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Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2005.01.24 06:31:00 - [31]
 

Also, if you see small sigs, then click properties, they maigicly return to their intended size, whats up with that?


MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.01.24 10:09:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Pandora Panda

Yeah, its too bad IE has enough market share that they can just tell IEEE to get bent over all of those pesky standards and force most web designers to cater to a non-compliant browser.



I am a web designer and they didn't force me to do anything. It's much rather my responsibility to cater to what the target audience is using. Also, did you ever get the idea that IE has its market share because it's just a good browser that reliably works in 90% of the cases while other browsers just don't?

Surely other browsers have their advantages and especially firefox can be considered a good competition and a good program, but the die hard "firefox 4tw, IE sux and Microsoft employees eat children" mentality just sucks ass IMO.
To me as a webdesigner, Firefox has yet to prove that it can do better than IE, because when developing stuff for FF I constantly have to change my workflow.

Originally by: Pandora Panda
FireFox is free. SP2 costs a legal copy of Windows, which is what, $150?


I gotta buy a car to use wheels? Wtf?! This is clearly another evil Microsoft scam. They should be concordokened really...

Quote:
Also, if you see small sigs, then click properties, they maigicly return to their intended size, whats up with that?


Bad scripting... that`s what`s up with it Wink

Originally by: "j0"
... Except the broken feature in question is done using JavaScript which, from what i can tell after quick search, was originally created/introduced by Netscape ... so if anyone was ever telling that IEEE thing to get bent over, it was --ironically enough-- the company indirectly 'responsible' for the Firefox browser?


That reminds me of why I avoid JS whenever I can Laughing I mean... isn't JS like one of the main reasons why pretty much any browser has built-in popup and/or JS blocker support these days?

w0rmy
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2005.01.24 10:22:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: w0rmy on 24/01/2005 10:23:23
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar

It's much rather my responsibility to cater to what the target audience is using.



I would have thought it would be your responsibility to conform to internet standards.

Without IEEE and standards, the internet would fail to work. The entire system is based around all users/software/hardware conforming to these standards.


If you write code, which does not conform to standards, then you are part of the problem, regardless of whether 'It works in IE' or not.

Amagine if every network vendor decided to have its own implimentation of IP... arghhh actually, lets not.

Sybylle
Amarr
ICE is Coming to EVE
Tau Ceti Federation
Posted - 2005.01.24 12:04:00 - [34]
 

Start a new year !
Go for Firefox !
Kill IE >:D

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.01.24 12:23:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: w0rmy
Edited by: w0rmy on 24/01/2005 10:23:23
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar

It's much rather my responsibility to cater to what the target audience is using.



I would have thought it would be your responsibility to conform to internet standards.



No it`s not. My responsibility... and my job as a webdesigner is delivering websites my customers and their target audience are happy with. I do not get payed for making websites conform to standards.


ParMizaN
Body Count Inc.
The Requiem
Posted - 2005.01.24 14:57:00 - [36]
 

only happened to me after the sig resizings .. on both my computers which both run ie :/ *never ever* had this problem before the fix tho so Cool

Seth Killbain
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2005.01.24 15:08:00 - [37]
 

I run firefox as my main browser, works nicely without many problems, but on occassion wont display some sites correctly or at all, it isnt perfect, far from it, but its good.
I use IE, when FF goes mad, and both ptograms work well with this site. Could be summat to do with your cache or maybe some scripts have borked up, give it a good ol fashioned service and good luck.Rolling Eyes

Pandora Panda
Caldari
Posted - 2005.01.24 15:33:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Pandora Panda on 24/01/2005 15:35:19
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
I am a web designer and they didn't force me to do anything. It's much rather my responsibility to cater to what the target audience is using. Also, did you ever get the idea that IE has its market share because it's just a good browser that reliably works in 90% of the cases while other browsers just don't?
Yeah, IE's dominince has everything to do with quality and nothing to do with the fact that its packed with windows, and most people dont care/dont know enough to switch.
Quote:
Originally by: Pandora Panda
FireFox is free. SP2 costs a legal copy of Windows, which is what, $150?
I gotta buy a car to use wheels? Wtf?! This is clearly another evil Microsoft scam. They should be concordokened really..
If, lets say, you only use windows for EVE and dont want to purchase a legal copy for $300, then SP2 will not install for you. Which means that you'd need to purchase a legal copy of it, or obtain a copy of SP2 through the same channels as your copy of windows.

