open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Is something fundamentally wrong with the way most corp operate?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.01.14 14:06:00 - [31]
 

Depends 100% on the corp and how it's run, but I will say this on the subject:

People are greedy bastards. It's not just the CEOs. I've run several corps over the years, and noticed a few things tend to always be true:

1)If you're not constantly running/planning ops, people will whine.
2)People assume you have more than enough money than they do, and should therefore have no problem spending some of it on them.
3)The ceo is expected to pay for corp expenses out of his own wallet, because:
4)Any and all taxes are supposed to go 100% back into the corp members wallets
5)Despite the fact that planning ops, recruiting, getting/setting up POSs, diplomatic crap etc takes time that could be spent making money, the ceo is expected to do all of these things for free, because why should anyone pay to be in a well-run corp?


That's the main reason I've long since given up on running corps properly. Every iteration of corps I've run nets me MAYBE one legit decent player, who ends up sticking with me anyway (my last corp was essentially just me and 2 other guys running around shooting things, and the one before that the CEO was nothing more than the guy who hit the wardec button)

As for WHY they can't be run like a real business, it comes down moreso to how money is made in eve. The only people who benefit at all from working in groups are players who've not been around long enough to solo things. This is especially true when you consider that lvl 4s are the best highsec isk grind there is, and they're **** easy to do on your own once you know what you're doing. And out of curiosity, how exactly do you propose that corps turn a profit in order to pay their members? IRL the wage you get is rarely worth more (or even as much as) the work you do. The whole thing that decides how many people get hired/how much pay those people get is how much their work is worth in terms of $/hour How else would businesses stay afloat? The reason this works IRL and not so much in eve is that in eve it's easy to get all the tools you need to make money on your own.

IRL let's say you want to make a car. The parts, plans, and materials required to do so are so far apart, and so expensive to produce in any small amount, that there's no viable way to turn a profit if you're looking to build some on your own. Because of this, making a car requires the collaborative effort of hundreds of people, and in such cases it makes sense to pay them to work together.

In eve you buy the BPC, either buy or mine the minerals, and build the ship. Easy. Soloable. No reason to involve other people for reasons other than enjoying the company.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2011.01.14 14:24:00 - [32]
 

The only thing wrong with the Corp system in EVE is the peeps using it.


Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2011.01.14 14:50:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri
The only thing wrong with the Corp system in EVE is the peeps using it.




This.
I get free replacement ships for pvp, a few POS to leave my ship in dangerous places, a share of all corp profit, im never forced to do anything i do not want to do and all this for 5% tax.

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Casual ********* Very Happy


Hmm, even that is censored. Now words that don't exist get filtered out. I wonder how much this censor guy is getting paid.

Rek Seven
Gallente
Zandathorn Industries
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:23:00 - [35]
 

I donít get it because it sounds like the OP is asking whether all CEOís should be made to run their corp in the same way...

I have only been in a few corps and neither of them has treated me like cattle. In fact, the first corp i joined made me a director after a couple months...

The corp Iím in now is awesome and they have helped me and a lot of new players learn and grow within eve and they donít even have a tax.

The problem with this game is who easy it is for spies and corp thiefís to exploit the game as there is ZERO accountability for their actions as almost everyone has an alt in this game... how is that fair?

If you donít like your corp, find a new one.

SkinSin
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:31:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: SkinSin on 14/01/2011 16:31:54
edit: removed obvious failure.

Seems like the censorship people have tried to get around the swear filter more than anyone else...

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:34:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 14/01/2011 16:44:06
Edited by: Joss56 on 14/01/2011 16:36:45
My personal experience with corps is absolutly catastrophic. Only one month after I started the game the corp get wardecced, i didn't even knew exactly what that was, while CEO and Offs where playing station and Connect/disconnect games i was just missioning has usual wondering that has noob there was some kind of tolerance from other players.

