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HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.01.13 11:35:00 - [91]
 

Look Tippia I will try to keep it simple.This expansion requires that random people fleet up to fight the threat.And work as a team.

I'm going to speak for my self when I say that I'm not going to risk my ship,giving any kind of remote support when all that person has to do is get a gcc while im helping them,and I get concorded with out a warning what so ever.I have no way of knowing when that person is about to make a mistake or intends to make one.That would be asking me to "trust" every random person I support in the fleet to do the right thing.NO this is eve remember?

I understand if the person has a gcc already,thats fine.But if the person getting the gcc gets a warning why shouldn't I?

It's stupid and broken and needs to be reworked if they expect everyone to fleet up to fight these npc's.Without remote rep and support this expansion is worth nothing in my point of view.At least not in high sec.

Sorry if you don't understand but others do so I will leave it to them to explain it to you further if they wish.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.01.13 11:39:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: HeIIfire11
Look Tippia I will try to keep it simple.This expansion requires that random people fleet up to fight the threat.And work as a team.


No it doesn't. It provides an opportunity for this kind of play but it in no way, shape or form requires it.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.13 11:43:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 13/01/2011 11:49:11
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Part of the problem is that the pop up will do nothing as the cycle is under way and CONCORD will come.
True enough, but I still think that's a problem at the GCC warning level and how they affect the workings of the ship. Sure, the cut-off you talk about probably needs to happen, but it needs to happen at a different level than has previously been discussed.
Quote:
To make it work it should go in this order:

You want to fire -> Yes -> Cut-off of helping modules -> effect of the helping modules stop (so that the guy firing don't benefit from them when firing) -> guy fire -> CONCORD
The delay is rather unfortunate — it should probably rather be something along the lines of:

Guy activates guns → GCC warning propagates throughout the remote-support network and shuts everything off (unless people have previously said not to ask them about it) → Each person decides whether they want to participate in this potentially damaging act → If the guy fires, GCCs are handed out → Whatever happens happens and still active modules continue where they left off.

In other words, the warning pops up regardless of whether the original nutcase decides to go through with his action or not — it doesn't wait until he has decided before it warns everyone else.

The two problems are that this could be used to prematurely end cycles for those who don't want to participate, which could probably be abused in some way, and that the state of the cycles of those who do want to participate has to be stored while the module pauses during the query phase, which is something I don't think the current module mechanics support.
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Look Tippia I will try to keep it simple.This expansion requires that random people fleet up to fight the threat.And work as a team.
No. At the moment, it requires people to organise themselves to fight the threat. PUGs would be one way of doing this but there are obvious trust issues. But that's just it: PUGs would only be one way of doing it, not the only way, so they are in no way "required."
Quote:
I understand if the person has a gcc already,thats fine.But if the person getting the gcc gets a warning why shouldn't I?
And I'll make this simple for you in return: I don't particularly care about what happens to PUGs, but what I do care about is that you present the problem correctly so that it can be correctly fixed. What you just described is the exact problem, and what you should be focusing your efforts on: the fact that some GCC-inducing activities trigger warnings and some don't.

If you consider that "broken", then so be it, but it is only that part that is broken — nothing else. In fact, the other parts that have previously been described as broken are actually in perfect working order, and they work that way for very good reasons.

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.01.13 11:46:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 13/01/2011 11:49:36
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Look Tippia I will try to keep it simple.This expansion requires that random people fleet up to fight the threat.And work as a team.


No it doesn't. It provides an opportunity for this kind of play but it in no way, shape or form requires it.


Have you tried it on the test server?Have you seen how hard they are to kill and how much ewar they use?And how much dps they put out?If not I'd say do so and then come back and tell me that again.

Edit:And explain how else you are supposed to fight them off if not in a fleet with full support.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.13 11:54:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: HeIIfire11
And explain how else you are supposed to fight them off if not in a fleet with full support.
In a fleet with full support consisting of people that aren't random and that you can trust not to be asshats.

