaaaa
Posted - 2011.05.05 11:23:00 - [53]
 

Hey,

I would like to see a complete change of war mechanics...

...away from ISK-based to Sec Status based!!

Why should Concord allow wars in high sec? I would say to allow a corp to punish somebody who did something really terrible to them... That wouldnt happen to many times in corp history i guess.

So:

If a corp is deciding that it wants to dec another corp for revenge then let them do it with no costs at all. Just reduce the Sec status from each corp member from the deccing corp and everybody who is joining that corp while it is in war by -1 or -2 points.

That would automatically stop griefing wars, mercenary wars, fun wars or whatever, as people wouldnt be able to move around in high sec after 2-3 war decs...

No ISK based mechanics will ever stop the actual unfair war deccing mechanics.

fly safe


Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.05.05 13:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Kilaaaa
Hey,

I would like to see a complete change of war mechanics...

...away from ISK-based to Sec Status based!!

Why should Concord allow wars in high sec? I would say to allow a corp to punish somebody who did something really terrible to them... That wouldnt happen to many times in corp history i guess.

So:

If a corp is deciding that it wants to dec another corp for revenge then let them do it with no costs at all. Just reduce the Sec status from each corp member from the deccing corp and everybody who is joining that corp while it is in war by -1 or -2 points.

That would automatically stop griefing wars, mercenary wars, fun wars or whatever, as people wouldnt be able to move around in high sec after 2-3 war decs...

No ISK based mechanics will ever stop the actual unfair war deccing mechanics.

fly safe




And while you're at it, ban fun!

Evanga
Amarr
Trust Doesn't Rust
Posted - 2011.05.05 14:10:00 - [55]
 

bad idea

Alexander Third
Gallente
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Posted - 2011.05.09 01:59:00 - [56]
 

The war dec system needs to change, at the moment, anyone can war a single corp without anything bad happening. maybe some people don't want to constantly be attacked for no apparent reason?

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.05.09 02:17:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Alexander Third
at the moment, anyone can war a single corp without anything bad happening.


That would be the point.

Come up with a better system or STFU.

Shiroi Kiba
Posted - 2011.05.09 04:14:00 - [58]
 

If you can pay concord to look the other while you war dec a corp/alliance then why can't you pay concord to cease a war ?

example

Corp A war decs corp B (2 mil per week)

Corp B pays concord to remove the war dec (4 mil)

Corp A really wants the war dec so war dec again( 8 mil)

Corp B is an industrial corp and pays concord again (16 mil)

This goes on until corp A or B no longer pays concord. Each time concord is involved the fee doubles.

Quite quickly this can lead to a massive isk sink.


I know what people will say, " hire some mercs " but why can't I hire concord ?

Taredi Taredi
Posted - 2011.05.09 22:44:00 - [59]
 

EVE Online was about taking big risks to gain great rewards. What's the point if you're always at risk of non consensual pvp in high sec? What exactly is the gain on either party in high sec?

A one man corp War Decing a bunch of hulks just to pad his stats on battleclinic?

This was the intended result?

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.05.09 23:05:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Taredi Taredi
EVE Online was about taking big risks to gain great rewards. What's the point if you're always at risk of non consensual pvp in high sec? What exactly is the gain on either party in high sec?

A one man corp War Decing a bunch of hulks just to pad his stats on battleclinic?

This was the intended result?


Wait wait wait. let me see if I understand your post.

You start by saying 'EVE Online was about taking big risks to gain great rewards.', then you immediately contradict yourself by asking for the removal of risk? What?


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