Teela Belwynn
Yakuza Corp
THE R0NIN
Posted - 2005.01.24 15:39:00 - [39]
 

daaaaaaamn this community is boring Laughing

only a tiny tiny fraction has any sense of humor. boooh

Discorporation
Amarr
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.01.24 15:43:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar


No it`s not. My responsibility... and my job as a webdesigner is delivering websites my customers and their target audience are happy with. I do not get payed for making websites conform to standards.




It appears to me that the wider the audience the site reaches, the more pleased the customer is.

Might be me, though Wink

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2005.01.24 16:12:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
No it`s not. My responsibility... and my job as a webdesigner is delivering websites my customers and their target audience are happy with. I do not get payed for making websites conform to standards.



Making a website conform to standards does not limit it, that is the arguement of a lazy designer.
Your website should have basic functionality in any browser. Enhanced features are fine so long as their are alternatives.
Many websites are suffering now because they depended on browser technology which has since been compromised, and is likely to be disabled.

Given the choice between a spiffeh site or a safe site, most people would choose the latter.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.01.24 16:16:00 - [42]
 

"Given the choice between a spiffeh site or a safe site, most people would choose the latter."

I suspect those proverbial 'most people' couldn't tell a safe site from non-safe site even if you smacked them over the head with it. ;s

(and yeah, am one of them.... >>;

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.01.24 16:19:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 24/01/2005 16:24:18
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar


No it`s not. My responsibility... and my job as a webdesigner is delivering websites my customers and their target audience are happy with. I do not get payed for making websites conform to standards.




It appears to me that the wider the audience the site reaches, the more pleased the customer is.

Might be me, though Wink


That's true, but harsh deadlines and ever changing standards require you to make a compromise every now and then. It's not like we don't try optimizing for the various platforms though Smile

Internet Explorer has it's drawbacks, but it has proven to be very reliable because despite all the refusal of the die hard FF fanboys MS provide an excellent support for their products.
When working on Firefox we often run into problems where a lack of documentation and support leaves you no choice but to optimize for IE instead of FF, especially when the flash plugin - which is pretty much the first thing people ask for when they come to us - performs about 40% slower on FF.

edit:

oh well... is it just me or is this going OT big time? Embarassed

edit 2:

The "safe site <> spiffy site" argument doesn't bother me. When it's not at least reasonably safe we don't publish, ever.


Shimatu
Caldari
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2005.01.24 16:22:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar


No it`s not. My responsibility... and my job as a webdesigner is delivering websites my customers and their target audience are happy with. I do not get payed for making websites conform to standards.




It appears to me that the wider the audience the site reaches, the more pleased the customer is.

Might be me, though Wink


dont be silly. all MaiLina has to do is get a page that works in ie. gets paid for that, and sod the customer if some of their users cant access the webpage because they use firefox... so those people go back to using ie (even though in many cases its inferior), and then more people are using ie so he can justify only writing pages for ie even more...
yeh. standards are silly. we should all use microsoft stuff. it clearly r0x0rs.

Valentine Keen
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2005.01.24 16:50:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Pandora Panda
Edited by: Pandora Panda on 24/01/2005 15:35:19
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
I am a web designer and they didn't force me to do anything. It's much rather my responsibility to cater to what the target audience is using. Also, did you ever get the idea that IE has its market share because it's just a good browser that reliably works in 90% of the cases while other browsers just don't?
Yeah, IE's dominince has everything to do with quality and nothing to do with the fact that its packed with windows, and most people dont care/dont know enough to switch.
Quote:
Originally by: Pandora Panda
FireFox is free. SP2 costs a legal copy of Windows, which is what, $150?
I gotta buy a car to use wheels? Wtf?! This is clearly another evil Microsoft scam. They should be concordokened really..
If, lets say, you only use windows for EVE and dont want to purchase a legal copy for $300, then SP2 will not install for you. Which means that you'd need to purchase a legal copy of it, or obtain a copy of SP2 through the same channels as your copy of windows.


This is a totally invalid argument. Theft is theft, there's no justification for it just because it's expensive or because it's software.

TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2005.01.25 14:16:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: TornSoul on 25/01/2005 14:18:12
Originally by: Shimatu
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar


No it`s not. My responsibility... and my job as a webdesigner is delivering websites my customers and their target audience are happy with. I do not get payed for making websites conform to standards.




It appears to me that the wider the audience the site reaches, the more pleased the customer is.

Might be me, though Wink


dont be silly. all MaiLina has to do is get a page that works in ie. gets paid for that, and sod the customer if some of their users cant access the webpage because they use firefox... so those people go back to using ie (even though in many cases its inferior), and then more people are using ie so he can justify only writing pages for ie even more...
yeh. standards are silly. we should all use microsoft stuff. it clearly r0x0rs.


Standards are *great*.

--- If only all the browsers would comply with them ---

What does, IE, NN, Mozilla, FF, Opera, Safari, Konqueror(the odd one out) etc etc all have in common?

Not one of them - not a single one of them - comply 100% with the (w3c) standards.

*Thats* the problem.

Depending on budget/time/customer demand&need a (professional) web developer will *try* to make the site 'safe' in as many as these as possible.

A webdeveloper does *not* have the 'luxury' of picking and choosing which browser *he* thinks is best. It's utterly irrelevant, he (in a perfect world) has to support them all.

A daunting task in itself...

And often the overhead in manhours, is simply not worth the effort of 'supporting' those last couple of percent of viewers.

Least common denominator - You bet, everytime money is involved.

So in everyday work the discussion of which browser is 'best' is moot for a webdeveloper (unfortunatly).

Basically they are all c.rap, just in each their own ways - for not complying with the standards.

</rant>

Edit : I forgot... What prompted this <rant> was someone arguing that webdevelopers should simply stick to the standards and all would be well..
Well duh! Wont do you any good as long as the damn browsers dont...

marcopollo
Posted - 2005.01.25 14:48:00 - [47]
 

Prompts me to try a sig for first time so I made one - but how do you post it Embarassed


Tar om
Minmatar
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2005.01.25 15:29:00 - [48]
 

Windows is just for games.

If you want a proper computer use a *nix. Then go into PC world and see how much software you just don't need anymore.. and spend the difference on a new monitor :O)

LNX Flocki
La Morte Noire
Posted - 2005.01.25 15:36:00 - [49]
 

Now that this thread has been derailed several times already: Love your login name Teela Laughing

Noriath
Posted - 2005.01.25 15:58:00 - [50]
 

Alternative browser fanboys usually have no idea what thei're talking about, they just know that whatever they have is sooooo great.

Fact is, all browsers suck, might as well use the one that came with the OS.

RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.25 16:12:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Alternative browser fanboys usually have no idea what thei're talking about, they just know that whatever they have is sooooo great.

Fact is, all browsers suck, might as well use the one that came with the OS.
I cant even browse the web anymore without tabbed browsing and mouse gestures. And popup killing. And no ActiveX prompts for spyware.

After using opera and firefox for so long, I just dont have the ability to go back to IE. I keep trying to do mouse gestures.

Karhig Duruckhai
Caldari
Brosefs
Posted - 2005.01.25 16:21:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
Originally by: Noriath
Alternative browser fanboys usually have no idea what thei're talking about, they just know that whatever they have is sooooo great.

Fact is, all browsers suck, might as well use the one that came with the OS.
I cant even browse the web anymore without tabbed browsing and mouse gestures. And popup killing. And no ActiveX prompts for spyware.

After using opera and firefox for so long, I just dont have the ability to go back to IE. I keep trying to do mouse gestures.


Are they standard compliant mouse gestures? You'll be in trouble if they're not.

RollinDutchMasters
Gallente
Ordnance Delivery Services Inc.
Posted - 2005.01.25 16:30:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Karhig Duruckhai
Are they standard compliant mouse gestures? You'll be in trouble if they're not.
Like most good pieces of software, theyre user-definable.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2005.01.25 17:13:00 - [54]
 

My problem with Firefox is it adds nothing useful while being full of security bugs and problems. IE 6 with XP SP2 and fully patched is far more stable and secure. At my workplace all the Internet security problems and bugs have been on the firebox browser PCs. None on the Internet explorer PCs have had major problems.

Time to swap back to IE. Firefox wont be on many PC's in my work place much longer.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2005.01.25 17:51:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
My problem with Firefox is it adds nothing useful while being full of security bugs and problems. IE 6 with XP SP2 and fully patched is far more stable and secure. At my workplace all the Internet security problems and bugs have been on the firebox browser PCs. None on the Internet explorer PCs have had major problems.