What Malc is contesting is the notion that you need to group up with randoms and that you will therefore have to constantly deal with 'tards who get everyone killed. This is not required.

SkinSin
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:08:00 - [96]
 

But isn't one of the aims of Incursion to get people to randomly fleet up in order to help defeat the incursion? That's certainly the idea that comes across in the dev blogs.

Jaina Sunspot
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:09:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Tippia
In a fleet with full support consisting of people that aren't random and that you can trust not to be asshats.

More difficult then assumed, I am in a 90odd person corp in a 300ish person Alliance. I log on and want good PVE what happens.

17 in corp.

Person 1: LVL 4's are easier
Person 2: Also LVL 4's
Person 3: Small Gang Roam
Person 4: Ratting
Person 5: Mining
Person 6: Sanctum
Person 7: Same Roam
Person 8: Ratting
Person 9: LVL Mission
Person 10: Jita Suicide Ganking
Person 11: AFK
Person 12: AFK
Person 13: AFK
Person 14: Alt of someone AFK
Person 15: Freighter Alt
Person 16: Sure can't fly Logi thou
Person 17: No Reason Given

Oh good time to go on a 40man Rolling Eyes

My girlfriend went back to WOW to try Caty and I watched her run the instance, on a que set up to pair people cross server there is a 30-40min wait for DPS while Healers are pretty much Insta Que. Add that to the expense of being a Logi Pilot, combined with death penalty, combined with the long SP it takes to be a good Logi, combined with the lackluster rewards...

See how people might imagin that this will be a dead feature available only to a few. Without Alts to find another Corp to do them and off the bat trust issues making it hard for them to accept me how does one expect a happy ending for the majority. Call it not an issue or working as intended, it doesn't matter, just another feature I will rarely see even thou I like it. ugh
Originally by: Tippia

What Malc is contesting is the notion that you need to group up with randoms and that you will therefore have to constantly deal with 'tards who get everyone killed. This is not required.

But hard to avoid unless you are in a big PVE Corp that cares about fun more then AFK'ing LVL 4's for comparable ISK Per Hour.

Not everyone has found this magic support structure of at least 5 active players we all trust online and wanting to do the same thing you do at the time you are available.

It merits dicussion.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:42:00 - [98]
 

Finding a logi pilot might be easier then you think when you need logi V for triage module and capitals cannot enter any of the incursion sites, leaving your carrier pilots to double as logi pilots. ugh

Jaina Sunspot
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:54:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Baneken
Finding a logi pilot might be easier then you think when you need logi V for triage module and capitals cannot enter any of the incursion sites, leaving your carrier pilots to double as logi pilots. ugh

Adding more Factors...

* Does the Carrier Pilot want to do Logi in a 150mil Setup.
* What if he is not interested at all.
* What if he wants to be DPS because Logi is Boring.
* Does he trust you.
* Is he not busy on that Character doing 100 other things.
* Is there more who feel the same way to help you incase he gets primary.

Lots of Factors.

Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:59:00 - [100]
 

Why not have a pop-up warning for choosing to cease RR when someone is going for a GCC (global criminal countdown)?

Any argument that states it "possibly, may" lead to exploiting by prematurely ending the cycle is moot as the status quo (auto-GCC resulting from no pop-up) is, by all intents and purposes, a glitch gone un-adressed.

What's more: wouldn't the facility of PUGs and increased cooperation among players nurture new friendships? New game-play possibility? Instead of the usual laissez-faire a propos ganking and griefing, maybe it would enrich the community if there was more (just a little more) trust in the game.

Certainly it wouldn't be out of character for a law-enforcement agency, such as Concord, to ask questions and shoot later since they have no fear of returned damage.

To be honest, the thought of PUGs for incursions was the one thing I thought would make the game more pleasurable for the variety of player, like myself, who has a hard time finding common ground with the average "'long-as-yer-lookin'-good.." player.

