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NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:30:00 - [1]
 

Hi all,
Warning, this is a lengthy post, I tried to do my homework for it: Laughing

I promise this isn’t a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response. Cool

I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called “capsule pilots”. From an ‘observes’ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question.

Here’s my question: Why do people hate macro miners?

Let me explain my point of view…
You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about it…and moves on with is eve life.

Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger alliance…during transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their grief….and moved on with their eve lives.

It’s safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (let’s not forget market scams)

…basically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someone’s toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on.

So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topic…is also one of the most passive?
Think about it…has a macro’er ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?

Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCP’s stance on it. Let’s face it, it is cheating…I’ll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCP’s domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMT’s, and I’m glad…the last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots)

That being said, it is by far the least ‘aggressive’ form of cheating someone out of…anything. The way I see it, macro’er cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design.
I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? Let’s start with the obvious:



RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:32:00 - [2]
 


Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:32:00 - [3]
 

Macros are fine. Next.

Turzyx
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:37:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
Why do people hate macro miners?


Because they are cheating; people hate cheaters.

/thread

rock crawlermne
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:39:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: rock crawlermne on 21/01/2011 16:40:01
1) The macro pilot will be able to sell the ore/ice in mass quantities. Thus lowering the overall price of ore. But does this really affect the market in a bad way?
a. Professional REAL high-sec miners make less money, that is true
b. Lower ore prices could lead to more ships/items being manufactured
c. Keep in mind, most people would agree that the majority of macro’ers are in high sec. is it possible to assume that as the price of high sec minerals drop, the price of Null sec minerals increase as more ships are being built, thus more null sec mins are being purchased? Real Null-sec miners make more money?
2) The macro pilot will be able to buy PLEX for his account
a. Remember CCP makes mega $$ off of PLEX. Think of it this way, if I pay for a year, I just paid CCP 130 bucks….if in that year I also buy 2 PLEX to sell for isk, I just paid an additional 30 bucks. That’s essentially my paying for 14months of eve in a 12 month span.
b. As far as CCP is concerned, the pilot has been paid for, wither you do it or a macro pilot with your PLEX that you just bought does it, CCP still gets paid.
c. Also why I don’t think CCP will deal with macro issue on a large scale as they did w/ RMT’s.

I really am trying to maintain a neutral stance here,
I realize that I may have inadvertently defended macro use in eve. So here’s something from the opposite side. My addicting game before Eve was Diablo II. Loved it…had a lvl 99 all lightning sorceress that could seriously kick some ass. Had my own ‘clan’, we had our own channel everything. Lots of good times.
That game, has been completely overrun with spam bots for RMT. It’s damn near unplayable now, they come into your game and SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM to the point you can’t even type to your friends. I have no doubt it’s what set standards for such harsh punishments to bots in WOW (FYI, WOW and Diablo II are both Blizzard owned). I’ve seen the bad side of bots.
It would break my little nerd gaming heart to see that happen to eve. But CCP has put a nice hault on RMT. Thank GOD!

I’m truly interested in good opinions. Feel free to flame me if you want but it won’t help anyone.


sorry for the poor editing, im at work lol will have to get back and fix some typos

Akirei Scytale
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:39:00 - [6]
 

if you want to play the game, you should play the game.

Pearre Dash
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:42:00 - [7]
 

Because 99% of macro miners are involved with RMT, and RMT is a blight upon the landscape.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:49:00 - [8]
 

Because having an automated tool playing a game defeats the normal purpose of having a game in the first place.

There are exceptions of course, like for scientific use designing AIs and such.

If a bot is considered needed in a specific game, the real issue is probably game design or player mentality. The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.

rock crawlermne
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:50:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Pearre Dash
RMT is a blight upon the landscape.


well spoken.

and what of the people not involved in RMT?

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:52:00 - [10]
 

The people who use macros "have". The people who don't use them "have not". People will inherently hate anyone else who has more than them, or has to work less to accomplish the same as them.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:55:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 21/01/2011 16:55:44
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
If a bot is considered needed in a specific game, the real issue is probably game design or player mentality. The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.


I like this.

I've never said this to my friends, but I support Hulkageddon. Not beacause of the carebear grief (unfortuniate victims to this war) but because its real purpose...to keep the botting in check.

think of it, without CCP'S help, the community has found a way to balance out the bots and keep them paranoid of being ganked....very kewl +1 to the game.
I agree with you thuogh, the best andswer would be a better solution to makeing money and getting minerals.

