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blankseplocked Turning off auto load of local character portraits?
 
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Missm Uppet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:16:00 - [31]
 

I'm with KerKnight - having an SSD and a good Internet connection makes this a non-issue and even adds to the game (especially for new players). However, I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Missm Uppet
I'm with KerKnight - having an SSD and a good Internet connection makes this a non-issue and even adds to the game (especially for new players). However, I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off.
Loading and storing the things isn't so much an issue for me. It's the fact that I used to use people's portraits in local as a very clear indicator of having already investigated them when travelling through potentially hostile space.

Calling up info on someone would load and cache the portrait, and I knew that here was someone I had looked at, but determined I didn't need to apply a standings tag to, and that I could move on to the next guy in the list…

…and if that cached portrait kept showing up again and again in the systems I travelled through, it would indicate that he was possibly following me and was worth a second look. Sure, now we have a proper "neutral" standing for those kinds of things, but it seems like a huge waste to dedicate a slot in the contacts list for such a temporary piece of information (temporary because it's trivially easy to blow away the entire portrait cache and thus remove all these kinds of markers, compared to going through and deleting a crapton of temporary neutral contacts).

Iraherag
Posted - 2011.01.22 20:09:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Iraherag on 22/01/2011 20:10:20
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Missm Uppet
I'm with KerKnight - having an SSD and a good Internet connection makes this a non-issue and even adds to the game (especially for new players). However, I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off.
Loading and storing the things isn't so much an issue for me. It's the fact that I used to use people's portraits in local as a very clear indicator of having already investigated them when travelling through potentially hostile space.

Calling up info on someone would load and cache the portrait, and I knew that here was someone I had looked at, but determined I didn't need to apply a standings tag to, and that I could move on to the next guy in the list…

…and if that cached portrait kept showing up again and again in the systems I travelled through, it would indicate that he was possibly following me and was worth a second look. Sure, now we have a proper "neutral" standing for those kinds of things, but it seems like a huge waste to dedicate a slot in the contacts list for such a temporary piece of information (temporary because it's trivially easy to blow away the entire portrait cache and thus remove all these kinds of markers, compared to going through and deleting a crapton of temporary neutral contacts).


Exactly.

On top of that I think the users need more control over when things happen, not less.

A reasonably sensible user will not trigger loading a picture without need in a high-load situation - A merciless "load when you see it" system will.

It might not be much and it might not affect people with great computers and fast connections by much, but why throw such a basic principle (don't load data from the server unless it's necessary) out of the window now (that's rethorical - I know we're supposed to see all the great new avatars all the time)

Babel
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2011.01.22 20:24:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Chribba
I too do not want it to auto-load, it makes it harder to keep track of pilots.


This is wisdom ... for me it's definitely not about server stress.

Zhou Wuwang
Federal Laboratories
Posted - 2011.01.22 20:44:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Tippia
The main difference lies in where and how they're rendered (which among other things means that fetching and rendering an image does not lock the UI).


This. Busy systems are much smoother now. Switching to a chat tab with a large number of players is much faster now. The UI lags less.


Whether the client or server renders the portrait is immaterial to the issue of downloading, writing and displaying all portraits. It isn't the fact that all portraits are immediately downloaded to our systems that makes the UI "lag less." The UI is faster because the portraits provided to the UI are rendered and cached on CCP's separate image server. The same image server you can access via a browser. That has nothing to do with downloading and displaying every character portrait you encounter. If you were to info a character and THEN only download the portrait that would still happen faster now because of CCP's server side render and cache -- your computer's cache of an empty silhouette is just as fast to display for the UI.

I also doubt that the "I can't track people as well" argument is going to be effective with CCP. It's against their cultural nature to allow you a choice. They want to control what's best in their minds for the way you should play. They made the decision that tracking players isn't good for you. So downloading and displaying all the portraits supports their objective of hampering your ability to track people.

I suspect you can only get this changed by demonstrating a technical issue.




Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.22 21:20:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zhou Wuwang
Whether the client or server renders the portrait is immaterial to the issue of downloading, writing and displaying all portraits. It isn't the fact that all portraits are immediately downloaded to our systems that makes the UI "lag less."
It matters because it used to be a UI-blocking call; now it is not. It would certainly matter if the client had to render all portraits because of all the work that would have to be done in the background (or foreground, considering how some UI stuff is handled in EVE) to populate the local list.
Quote:
They want to control what's best in their minds for the way you should play.
…yeah, apart from the whole "emergent gameplay" thing they like so much. Rolling Eyes

Princess Matarra
Posted - 2011.01.22 22:00:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: NiM Cal
Confirming I too find the autofetching irritating. I frequently play eve when traveling on a 3G connection, where usage costs, and it's something I could really live without...

