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blankseplocked Hybrid Rebalancing - response to CSM
 
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fenistil
Posted - 2011.01.16 11:59:00 - [1]
 

CSM has rightfully raised the question of Hybrid weapon damage, especially of Blaster ships during the CSM meeting. CCP's response was quite negligent in my opinion. CCP stated that blasters were intended to be close range but highest DPS platforms.
Let's do a little comparison between races:

Megathron:
2x1600 plate, EANM2x2, Adaptive Nano Plate, MFS, DCU, 3xTrimark
6xNeutron Blaster Cannon II
131k EHP, 724 turret DPS
Range: 4.5+13

Megathron vs. Abaddon
Abaddon is capable of 900+ turret DPS with all on LVL5 with an effective hitpoints of 130k whereas the Megathron is capable of 724 with similar EHP. (EFT values used, if needed I'll post fits) What you think who would win? Blasters do less... Adbaddon has a range of 25km (w/ fallow)

Megathron vs. Maelstrom
Similar EHP, 130k, fitted for buffer shield. DPS: 781 from turrets only, range: 3.9+39km, over 40km! By the time a megathron gets in range, he is in half armor, esp that Mael can MWD faster than the Mega.

Megathron vs. Caldari BSes
Well yes, Torp ravens can out out 1000+ DPS just from the torps themselves with an increased range, however they are hard to fit to have nice EHP.

This little comparison is just to underline the fact that even tho Blasters were intended to be the highest DPS weapons, there are many ships and weapons that can outdo it in many ways. Range, DPS, Volley, Energy Consumption. And below BS, how many times do you see blasters being used in PVP?

Right now I have no concept of how to better the situation however I'd like to read opinions.

Regards

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.01.16 13:54:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 16/01/2011 13:54:23
You need to account for ship speeds and tracking disruptors as well. If you want to talk about 1:1 fights with turret ships then you need to include these factors, because these dominate the fight more than the turrets do.

By including a tracking disruptor for each 1:1 match will the effective area of each turret shrink significantly, for some more than others, and the ships' speed will then decide who will win the fight. Include afterburners and micro warp drives and you will have to talk about how likely it is to get into each turret's effective area and how to stay there, before you can talk about raw DPS and eHP.

If you only compare the turrets 1:1 then you can only compare them statically and you will need to compare them at several different ranges. A static comparison, which does not include the speed of moving ships, any e-war, ship agility, ship resistances, etc., is of no use to real in-game fights.

What can be said is that some turrets are easier to handle than others. I.e. are lasers pretty easy to handle. What a laser ship may lack in speed and agility can be compensated by range, DPS and a sturdy tank. The same strategy cannot be applied to blaster boats, which is what many try to do. Many pilots fail to understand the importance of speed, agility and e-war over raw DPS and eHP when it comes to getting their blasters into range. The result is that they fail to apply any of their DPS and therefore increasing the DPS of blasters will then do just very little for them. Increasing the range of blasters will help, but will also make the weapon more similar to others and the pilot may just as easily choose to use a different ship and weapon altogether.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.01.16 14:37:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: fenistil
CSM has rightfully raised the question of Hybrid weapon damage, especially of Blaster ships during the CSM meeting. CCP's response was quite negligent in my opinion. CCP stated that blasters were intended to be close range but highest DPS platforms.
Let's do a little comparison between races:

Megathron:
2x1600 plate, EANM2x2, Adaptive Nano Plate, MFS, DCU, 3xTrimark
6xNeutron Blaster Cannon II
131k EHP, 724 turret DPS
Range: 4.5+13

Megathron vs. Abaddon
Abaddon is capable of 900+ turret DPS with all on LVL5 with an effective hitpoints of 130k whereas the Megathron is capable of 724 with similar EHP. (EFT values used, if needed I'll post fits) What you think who would win? Blasters do less... Adbaddon has a range of 25km (w/ fallow)

Megathron vs. Maelstrom
Similar EHP, 130k, fitted for buffer shield. DPS: 781 from turrets only, range: 3.9+39km, over 40km! By the time a megathron gets in range, he is in half armor, esp that Mael can MWD faster than the Mega.

Megathron vs. Caldari BSes
Well yes, Torp ravens can out out 1000+ DPS just from the torps themselves with an increased range, however they are hard to fit to have nice EHP.

This little comparison is just to underline the fact that even tho Blasters were intended to be the highest DPS weapons, there are many ships and weapons that can outdo it in many ways. Range, DPS, Volley, Energy Consumption. And below BS, how many times do you see blasters being used in PVP?

Right now I have no concept of how to better the situation however I'd like to read opinions.

Regards



Although i agree that hybrids need some improving, why does you mega only have 6 guns, and 1 mag stab?

boseo
Gallente
Azure Horizon
Posted - 2011.01.16 15:01:00 - [4]
 

I would also like to point out that as far as I can see Hybrid turrets (rail and blaster) can't change damage type. which makes them easier to protect from as you will always get thermal and kinetic damage from them. unlike lasers, missiles, and (from what I can tell) projectile turrets which can change damage type.

Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
Posted - 2011.01.16 15:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: boseo
I would also like to point out that as far as I can see Hybrid turrets (rail and blaster) can't change damage type. which makes them easier to protect from as you will always get thermal and kinetic damage from them. unlike lasers, missiles, and (from what I can tell) projectile turrets which can change damage type.


Lasers can't change damage types. Razz

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.01.16 17:03:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat
Lasers can't change damage types. Razz

That is right.

Furthermore do blasters come with the better damage type than lasers do.

Most pilots will try to compensate either for the EM damage weakness in their shield or for the explosive damage weakness in their armour before they increase the thermal and kinetic resistances in their ship's tank, leaving them both to be exploited by hybrid weapons.

Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
Posted - 2011.01.16 17:11:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat
Lasers can't change damage types. Razz

That is right.

Furthermore do blasters come with the better damage type than lasers do.

Most pilots will try to compensate either for the EM damage weakness in their shield or for the explosive damage weakness in their armour before they increase the thermal and kinetic resistances in their ship's tank, leaving them both to be exploited by hybrid weapons.


It's not quite that simple; hybrids tread the middle way between being good against armor and good against shields but are not amazing against either. In most situations you would be better off having either the kinetic/explosive combination of projectiles (fighting armor tanked ships) or the em/thermal combination of lasers (against shields), the sole advantage hybrids have is in an unanticipated fight - which is exactly what you don't want to get into.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.01.17 12:08:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat
It's not quite that simple; hybrids tread the middle way between being good against armor and good against shields but are not amazing against either. In most situations you would be better off having either the kinetic/explosive combination of projectiles (fighting armor tanked ships) or the em/thermal combination of lasers (against shields), the sole advantage hybrids have is in an unanticipated fight - which is exactly what you don't want to get into.

No, it is this simple. Most people do prepare and fill their resistance holes on their tanks. You just do not fly around in a shield tanked ship and have only i.e. 12% EM-resistance on your shield tank or 20%-explosive resistance on your armour tank. This only works for mission running and when you know which damage types are being dealt by the NPC ships.

EhonVonnre
Posted - 2011.01.17 12:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Whitehound

No, it is this simple. Most people do prepare and fill their resistance holes on their tanks. You just do not fly around in a shield tanked ship and have only i.e. 12% EM-resistance on your shield tank or 20%-explosive resistance on your armour tank. This only works for mission running and when you know which damage types are being dealt by the NPC ships.


You are right, it isn't that simple. Well... unless you are the one controlling the engagement. If you know you can come and go as you please there is no reason to fill the em/exp hole. (see Minmatar ships)

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.01.17 18:55:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: EhonVonnre
If you know you can come and go as you please there is no reason to fill the em/exp hole. (see Minmatar ships)

The famous last words of a pilot the second before he gets one-shotted.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.17 20:26:00 - [11]
 

Love the op's way of comparing a Tier2 BS with a Tier3 BS

Thing is a hyperion can fit 8 heavy neutrons with 2 mag stabs for 950+ dps with all level 5 skills.

Abaddon can't fit 8 Tachyon Beams for 770dps (2 heat sinks) without fitting mods and thats before trying to fit a tank + mwd.

Thats without drones e.t.c.

I would agree Gal are worse solo, with the support of tacklers to pin the enemy in place there are few more effective.

Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
Posted - 2011.01.17 20:31:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
Love the op's way of comparing a Tier2 BS with a Tier3 BS

Thing is a hyperion can fit 8 heavy neutrons with 2 mag stabs for 950+ dps with all level 5 skills.

Abaddon can't fit 8 Tachyon Beams for 770dps (2 heat sinks) without fitting mods and thats before trying to fit a tank + mwd.

Thats without drones e.t.c.

I would agree Gal are worse solo, with the support of tacklers to pin the enemy in place there are few more effective.



Not the best comparison on your part either though; Tachyons are Beam Lasers and are Long Range Weapons, whereas Blasters are Short Range weapons.

If you compare an Abbadon fitting 8 Mega Pulses, not only does it fit, but you get 916 DPS with 3 heat sinks and faction ammo. The Hyperion has major issues fitting Neutrons with a decent tank that uses it's armor repair bonus along with a MWD and Cap Booster.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.17 20:54:00 - [13]
 

Meh, my apologises, I don't use scummy amarr weapons Cool


Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.18 00:53:00 - [14]
 

I have no problem with blasters getting a massive boost to damage (even double or more) as long as they actually become short range weapons.

Right now with a couple tracking enhancers they can hit 5.8/20 (any standard disruptor pilot) with antimatter, if they chuck in null they can hit 15/26 over 40km. If you keep your current range and boost them they'll be stepping all over amarr/minmatar range territory or the dmg boost will be pathetically small.

As an extreme example lets say for the neutron blaster you increase damage to 2.5 x current and tracking to 3 x current. The range is dropped to 8/4 base or 4/4 with antimatter. I think something like this would make blasters a unique and if used properly a very powerful weapon while still leaving ways to counter it.

More realistically something between this extreme and what we currently have would probably be a good point to go for.


 

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