MoonDragn
Caldari
J0urneys End
Posted - 2011.01.21 16:57:00 - [12]
 

It really doesn't matter what people think about Macroers. CCP has cracked down on macroers since the beginning of the game and they have never changed that policy. Even back when people were macro mining velspar, they were cracking down.

Cruel Crow
Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:08:00 - [13]
 

omg this subject older then I am..


there more macro now then when I started

rock crawlermne
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
The people who use macros "have". The people who don't use them "have not". People will inherently hate anyone else who has more than them, or has to work less to accomplish the same as them.


Can it be as simple as jealousy?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:15:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: rock crawlermne
Can it be as simple as jealousy?
No. Or well, yes, it can be a cause that is as simple as jealousy, but jealousy is not that cause, though.

Stephen Root
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:26:00 - [16]
 

The reason I hate macro miners which I'm sure some ppl feel the same way is that its against the rules. Hence I don't do it because CCP says I'll be banned.

They do do it and don't get banned and thats why I hate them.

If I did do it wouldn't be for RMT but so I could enjoy the game more when I did play.

I enjoy eve and like my characters, I don't want them to get banned, yet it seems there is no real punishment for ppl using macros who dont do RMT.


So.. yeah.. jealousy

laksmi2
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:30:00 - [17]
 

macros devaluate the work of non-macroplayers. kill them all.

Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr
PORSCHE AG
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:31:00 - [18]
 


it seems that macro users have the most of fun in EVE... :(

real players must work for things in EVE, and criminals have it all on platter and use that stolen resources against real players (kill you with ship that is bought with stollen isk)

Winterjack
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
I promise this isn’t a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response. Cool


I'll bite.

Quote:
It’s safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (let’s not forget market scams)


That's in-game cheating. Using player skills and smarts and in-game tools to obtain a profit. EVE is about profit.

Quote:
Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topic…is also one of the most passive? Think about it…has a macro’er ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?


Break ore market, suck up all the roids so that us poor fellows that login at 5-6pm evetime can forget about being miners, gain an advantage over legitimate players by using a trick that is against the EULA to take the profit out of my hands.
When my profit as a miner goes down from 10 millions an hour to barely 2 millions an hour, this is a problem. And this is because they do not work for that money - they're not watching strip miners and move mineral around. They're out working like me, but they're still making money due to a breakage of the EULA.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not angry. I just want their use of macro to stop.

Quote:
That being said, it is by far the least ‘aggressive’ form of cheating someone out of…anything. The way I see it, macro’er cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design.


You said it yourself, you're new here. EVE is about profit. The killboards don't just show amount of ships destroyed, it's ISK value that matters. EVE is economy driven from head to toe. When you deprive me of my hard-earned isk, you are effectively aggressing me. If you do it in a legitimate way (harassing, outmining, merc hunting, market wars...) I can retaliate and this is a war in pure eve-style.

If you do it by mining 23.5/7, the only way I have to counter is use a bot myself. Which, besides being stupid (as you don't know what the bot really does besides sending commands to eve), is against the EULA. Thus, I have no option to retaliate and I succumb.
Or go do something else, as most of my friends who used to mine have done so far... including myself.

And don't be mistaken, macroers flourish in nullsec as well, since most nullsec systems are heavily defended and you can be cozy and safe most of the times. Hell, you can be pretty safe even in losec, if you do it right.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.01.21 18:00:00 - [20]
 

Macro miners result in a drop in mineral prices and everything made from said minerals. At first this sounds like a push, the hours I need to mine in order to buy a new shiny does not change. BUT

Macro miners buy PLEX with isk, thus pushing the isk price of a PLEX up. Because of macro miners, the hours I have to mine in order to buy a PLEX increases.

Others changing how I play by doing valid in-game actions: I may cry, but thats the game.

Others changing how I play by cheating: Not acceptable.

Also, yes people get ganked by macro miners, when those same people take their isk and buy gank ships. And they can do that over and over with a virtually unlimited isk supply, without having to earn that isk.

If you get hot dropped by a super carrier fleet in 0.0, there is a chance that fleet exists due to macro use.

Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr
PORSCHE AG
Posted - 2011.01.21 18:09:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 21/01/2011 18:11:02
I wont worry if botters would not affect my game experiance... but they are...