It's also hugely annoying keeping tabs of people in local, when hunting.

Pre incursion, i'd quickly check the character sheet/load portrait of people in system (threat assesment), and know from the loaded faces who I had checked out. Now i've got to try and remember the face/name which is :effort:

/support an option to disable it

This. +1

Teranul
Posted - 2011.01.22 22:09:00 - [38]
 

I, for one, appreciate that I no longer have to click-click-click-click-clickity-click just to see faces as opposed to a whole lot of nothing.

Also appreciated is the fact that the UI no longer locks up. Win-win for me.

Dvomayn
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.01.23 07:00:00 - [39]
 

It may just be me and my net connection (horrible aussie net :( ) but pulling portraits is a nightmare. Loading a character sheet takes an age now due to lag while pulling up the portrait, I run my character sheet w/o things showing just because every time I go to change a skill or post a KM I lag out while the portrait loads. Also, loading grid after a gate jump into a fight is a nightmare - although I can't back this up OFC I feel that loading 50 or so portrats + loading the system environment isn't doing much to help. Being able to say 'nope, don't want to see their portraits until I feel like it' again would be fantastic.

Bryg Philomena
Don't Taze Me Bro
Posted - 2011.01.23 07:19:00 - [40]
 

read the devblog, they addressed the change to the way portraits are rendered.

Quote:
This means that the client isn't loading graphic assets and running rendering code for characters in the background while you are flying in space, it will just fetch the character portraits via the internet as if you were browsing a web page. This also means that the client doesn't have to ask the server for characters appearances in order to render them, so we are freeing up server resources too. We also offload all the bandwidth to our Content Delivery Network (CDN) so that we aren't using up the link to Tranquility with requests for images - and as all requests for images go to our CDN it should be extremely fast wherever you are in the world.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.23 15:47:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Bryg Philomena
read the devblog, they addressed the change to the way portraits are rendered.
Yes, but that doesn't really explain why we have to download a bunch of images for no good reason, and having no say in the matter, whereas before we could choose not to.

Zhou Wuwang
Federal Laboratories
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:04:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
read the devblog, they addressed the change to the way portraits are rendered.
Yes, but that doesn't really explain why we have to download a bunch of images for no good reason, and having no say in the matter, whereas before we could choose not to.


It doesn't explain it, because rendering the portraits (explained in the dev blog) is a completely separate issue from automatically downloading and caching all portraits. Somebody (in CCP) just arbitrarily and capriciously decided that downloading all portraits should now be "the standard."

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:27:00 - [43]
 

That optional loading was as i see it a "workaround" for the client stress the rendering of the images caused. Now they improved the system and got rid of an ugly workaround. A good things.

Now people complaining because something changed and they can't get over it. I sometimes wonder how some people can survive. Next time the flavor of the air around you changes why not stop breathing until you "get the old air back".

Verkala Ven
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:39:00 - [44]
 

So, just to make sure I understand...

There's no good way in-game to flag other pilots on-the-fly. As a workaround to this, we leveraged the on-demand load of portraits as a sort of "Looked at" flag. Now they've changed it so that portraits demand, and our workaround is gone.

And the solution to this is... to demand the return of the workaround? CCP certainly doesn't win any awards for interface design, but this is remarkable even in the realm of low expectations. Maybe they could add some new shortcuts to set standing when hovering over someone on the chat window?

At least pretend we're trying to move forward here.

Spineker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:40:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Spineker on 24/01/2011 23:43:46
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
read the devblog, they addressed the change to the way portraits are rendered.

Quote:
This means that the client isn't loading graphic assets and running rendering code for characters in the background while you are flying in space, it will just fetch the character portraits via the internet as if you were browsing a web page. This also means that the client doesn't have to ask the server for characters appearances in order to render them, so we are freeing up server resources too. We also offload all the bandwidth to our Content Delivery Network (CDN) so that we aren't using up the link to Tranquility with requests for images - and as all requests for images go to our CDN it should be extremely fast wherever you are in the world.



BOOM and Bryg smartbombs the entire thread!

Guess Mr. Baliagha was not such an "idiot" after all.

Spineker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:42:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Karak Terrel
That optional loading was as i see it a "workaround" for the client stress the rendering of the images caused. Now they improved the system and got rid of an ugly workaround. A good things.

Now people complaining because something changed and they can't get over it. I sometimes wonder how some people can survive. Next time the flavor of the air around you changes why not stop breathing until you "get the old air back".