Lillith Starfire
Posted - 2011.01.13 15:19:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 13/01/2011 15:19:55
Firstly why do you assume complete and total strangers in some random pubblie fleet are going to be willing to repair ANYONE? Especially given it's very likely most players are selfish by nature.

Secondly if they get ganked because of said repping and mechanics (ab)use they won't be in any hurry to join in again in future.

If too many people get killed by other players at these incursions mark my words these events will tank and only griefers and organised PvP or allied players will take part.

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2011.01.13 15:39:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Jaina Sunspot
More difficult then assumed, I am in a 90odd person corp in a 300ish person Alliance. I log on and want good PVE what happens.

17 in corp.

Person 1: LVL 4's are easier
Person 2: Also LVL 4's
Person 3: Small Gang Roam
Person 4: Ratting
Person 5: Mining
Person 6: Sanctum
Person 7: Same Roam
Person 8: Ratting
Person 9: LVL Mission
Person 10: Jita Suicide Ganking
Person 11: AFK
Person 12: AFK
Person 13: AFK
Person 14: Alt of someone AFK
Person 15: Freighter Alt
Person 16: Sure can't fly Logi thou
Person 17: No Reason Given

Oh good time to go on a 40man Rolling Eyes
Sounds like you need to join a new guild. Razz

For the rest of it, I imagine Logi won't be as bad, just due to the people this is aimed at likely having the basic skills for spider tanking in the first place. Anybody new who's being drawn for this will likely be strongly encouraged to focus on RR first, instead of combat skills. Much in the same way new PvPers are pushed towards suicide tackling.

But make no mistake, everything I've heard about incursions points to them being "end-game" style content. If this takes off it's going to be with brand new corps dedicated solely to fighting incursions (and depending on how popular the pastime is, fighting other Sansha-bashing corps too).

Look forward to:
-Being a backup, just in case somebody the CEO likes can't log on.
-Being told that "Pilot B has more SP in XYZ/logs on more/has pinkier hair." and therefore deserves the officer module.
-Being told the reason everybody died was because you specifically didn't bring an officer fit Mach.
-Having somebody with an IQ of 17 in the fleet who's only there because nobody else within 15 jumps has "Bull**** Waste V" trained.
-Selling PLEXes to pay for all the battleships you're losing because of Mr "Bull**** Waste V".
-Sitting in system watching another corp take out the incursion site because you're waiting for Mr Bull**** to log on.
-Being told your removal from corp wasn't personal, but now that the CEO has a Sansha Supercarrier he's realized how much of a waste of time incursions are.

Ahh, memories.

Michwich
Posted - 2011.01.13 15:43:00 - [103]
 

Just wait for Guild Wars 2 if you want a server wide event type pve game . There will be random attacks with big bosses stopping around towns. They got pve figured out. Dont hope for CCP to turn this game into something its not, they're already rich and happy, they have no reason to inovate. Be patient, until then unsubscribe if you dont like it.

Aunty Nora
Posted - 2011.01.13 16:21:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Luminos
FOBTW? If even google can't figure out what your made up acronym is, you're doing it wrong. Razz

PS: What crawled up your ass and died?


Its not made up man, been in use here for ages, **** off back to Wow.

Forum Guy
Posted - 2011.01.13 16:27:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Aunty Nora
Originally by: Luminos
FOBTW? If even google can't figure out what your made up acronym is, you're doing it wrong. Razz

PS: What crawled up your ass and died?


Its not made up man, been in use here for ages, **** off back to Wow.



Needless to say it stands for something not very polite. Btw is by the way, i'll let you work out the rest.

Amy Array
Posted - 2011.01.13 16:53:00 - [106]
 

BIG SURPRISE

"Hrm, what do we have here. A game where more than half the player base spend their entire time trying to make other players feel as bad as possible and try to make them cry. The minority of players like to be left alone to safely do these boring missions where they shoot red crosses over and over and fly disgustingly expensive ships they never expect to lose or risk.