Gess what, killed/poded, in the same week lost over 250M witch was all i had at that time and never, i realy mean never, in the alliance chan or corp chan i've got a single help.
I'ts someone outside that i didn't even knew at that time that payed me the implants and gave me some isk untill i could reimbourse him (forever thank you Ijifrr)

So what interest for me going in some corp? -they ask me my full API, tax my bounties, expect from me to invest my wallet in ships to defend territory or whatever and what do i get in return?

I'm pretty sure there are a few good corps that take care of their members and could give me the will to join them right now but until i know one of them you can rase NPC corps tax to 50% i'm still wining more than be in a random **** corp.

At scoop is offen to see 650people connected, you can discuss with some of them, you can have some advices you can have help for your fits and some even give you good tips to get more isk or help you in other ways. All i can expect more from some PC corp is some respect for my investment and that trust is in both ways.

Edit: Somewhere between new tools but also rules, it's realy difficult to choose between NPC or PC corps, most part of PC corps are clearly not interesting.

Hurtado JaSett
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:38:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Rek Seven
I donít get it because it sounds like the OP is asking whether all CEOís should be made to run their corp in the same way...If you donít like your corp, find a new one.


Have difficulty reading much? The OP clearly stated:

Originally by: Sky Orcagna
Let's be clear, dictatorships and ruthless tyrannies are a big part of the EVE universe and that's as it should be. But even ruthless dictators ought to have more options at their disposal than EVE currently offers.


Seems pretty clear he was asking for some additional corp management tools more than anything else.

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:55:00 - [39]
 

Trust me. Actually i dont care if you do or not. Some corps simply kick too much ass and im extremely proud of mine.

The vast majority are drek though. In all honesty for our size id wage billions on the fact we are easily in the top 10 corps for our size based on pvp/member benefits. Name of my corp? Not a chance. This statement is me voicing a love for my corp. We dont need more peeps.

Vynel Mortes
Posted - 2011.01.14 17:10:00 - [40]
 

As a CEO in the game we take the time to pay out our members bi weekly for the work they put in in addition we offer ship replacement as well as Mod and Cap Ships for those working with us.

All members in our corp get a vote on the major descisions. The reason we take this care is that all of us have served under CEO's that hae had the attitude that everything in the corp is mine, i paid to start it. No payouts for directors but expectations that the Directors will pay in on a monthly basis to make the corp more money.

While I agree that there needs to be a certain investment investment needs a return on it.

So both types of corps exsist I will say there is alot more work involved in running a corp like a business so that does deter some CEO's.

seleka
Posted - 2011.01.14 17:20:00 - [41]
 

If you're unhappy just start your very own business. Preferably after recruiting some rl friends to eve. ;)

However I agree that some more corp tools for managing employments would be a great addition to the game. This would open up more immersive gameplay for sure.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2011.01.14 17:25:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Where exactly in this grand scheme of things would all the "PvP ship replacement schemes" fit into ? Quite a few 0.0 corps DO have them.


Some, sure, but there's less and less every day. The reason they're not more common is because the average player just seems tickled pick to be a member of a corp/alliance. In most they ask a lot of their members, but the members are afraid to ask anything in return. They're supposed to be employed, but the only one getting paid is the CEO.

Originally by: Akita T
Or what about corp-sponsored capital ships ? Sometimes even including the skills and full fit, not just the ship.
How about the fact that "security" and "convenience" are a quite tangible benefits too ? Especially for 0.0 dwellers in alliance-controlled space, doubly so for outpost systems.


Please direct me to where this happens. I'm running out of subcap skills to train on my main, and it would be a good reason to move to 0.0 finally.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.01.14 19:57:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 14/01/2011 20:17:43
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
You just likened the ship replacement scheme to a paycheque.

I really didn't. I likened it to benefits like a company car and such. I merely said afterwards (unrelated to the ship replacement comment) it would be nice if we would GET a paycheque system introduced by CCP.
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Some, sure, but there's less and less every day. The reason they're not more common is because the average player just seems tickled pick to be a member of a corp/alliance. In most they ask a lot of their members, but the members are afraid to ask anything in return. They're supposed to be employed, but the only one getting paid is the CEO.
Please direct me to where this happens. I'm running out of subcap skills to train on my main, and it would be a good reason to move to 0.0 finally.