- the problem is that ore that I mine becouse of bots worth 2 to 3 times less...
- the problem is that plex becouse of bots costs 1,5 to 2 times more...
- the problem is that I cant even mine that much ore becouse bots mine out belts before i come online...
- the problem is that when i kill them they just buy new ship and when they kill me i must earn for new ship...
- the problem is that they play the game and dont have to worry about ISK, and i must calculate can i afford to play the game that way or i must wait to play it becouse i dont have ISK for that ship or something...
- the problem is that they play the game only when its fun and I must to do less fun parts for longer time becouse of them....

they are ruining the game for real ppl...

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.01.21 18:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
Hi all,
Warning, this is a lengthy post, I tried to do my homework for it: Laughing

I promise this isn’t a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response. Cool

I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called “capsule pilots”. From an ‘observes’ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question.

Here’s my question: Why do people hate macro miners?

Let me explain my point of view…
You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about it…and moves on with is eve life.

Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger alliance…during transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their grief….and moved on with their eve lives.

It’s safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (let’s not forget market scams)

…basically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someone’s toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on.

So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topic…is also one of the most passive?
Think about it…has a macro’er ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?

Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCP’s stance on it. Let’s face it, it is cheating…I’ll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCP’s domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMT’s, and I’m glad…the last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots)

That being said, it is by far the least ‘aggressive’ form of cheating someone out of…anything. The way I see it, macro’er cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design.
I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? Let’s start with the obvious:





So to condense your argument:

Since there are things that are within EVEs rules which are against the rules in other games, why shouldn't we do things that are against the rules in EVE?

Ms Sade
Posted - 2011.01.21 19:02:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Hi all,
Warning, this is a lengthy post, I tried to do my homework for it: Laughing

I promise this isn’t a troll. I have an honest question and would like a mature, but honest response. Cool

I'm relatively new here, but I have spent a good deal of time (when I'm not playing eve) scanning the forums trying to get to know the populous and general demeanor of these so called “capsule pilots”. From an ‘observes’ point of view, I would like to pose a much debated question.

Here’s my question: Why do people hate macro miners?

Let me explain my point of view…
You can tell a lot about a game, about how the people who respond to it when they are angry. For example, in the crime and punishment section I found many, many posts expressing anger towards ore thieves. The victim feels robbed, posts angrily about it…and moves on with is eve life.

Lets look at pirats. I read another post where a smaller alliance was moving billions of isk worth of station equipment to a null sec system they had recently rented from a larger alliance…during transport they got caught in a gate camp. The event lost them so much the entire corporation disbanded. The victims were angry, posted their grief….and moved on with their eve lives.

It’s safe to say (CCP even admits it) that cheating and robbing people out of their hard earned isk and items is as much a part of the game as anything. (let’s not forget market scams)

…basically you can do pretty much anything you want in eve. And even if you step on someone’s toes, angry posts are sent out, griefers are labeled and players move on.

So to reiterate my question: out of all the dirty things and bad behavior that is in eve. Why is it, that the one naughty thing to do, that angers more people than any other topic…is also one of the most passive?
Think about it…has a macro’er ever stolen anything that you have built/worked for? Have they ever ganked your ship? Have they ever insulted you? What does a macro do that angers people so?

Before I continue, I do want to point out that it is against the EULA to use macros, so we all know CCP’s stance on it. Let’s face it, it is cheating…I’ll agree there. And the ones who use macro profit to RMT have been justly banned, I could see how that profit is infringing on CCP’s domain, they had every right and reason to ban RMT’s, and I’m glad…the last thing we need is to see 500 spam bots in local. (Diablo II is damn near unplayable now cause of RMT and spam bots)

That being said, it is by far the least ‘aggressive’ form of cheating someone out of…anything. The way I see it, macro’er cheat CCP more than individual players, they exploit an in game design.
I have a few theories and I had to ask myself, what are the effects of macro mining? Let’s start with the obvious:





So to condense your argument:

Since there are things that are within EVEs rules which are against the rules in other games, why shouldn't we do things that are against the rules in EVE?


insightful but lacking the all important comb over...

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2011.01.21 19:16:00 - [24]
 

People who rob and steal from you in game are using game mechanics to get ahead. They are doing their dirty deeds IN the game, USING the game.
Macroers are getting ahead by using forces OUTSIDE of the game.