Yep will just have to set standings :)

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.25 00:20:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: ivar R''dhak on 25/01/2011 00:23:23
Originally by: Tippia
It's the fact that I used to use people's portraits in local as a very clear indicator of having already investigated them when travelling through potentially hostile space.

I have the very deep suspicion CCP isn´t even aware of this (important for 0.0) form of "metagaming".

Bring back the facelessness CCP!
Let us admire the ozom portraits when we want to or have to like during Incarna.

Originally by: Spineker
Yep will just have to set standings :)
.. for everybody in EVE you can theoretically meet.
Sounds like a perfect plan .. to crash the server.

Fkn Arson
0ne Percent.
Posted - 2011.01.25 00:26:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Spineker

BOOM and Bryg smartbombs the entire thread!

Guess Mr. Baliagha was not such an "idiot" after all.


I would love to see your explanation for that, seeing as it didn't (as pointed out after that thread) explain everything, if anything, about the questions being asked, as well as those who play on limited connections (3g being the most limited, along with Satellite I assume).

Though kissing someones rear does get you noticed in the forums faster.

Spineker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.25 00:33:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Spineker on 25/01/2011 00:34:42
Originally by: Fkn Arson
Originally by: Spineker

BOOM and Bryg smartbombs the entire thread!

Guess Mr. Baliagha was not such an "idiot" after all.


I would love to see your explanation for that, seeing as it didn't (as pointed out after that thread) explain everything, if anything, about the questions being asked, as well as those who play on limited connections (3g being the most limited, along with Satellite I assume).

Though kissing someones rear does get you noticed in the forums faster.



Made perfect sense to me and considering I think for me had no impact at all if not more responsive. If 2 or 3 megs of images every 3000 or so players you run into is going to bankrupt a 3g connection maybe find a new connection? I would rather have more responsive servers, Satellite with its 1 to 2ms lag time?

As for me kissing arse I found it silly to call someone an idiot when the person was just trying to explain why it might work better. If me saying that was wrong to call him that makes me an arse kisser well prepare yourself because I have no intention of changing my way of viewing things.

Zhou Wuwang
Federal Laboratories
Posted - 2011.01.25 02:16:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Spineker
Made perfect sense to me...


Respectfully, the reason it made perfect sense to you is because you don't appear understand the technology. If you had a better understanding, you would have realized it wasn't relevant to OP.

Originally by: Spineker
...I found it silly to call someone an idiot when the person was just trying to explain why it might work better.


Agreed.

Saffron Noire
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:07:00 - [51]
 

+1 (please ADD the old option to turn off char auto load)

agreed, i used to travel about and know instantly if any mates were in system, as there character portraits would be already loaded (also works with bad guys!) i really miss this, it's info overload atm.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:19:00 - [52]
 

I've already posted in this thread, but would like to throw in again after more experience. Auto-loading portraits does use system resources and does represent client-side performance degradation to a noticeable level. It makes it very difficult to watch for wartargets, as scrolling through local will auto-load the portraits of the hundreds of people in local, and visually it's much more difficult to identify persons of interest. The only arguments against allowing the option to opt out are immersion and that client-side performance unimportant. It is not immersive to see a bunch of vague meaningless shapes in the portrait boxes. It is not immersive to have any client-side performance degradation just because you want to look for a name. In video games, faces do not matter, only names do, and any attempts to force a change will make the games worse, not better.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:24:00 - [53]
 

I've got EVE installed to an SSD so don't notice any slowdown, but not being able to identify new people entering local is something of an issue for a lot of people.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:31:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
I've got EVE installed to an SSD so don't notice any slowdown, but not being able to identify new people entering local is something of an issue for a lot of people.


I used this a lot :(
I was rather disapointed when I noticed all portraits were updating all the time.

Ben Alman
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:47:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Ben Alman on 07/02/2011 23:51:56
You do realize that only the ones currently displayed will be downloaded? Thats about 6 on a default window and about max 30 on an enlarged local.
So no issue performance wise. Even in Jita where many changes occur there is no problem, because with 1800 people, the top 6 that are displayed will be pretty much the same at any time.

So the only thing to whine about is a lost intel tool. Be happy they didn't remove local yet!

EDIT: Opt out OK for people with crappy pc HDD inet whatever but then NO images will be displayed ever so the "no intel" aspect is still present

KhaniKirai
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:48:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: KhaniKirai on 07/02/2011 23:53:48
Edited by: KhaniKirai on 07/02/2011 23:48:22
Checked the cache/pictures directory of eve.

Numbers of files: 16303, 101 directories inside it.
Space : 32.2MB
Space taken on HD: 72.6mb

And its only 2 weeks old???

Really, I dont need this mess on my HD, give us that opt out option back.