I cannot comment on how much less common such things are nowadays, but they used to be very common not such a long time ago.
My brother used to play slightly more than me, and a while ago he was in Wildly Inappropriate, where such a PvP ship replacement scheme was running quite smoothly even for T2 ships. As for the capship thing, I've had former corpmembers (or other friendly pilots that were not in our corp) that moved to various 0.0 alliances (so it's not just a lucky shot of picking the one right alliance), and almost all of them ended up asking me every now and then about which racial capship to pick, because their alliances were desperate for reliable capship pilots, and they would get the skills and ship for free as long as it would be used mainly in alliance ops. Leaving the corp on good terms later on meant having done enough "service time" to justify the skill costs and also returning the capships before leaving.

Of course, such schemes might appear and disappear on a monthly basis for just about any corp, so my data is obsolete. I find it difficult to believe almost nobody does it anymore though.
A quick trip to the recruitment forums and a few hours of browsing SHOULD however yield at least some corps//alliances with an active PvP replacement scheme.
Also, it's pretty obvious, they're NOT going to sponsor capship skills and the ships themselves to newcomers, so that one won't be very much advertised, instead, it will be word-of-mouth and for reliable fleet members. If you don't hear about it yourself doesn't mean the practice isn't common... try to ask some friends in larger alliances (if you have any).

In my eyes, a corp that asks a lot of their members but offers next to nothing in return is crap. And of course, just as in real-life, the crap:good ratio is usually around 90:10. But there are plenty of warning signs. Stuff like high corp rates with very little or no "comfortable and profitable living space", lack of corp-PvP ship replacement programs or anything similar, lack of accountability for spending of corp funds and so on and so forth.
A good corp will either assist most of its veteran members as much as possible (newbies MIGHT get a bit neglected at first, but that's relatively normal, still, even newbies should qualify for some PvP ship replacement deals)... or will ask very little of all its members to begin with (mine subscribes to the latter approach, and I'd like to think we're a relatively nice corp). Of course, the latter is completely unfeasible for 0.0 corps, and only suitable for highsec ones.
Razz

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2011.01.14 20:38:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Feilamya on 14/01/2011 20:38:02
Originally by: TimMc
Edited by: TimMc on 14/01/2011 08:18:38
You do realise that in real life, corporations own everything you produce under their watch.

So basically in eve terms, you would want 100% taxation, all ore from mining to corp and market orders would have to be under the corporation rather than individual.

Then, with all that isk that the members cannot see, the corporation would pay out wages.

This would actually work, if it wasn't so easy to acquire ISK and other wealth solo without any risk or considerable effort.

Capitalism would be an interesting addition to this game, as it would also give criminals a purpose other than killboard whoring and griefing.

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.01.14 20:48:00 - [45]
 

Wage ordinary grunts can expect in alliances is their insurance money from corp sponsored ships. But you are still losing since you are using your time to support the corp, which is infinitely more valuable. Pretty similar compared to real world, except that on the whole you seem to get even less value for your time in EVE. Cool

Even many corps that seem successful are still horrible houses of cards that only work since their area of space is comfortable and easy to live in. As soon as pressure is applied these corps fail hard.

Ohishi
Caldari
Covert Activities
Posted - 2011.01.14 20:59:00 - [46]
 

What you need to do is place the corp tax to 100%. After that all money made by certain activities goes into the pool for you to buy ships and fittings and whatnot. Then you setup a corp hanger somewhere so that all the people in the corp can loot it for what they need or want, and you give everyone director status so that no matter who is online they can do almost everything the CEO can do.

It's like you aren't a character anymore but an entire corp, and it works great for all activities.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.01.14 21:11:00 - [47]
 

Man, sucks to be in your corps.

**** i make like, 1.2 billion a month just for being me in my corp, and that doesn't count ship replacements, alliance supplied dictors, hictors, logistics, commandships and subsidized supercaps.