Furthermore, macroers are affecting the market, and screwing it up for everyone else who plays by the rules. They are also making isk hand over fist, and using that isk in game to buy whatever they want.

Macroers affect the market in two ways. They flood it with minerals at cheap prices, screwing over everyone else that has worked hard for that stuff. Then they use their alts to buy whatever they want, at whatever price they want, making goods more expensive in some cases, and cheaper in other cases. They also cause huge market fluctuations.
I will use the Raven as a simple example. The Raven can range anywhere from 70 mil to 90 mil, depending on the region, and depending on when you look. A 20 mil fluctuation is massive, and hurts everyone. This makes markets impossible to predict, and long and short term profits also impossible to predict. This adds an element to corporation management that shouldn't be there.

These are the reasons I don't like macroers that don't RMT.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.01.21 19:44:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 21/01/2011 19:48:59
Originally by: rock crawlermne
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
The people who use macros "have". The people who don't use them "have not". People will inherently hate anyone else who has more than them, or has to work less to accomplish the same as them.


Can it be as simple as jealousy?


Since I'm one of those that HATES unattended play and RMT in MMOs I can't be objective, but I don't think it's jealousy. For me, there are 2 major problems

First is that those who use macros, bots & RMT raise the bar of 'success'. Since there is no way to win an MMO, all we can do is to measure our success against everyone else, by whatever metric we feel is important. Be it isk in wallet, control of markets, control of space, or simply flying the biggest baddest toy on the block, having a string of bots at your service to get you more stuff, or RMTing for your goodies, means that those of us who choose to live by our own strengths have a harder time keeping up with the Joneses. I may be able to 'win' against you, but I can't win against you and your 5 farmer bots that play 23/7. If there's little or no chance of winning, why should I bother playing the game? It'd be like playing chess, but I start without my rooks and knights.

Second is when it changes the way the game is played. Warfare in EvE used to be about attrition. Small battles made a difference since you could wear on your opponents' resources and stores of materials. When cash and materials are free for all as long as the bots are out in force, the only effective method of combat becomes crushing force. Crush your enemy in one blow or the battle means nothing. Fail to crush your enemy, and he'll be just as strong next weekend thanks to his bots.

As I see it, EvE has picked up two new breeds of players: those that want to play in arena mode where the outcome of a battle has little or no meaning to the next battle, and those that are more interested in having their 'win' than they are in getting their 'win'. For those players, bots & RMT are a work around to the grind inherent to any MMO.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.21 20:09:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud

I've never said this to my friends, but I support Hulkageddon. Not beacause of the carebear grief (unfortuniate victims to this war) but because its real purpose...to keep the botting in check.

think of it, without CCP'S help, the community has found a way to balance out the bots and keep them paranoid of being ganked....very kewl +1 to the game.
I agree with you thuogh, the best andswer would be a better solution to makeing money and getting minerals.


Not really. The bots are a convenient excuse but hulkageddon don't target them more than real miners.

Seeing how (at least reading the forums) a big number of bots macrorat in 0.0 drone regions it is pretty useless going after people mining in high sec.

The hate for bots is a mixed thing:
- hate for RMTers;
- hate for people botting for personal use (but when the player is doing it himself he find a lot of excuse)
- hate for anyone that don't play like you and so claiming he is a botter
- hate because they don't "bleed" when you cut them, so it is not "fun" to kill them
and so on.


rock crawlermne
Posted - 2011.01.21 20:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
The solution is not to use a bot but to change the game to make it playable by humans.



I really like this statement

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.01.21 20:44:00 - [28]
 

WOW I'm glad I got such a huge responce.

Durnin Stormbrow made a very good point.

I can honestly tell you that I hadn't looked at it like that.


huggypants
Posted - 2011.01.21 20:57:00 - [29]
 

1. Not sure if you're a troll.
2. Botting is cheating.
3. Macroing is botting.
4. Botting is cheating.


Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.01.22 00:43:00 - [30]
 

Mostly it's just people without any ideas of their own jumping on band-waggons and being angry bout dumb ****.

At the end of the day it happens to a miner when they realise they've wasted 6 months on a boring mechanic that does not make much isk.

Meanwhile their mate makes twice the isk with no effort and gets to blow **** up and collect tears all day.

Either they quit or persist and become an anti-macro evangalist and then quit.


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