I have an idea, lets make events where the two can come toghether. Some nice new PVE content that will draw even griefers into to want to experience it and let's make them work toghether."

End result. Every sigle PVE enthusiast is going to horribly, horribly, terribly murdered and their bodies dragged through the systems and a river of blood and tears like none seen before is going to flow through the spacelanes.

Jaina Sunspot
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.13 16:57:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Jaina Sunspot on 13/01/2011 16:57:33
Originally by: Luminos
Sounds like you need to join a new guild. Razz

Not really, we get numbers when things are at stake like a fleet or tower defence.
Originally by: Luminos

For the rest of it, I imagine Logi won't be as bad, just due to the people this is aimed at likely having the basic skills for spider tanking in the first place.

\o/ Everyone dies.
Originally by: Luminos

Anybody new who's being drawn for this will likely be strongly encouraged to focus on RR first, instead of combat skills. Much in the same way new PvPers are pushed towards suicide tackling.

Suicide Tackling takes 3 days of SP and a T1 Frig, T1 Logi won't cut it, so months of T2 Training to be part of this in an accepted role.
Originally by: Luminos

But make no mistake, everything I've heard about incursions points to them being "end-game" style content. If this takes off it's going to be with brand new corps dedicated solely to fighting incursions (and depending on how popular the pastime is, fighting other Sansha-bashing corps too).


Yay for elite only content. You must have this many Skill Points to have fun.
Originally by: Luminos

Look forward to:
-Being a backup, just in case somebody the CEO likes can't log on.
-Being told that "Pilot B has more SP in XYZ/logs on more/has pinkier hair." and therefore deserves the officer module.
-Being told the reason everybody died was because you specifically didn't bring an officer fit Mach.
-Having somebody with an IQ of 17 in the fleet who's only there because nobody else within 15 jumps has "Bull**** Waste V" trained.
-Selling PLEXes to pay for all the battleships you're losing because of Mr "Bull**** Waste V".
-Sitting in system watching another corp take out the incursion site because you're waiting for Mr Bull**** to log on.
-Being told your removal from corp wasn't personal, but now that the CEO has a Sansha Supercarrier he's realized how much of a waste of time incursions are.

Ahh, memories.

Quality Gaming accessible to only a few...

Great. ugh

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:01:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Amy Array
BIG SURPRISE

"Hrm, what do we have here. A game where more than half the player base spend their entire time trying to make other players feel as bad as possible and try to make them cry. The minority of players like to be left alone to safely do these boring missions where they shoot red crosses over and over and fly disgustingly expensive ships they never expect to lose or risk.

I have an idea, lets make events where the two can come toghether. Some nice new PVE content that will draw even griefers into to want to experience it and let's make them work toghether."

End result. Every sigle PVE enthusiast is going to horribly, horribly, terribly murdered and their bodies dragged through the systems and a river of blood and tears like none seen before is going to flow through the spacelanes.


I would wait 1 or 2 weeks after the incursions to say this, mabe the tears well see here are not those you are expecting from. But if you are right, that just means that you'll have to deal with those rats alone in your ganking ship and your boyfriends in theyr t2 RR.

you know what? I wish you good luck Laughing

Aaron Aardvark
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:32:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Alyth
[ Hoepfully they won't also sort targets alphabetically and primary me first all the time (CCP THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THEM DO THIS!)



Nice Idea, I support A->Z sorting for NPC targets.
signed:
Venkul

Wink


I hope not.Laughing

Ramalamadindong
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:50:00 - [110]
 

Why Incursions? A CCP employee said:

'A chance for people to go somewhere with their friends and make money or a place where people could go with their friends and make other people miserable'

http://www.eveonline.com/en/incursion/article/169/ccp-soundwave-the-origin-of-incursions

Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:49:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Incursion checklist:
1. New PvE content. Check.
2. PvE content that encourages public participation and cooperation. Check.
3. Hyper-competitive "winning fleet takes all" reward. Check.
4. If too many people participate in a public event, the rewards are reduced. Check.
5. BPC reward can be ninja'd. Check.
6. Concord aggression mechanics can be abused to grief pick-up fleets. Check.
7. War decs can be abused to grief pick-up fleets. Check.
8. PvE fittings will be at a disadvantage in PvE content. Check.
9. NPC abilities are way out of whack compared to what PC capsuleers can do. Check.
10. PvE incursion content makes current PvE content (lower bounties, reduced resists, etc..) less fun. Check.
11. Players who don't have the time, inclination, skills, and/or ships/resources can either sit in station or view the scenery while jumping from gate to gate with their stuff to a new system. Check.
12. ????
13. Incursion expansion is successful!


Seriously, is there a dev named MyMedsStoppedWorking on the payroll at CCP?


THE single greatest post I’ve seen on Incursions, including my own. Congratulations, StoicFaux, on nailing it. Clear sighted, succinct and dead on.

Honorable mention to Major Mousetrap for his contribution.

My popcorn is ready for popping. This is gonna be good…………..unless of course CCP changes something in the way Incursions is going to work, but that would mean overcoming the whole Nordic stubbornness issue.

Best regards,
Windjammer

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:03:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: stoicfaux
Incursion checklist:
1. New PvE content. Check.
2. PvE content that encourages public participation and cooperation. Check.
3. Hyper-competitive "winning fleet takes all" reward. Check.
4. If too many people participate in a public event, the rewards are reduced. Check.
5. BPC reward can be ninja'd. Check.
6. Concord aggression mechanics can be abused to grief pick-up fleets. Check.
7. War decs can be abused to grief pick-up fleets. Check.
8. PvE fittings will be at a disadvantage in PvE content. Check.
9. NPC abilities are way out of whack compared to finally in line with what PC capsuleers can do. Check.
10. PvE incursion content makes current PvE content (lower bounties, reduced resists, etc..) less fun. Check.
11. Players who don't have the time, inclination, skills, and/or ships/resources can either sit in station or view the scenery while jumping from gate to gate with their stuff to a new system. Check.
THE single greatest post I’ve seen on Incursions, including my own. Congratulations, StoicFaux, on nailing it. Clear sighted, succinct and dead on.
Yup. It's the best addition to EVE in a very very long time. Very Happy

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:05:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 13/01/2011 19:06:42
Originally by: Ramalamadindong
Why Incursions? A CCP employee said:

'A chance for people to go somewhere with their friends and make money or a place where people could go with their friends and make other people miserable'

http://www.eveonline.com/en/incursion/article/169/ccp-soundwave-the-origin-of-incursions


Yeah figures.Didn't expect anything different.Eve online...home of the lamers and griefersRolling EyesGet banned everywhere else? Come to eve where you can give your worthless life a meaning lol.

Edit:Well I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show,forums should be fun to read at least.



Windjammer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:19:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Windjammer
Originally by: stoicfaux
Incursion checklist:
1. New PvE content. Check.
2. PvE content that encourages public participation and cooperation. Check.
3. Hyper-competitive "winning fleet takes all" reward. Check.
4. If too many people participate in a public event, the rewards are reduced. Check.
5. BPC reward can be ninja'd. Check.
6. Concord aggression mechanics can be abused to grief pick-up fleets. Check.
7. War decs can be abused to grief pick-up fleets. Check.
8. PvE fittings will be at a disadvantage in PvE content. Check.
9. NPC abilities are way out of whack compared to finally in line with what PC capsuleers can do. Check.
10. PvE incursion content makes current PvE content (lower bounties, reduced resists, etc..) less fun. Check.
11. Players who don't have the time, inclination, skills, and/or ships/resources can either sit in station or view the scenery while jumping from gate to gate with their stuff to a new system. Check.
THE single greatest post I’ve seen on Incursions, including my own. Congratulations, StoicFaux, on nailing it. Clear sighted, succinct and dead on.
Yup. It's the best addition to EVE in a very very long time. Very Happy
Oh. Haha. I see what you’ve done there. Clever. *Golf clap*

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:22:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 13/01/2011 19:22:47
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Yeah figures.Didn't expect anything different.Eve online...home of the lamers and griefersRolling EyesGet banned everywhere else? Come to eve where you can give your worthless life a meaning lol.