Time to swap back to IE. Firefox wont be on many PC's in my work place much longer.



Start naming them.

The primary reason I switched to Firefox was when fully patched and up to date installations of IE (note, I use Windows 2000, which doesn't get the marvelous XP SP2, and don't plan on changing my OS until I'm moving to 64 bit processing) started installing viruses on my machines, even through fully up to date firewalls, and the breach wasn't fixed for months.

Anyone remember that little spat?

Both my home and work machines got it too. My home machine got nailed by an add banner that was run on http://www.pvponline.com/ and my work computer bought it when I was doing a work related web search on on Word Visual Basic scripting, by another add banner, so it's not exactly like I was cruzing for "unmentionables" or downloading dirty files. I would just go to a site, the add banner would load, and virus scanner would go nuts.

I was not a happy customer.

Harry Voyager

Flashhart
Posted - 2005.01.25 18:44:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
My problem with Firefox is it adds nothing useful while being full of security bugs and problems. IE 6 with XP SP2 and fully patched is far more stable and secure. At my workplace all the Internet security problems and bugs have been on the firebox browser PCs. None on the Internet explorer PCs have had major problems.


My experience is at odds with yours. Our standard browser at work is IE (one of our critical systems requires IE as it runs using ActiveX controls, so not much choice). I run Firefox out of choice at home, and use it fairly often at work (as do many others in the technical type teams).

I've found that IE is anything but stable. Although many times this might be blamed on the ActiveX controls we have to use, it will also regularly crash on non-ActiveX pages and seems to use up memory like there is no tomorrow (especially when it spawns new windows). Personally I have never had firefox crash on me, not even once.

As far as security problems go, I've found the PCs with the problem normally belong to sales people, the PCs which run forever with no problems normally belong to techies.

Domalais
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2005.01.25 19:59:00 - [57]
 

Firefox is not more secure than IE. It is simply a less popular target for those trying to prey on web surfers.



So go ahead, get more people using Firefox.

Juniper
Posted - 2005.01.25 20:02:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Domalais
Firefox is not more secure than IE. It is simply a less popular target for those trying to prey on web surfers.

So go ahead, get more people using Firefox.


You have to consider the "Microsoft element" here too. Bill Gates can give as much as he wants to the African children (and I'm glad he is), but the bottom line is that hackers don't like Microsoft and never will - and will always target their software.

Whether it's more secure or not is a moot point really, IMO...

Sekhen
Majestic-5
Posted - 2005.01.25 21:19:00 - [59]
 

I use the nifty browser "Opera". Works like a charm!
The ONLY thing I ever had any problem with is my bank, wich only allow IE and Netscape to enter.
Part from that, 100% results every time!

Opera is not a free browser. It has a small advertisement thingie that goes away if you buy a license.

Link to an altarnative browser

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2005.01.25 22:00:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: "Avon"
Making a website conform to standards does not limit it, that is the arguement of a lazy designer.

...



None of today's browsers provide full w3c standard support. This fact alone makes it impossible for us to solely focus on standardized designs.
If we'd do that, we'd screw both us and our customers. This has nothing to do with lazyness, but much more with reality.

As I said earlier it's not like we don't try to optimize our stuff for all browsers, but we do not have the manpower and resources to guarantee 100% support for all available platforms. Usually we do a pretty good job at it but since we are realistic, we make it clear towards our customers that we can not provide full support for all platforms.

We let our customer choose the browser for which we will fully optimize the site/app and if it's his wish we gladly optimize for FF, Opera or whatever else he has in mind. According to credible statistics and our own experience however Internet Explorer reaches the absolute majority of today's internet users (> 70%), so after all the choice is pretty obvious and it'd be stupid to ignore IE.

"w3c fans" and those with plain hate towards Microsoft generally have one thing in common: They totally ignore reality.
In RL, Microsoft do provide an excellent browser with excellent customer/developer support that reaches the absolute majority of internet users while others just point their fingers at them screaming "not safe! MS is teh ebil!!" when their own products suffer from the very same problems as IE, or much worse, are a source of some of the problems in the first place.

Kudos to TornSoul btw. I couldn't agree more.



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