You just picked the wrong corps brah.

Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar
Nomadic Asylum
Posted - 2011.01.14 21:22:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ohishi
What you need to do is place the corp tax to 100%. After that all money made by certain activities goes into the pool for you to buy ships and fittings and whatnot. Then you setup a corp hanger somewhere so that all the people in the corp can loot it for what they need or want, and you give everyone director status so that no matter who is online they can do almost everything the CEO can do.

It's like you aren't a character anymore but an entire corp, and it works great for all activities.


That would last all but a week before someone steals the lot and the whole corp is SOL.

After running a corporation for over a year I can honestly say its the most annoying and easiest way to lose interest in this game.

For most 0.0 pvp corps or pvp corps in general a payout system just wont work. For one the corporation itself doesn't actually make any income except off corp tax which isn't alot. If the corp moon mines then yes it could do a payout however depending on finances it would be alot of effort and not really worth it for those receiving it. Where as doing a ship replacement program or doing cap sponsorship is alot easier to maintain then payouts. You also run into the issue of whats fair to pay out. Since not everyone in a corporation gives the same amount you can't just do a even split. This also becomes a major issue the larger the corporation becomes.

Now a payout system can and does work if you are a small corporation or a industrial corp because then you have a better means of monitoring activity as well as the fact you are actually producing the income and losses are generally kept to a minimum.

Honestly I do hope that the corporation system does get tweaked. Maybe not structuring wise but just role wise. Since the larger the corporation gets the more of a pain it is to manage as well as the risk increases.

Ohishi
Caldari
Covert Activities
Posted - 2011.01.14 23:58:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Originally by: Ohishi
What you need to do is place the corp tax to 100%. After that all money made by certain activities goes into the pool for you to buy ships and fittings and whatnot. Then you setup a corp hanger somewhere so that all the people in the corp can loot it for what they need or want, and you give everyone director status so that no matter who is online they can do almost everything the CEO can do.

It's like you aren't a character anymore but an entire corp, and it works great for all activities.


That would last all but a week before someone steals the lot and the whole corp is SOL.

After running a corporation for over a year I can honestly say its the most annoying and easiest way to lose interest in this game.

For most 0.0 pvp corps or pvp corps in general a payout system just wont work. For one the corporation itself doesn't actually make any income except off corp tax which isn't alot. If the corp moon mines then yes it could do a payout however depending on finances it would be alot of effort and not really worth it for those receiving it. Where as doing a ship replacement program or doing cap sponsorship is alot easier to maintain then payouts. You also run into the issue of whats fair to pay out. Since not everyone in a corporation gives the same amount you can't just do a even split. This also becomes a major issue the larger the corporation becomes.

Now a payout system can and does work if you are a small corporation or a industrial corp because then you have a better means of monitoring activity as well as the fact you are actually producing the income and losses are generally kept to a minimum.

Honestly I do hope that the corporation system does get tweaked. Maybe not structuring wise but just role wise. Since the larger the corporation gets the more of a pain it is to manage as well as the risk increases.
They just need to fix the corp interface in general. It has been garbage since beta and honestly the worst part of the game. Any CEO can agree with me on that.

Did I mention that all of my corp is also my alts? I am not Ohishi, I am Apocalypse Reign. Some people get mad at that, some people are doing the same thing. I figure though eventually I will start an empire and make an alliance. For the time being though being a one man corp with many different characters within is perfect. I just wish FW was more controllable. We are a Cal native corp with our bastard child Gal megadomi gank pilot that does weird things with moons. I think everyone should do what I did. It's much less stressful and if you want to be apart of Apocalypse Reign please join. I'll take all your money from missions/ratting but if you have a market/research/mining alt it won't hurt you at all.

Buz Kilington
Posted - 2011.01.15 00:05:00 - [50]
 

I'll have you know, god damnit!, that my corp is awesome! They give me lots back!