Edit: the above was only the characters folder in the pictures directory.

The pictures directory contains 17.432 files, 109 maps and is 70.8MB and occupies 116MB on the HD.

If you insist on putting all the graphical stuff on our HD's, have at least the decency to make a BIG file of it.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:49:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Spineker
Edited by: Spineker on 24/01/2011 23:43:46
Originally by: Bryg Philomena
read the devblog, they addressed the change to the way portraits are rendered.

Quote:
This means that the client isn't loading graphic assets and running rendering code for characters in the background while you are flying in space, it will just fetch the character portraits via the internet as if you were browsing a web page. This also means that the client doesn't have to ask the server for characters appearances in order to render them, so we are freeing up server resources too. We also offload all the bandwidth to our Content Delivery Network (CDN) so that we aren't using up the link to Tranquility with requests for images - and as all requests for images go to our CDN it should be extremely fast wherever you are in the world.



BOOM and Bryg smartbombs the entire thread!

Guess Mr. Baliagha was not such an "idiot" after all.


Well, he remains an "idiot" because he accidentally said something that is marginally true through sheer luck and utter incomprehension of how things work.

The server (as in Tranquility) isn't less loaded due to the anything he said. TQ is less loaded because the queries are now made against another server entirely, which is in the same cluster that manages the website and probably eve-gate.

So yes, TQ is "safe". It still not changes that, client side, you ARE using much more bandwidth than before. And you're doing that in exactly the moment that is most critical: on jump in (since apparently you download images even if the chat is closed). This alone is undesirable (or at least should be subject to user's judgment). Couple that with the issues other people have noted and we have a "problem". Nothing major, but still it could be easily avoided.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:55:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Ben Alman
Edited by: Ben Alman on 07/02/2011 23:51:56
You do realize that only the ones currently displayed will be downloaded? Thats about 6 on a default window and about max 30 on an enlarged local.
So no issue performance wise. Even in Jita where many changes occur there is no problem, because with 1800 people, the top 6 that are displayed will be pretty much the same at any time.

So the only thing to whine about is a lost intel tool. Be happy they didn't remove local yet!

EDIT: Opt out OK for people with crappy pc HDD inet whatever but then NO images will be displayed ever so the "no intel" aspect is still present


^^ This is an example of the "performance doesn't matter" argument. I disagree. Performance matters.

Ben Alman
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.07 23:57:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Ben Alman on 07/02/2011 23:57:45
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Ben Alman
Edited by: Ben Alman on 07/02/2011 23:51:56
You do realize that only the ones currently displayed will be downloaded? Thats about 6 on a default window and about max 30 on an enlarged local.
So no issue performance wise. Even in Jita where many changes occur there is no problem, because with 1800 people, the top 6 that are displayed will be pretty much the same at any time.

So the only thing to whine about is a lost intel tool. Be happy they didn't remove local yet!

EDIT: Opt out OK for people with crappy pc HDD inet whatever but then NO images will be displayed ever so the "no intel" aspect is still present


^^ This is an example of the "performance doesn't matter" argument. I disagree. Performance matters.


Of course performance does matter but loading 6 to 30 32x32 images is in no way a performance hit. A bad coding style in programming code would do much more harm.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.02.08 00:09:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ben Alman
Edited by: Ben Alman on 07/02/2011 23:57:45
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Ben Alman
Edited by: Ben Alman on 07/02/2011 23:51:56
You do realize that only the ones currently displayed will be downloaded? Thats about 6 on a default window and about max 30 on an enlarged local.
So no issue performance wise. Even in Jita where many changes occur there is no problem, because with 1800 people, the top 6 that are displayed will be pretty much the same at any time.

So the only thing to whine about is a lost intel tool. Be happy they didn't remove local yet!

EDIT: Opt out OK for people with crappy pc HDD inet whatever but then NO images will be displayed ever so the "no intel" aspect is still present


^^ This is an example of the "performance doesn't matter" argument. I disagree. Performance matters.


Of course performance does matter but loading 6 to 30 32x32 images is in no way a performance hit. A bad coding style in programming code would do much more harm.


Ah I see. It's the "performance matters, but no, it doesn't really" argument. Got it.

I still maintain my own position that based on the FACT that loading ANY extra new data MUST cause a performance hit should be reason enough to give us the option of opting out, especially since the code was already there with the old system. And scrolling through a list of 1800 people looking for that 1 wartarget ALSO loads those 1800 portraits, which is a significant performance cost and waste of HDD space. It would be nice to have the click-to-load option back, but I also wouldn't mind if loading portraits was turned off entirely. What would happen if I set the portraits cache folder to read-only? Would it break EVE?


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