Edit:Well I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show,forums should be fun to read at least.



Saw the video. But to be fair, there are lots of CCP employees that are carebears too. So I don't think it's just his opinion that counts on the matter. Some will enjoy "making others miserable" and others won't. Bureaucracy at its best Wink. This patch is content for the sadists, the next one will be content for carebears. The cycle of Eve. I wouldn't look more into it than that.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:29:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Windjammer
Oh. Haha. I see what you’ve done there. Clever. *Golf clap*
What can I say?

I just don't see any of those points as negatives, but rather as changes and additions that this game has been in need of for a very long time. If it plays out the way stoicfaux says, it will be excellent news.

The only thing I disagree with is his characterising their capabilities as "way out of whack compared to PC capsuleers" — they're only out of whack with what normal rats can do, and rather provide the kind of performance you'd expect from a capsuleer ship. This, too, is a good thing.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.13 20:02:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Tippia
I just don't see any of those points as negatives, but rather as changes and additions that this game has been in need of for a very long time.

The only thing I disagree with is his characterising their capabilities as "way out of whack compared to PC capsuleers" — they're only out of whack with what normal rats can do, and rather provide the kind of performance you'd expect from a capsuleer ship.


Both good points.

Personally, I'm just a bit surprised that an expansion of this size and hype would be primarily targeted at "raiding groups." You would think that the common threat of Sansha invasions (which take entire planetary populations as slaves) would be geared to most of the player-base, including the casuals, at least in hi-sec. Low-sec is just going to be a mess, be it a mess o' fun or just a chaotic free for all mess of pirate-raider-sansha ganking each other.

For the hi-sec crowd, I think the complete lack of rewards (especially no bounties or loot) for anyone not in the winning fleet is going to kill incursions once the initial novelty wears off.

Low-sec will just treat incursions as a great big "everyone PvP here" sign. We'll see most of the incursion items (new implants, etc.) trickle into the market from null-sec corps.

Meh, the whole thing just seems like a missed opportunity.



Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
Posted - 2011.01.14 01:14:00 - [118]
 

The ability to cause an entire group to go GCC because of a single person firing on a gang member is not that big a deal. Theres a game mechanic already in place to prevent CONCORD from showing up in this particular instance. This game mechanic is called forming a Corporation.

Forming a corporation keep CONCORD from responding to any act of agression against someone of the same corporation. Of course, we already knew this.

Eve isn't WoW. PUG's ( pickup groups ) are part of the WoW crowd, not part of the Eve crowd. Guys, stop trying to convince others to make Eve like WoW.

Trust is the real issue here. Not game mechanics that can easily be circumvented by joining an active corporation. Without trust, people cant go on pvp roams either.

Trust. If you dont trust a person in your gang, why are you flying with that person?

Major MouseTrap
Posted - 2011.01.14 02:22:00 - [119]
 

LMAOVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy First rule of EVE trust no one .....i only trust game mechanic's .........i have 2 alts in corp's that have been there for a month in a half of so just so when sansha incursion becomes active i can get shoot another alliance member YARRRR!! trust and eve just dont mix........ ask the player who been a victim of players they trusted.....EmbarassedEmbarassed

Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
Posted - 2011.01.14 04:38:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Major MouseTrap
LMAOVery HappyVery HappyVery Happy First rule of EVE trust no one .....i only trust game mechanic's ..


Agree 100%.

There are different levels of trust.

People can trust each other enough to form a corporation and go out on pvp roams. You can then not trust those same people enough to hand over 20billion isk just so someone can see what it feels like to have that amount in their wallet.


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