For instance, in production, if I contract a Melted Nanoribbon, I get 6.5 mil back. That's 2 mil more than the average market price, because it goes in to T3 production, and produces T3 components that are sold for much more.

Also, they owned a WH when I first started, and they have let me move in, while they have moved out to a C3. It's me and one other guy living in this WH, and it's all ours. But when we need defence, they come to our aid. They obviously left all their POS modules behind for us. All we have to do is fuel it. That seems to be giving alot back I would think.

But yeah, there are alot of corps thta just take advantage and don't give much back. The larger alliances come to mind when on this train of thought.

Erin Eraser
Posted - 2011.01.15 02:06:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Erin Eraser on 15/01/2011 02:07:35
Originally by: Buz Kilington
I'll have you know, god damnit!, that my corp is awesome! They give me lots back!

For instance, in production, if I contract a Melted Nanoribbon, I get 6.5 mil back. That's 2 mil more than the average market price, because it goes in to T3 production, and produces T3 components that are sold for much more.

Also, they owned a WH when I first started, and they have let me move in, while they have moved out to a C3. It's me and one other guy living in this WH, and it's all ours. But when we need defence, they come to our aid. They obviously left all their POS modules behind for us. All we have to do is fuel it. That seems to be giving alot back I would think.

But yeah, there are alot of corps thta just take advantage and don't give much back. The larger alliances come to mind when on this train of thought.



Conversely, I dipped my hand into mining for about 4 months and discovered the wonderful world of slave labor. Where in the best corps I was paid for ABC ors at the highest Jita BUY order and some corps which paid 10 percent LESS THAN THAT which turned me to first start hating myself then to lash out on others like me by buying a SB alt and viciously murdering my corp mates, my CEO and even myself before I broke free in a mad rush to freedom 30 jumps from highsec in 0.0 with my HULK and a cargohold filled with Bistot.

Karann
Minmatar
Locus Evolved
Posted - 2011.01.15 03:20:00 - [52]
 

the major stumbling block is how would ccp assign isk to participation, if you are talking about equal splits for members you will always have some players who are on almost all day and others who run an hour or two.

WH's are a great example of this, it takes some effort and no doubt some players put in a lot more than others. how would you do this? time in space, time online, npc killed?

if you want a corp that runs on dividends it will always take observation from the ceo and directors, imo.

in the op i see a lot of questions and no suggestions.



Gevic
Posted - 2011.01.15 04:31:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Gevic on 15/01/2011 04:33:27
People need to keep in mind that the reason why many individuals join or form a corporation is to PvP and to participate in activities that will allow them to pvp more in the future. So ship replacement programs, logistic chains, etc. are considerably better compensation for them compared to a paycheck, that will have to be spent towards purchase goods to be used for pvp operations anyway, only now that those ships, modules, etc, will be more accessible and cheaper to boot, since they now have the ability to create those items themselves (and in greater quantities), instead of purchasing them from a market hub.

This can extend to people who are interested in the other aspects of EvE as well, from access to better ore, a pos network, company BPOs (well BPCs more likely), etc.

Keep in mind that in the real world, everything you produce is owned by the company, even (and especially) ideas, in return you receive payment for your services.

In EvE more often than not, a lot of the resources afforded to you by your corp can be used for your own ends. Granted you are expected to contribute to your corp, but as long as you aren't going to do something that would run contrary to your corps goals, I wouldn't think most corps would care.

I mean hell, I've heard of people using everything up to and including their corps' name for their own profit in EvE. Just try and get away with that IRL.

Panda Claw
principle of motion
Posted - 2011.01.16 00:19:00 - [54]
 

I suppose a 0.0 corp could take 100% npc tax and pay you back 90% of it to keep you happy and make you feel like your getting paid..

Vemmelig
Posted - 2011.01.16 04:21:00 - [55]
 

Are you emplying that we are plating in soviet space?

Spazmodiac
Posted - 2011.01.16 05:01:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Joss56
missioning has usual wondering that has noob there was


epic


Pages: 1 [2]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only