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blankseplocked The Day the Bot Stood Still
 
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Fuzzy Weeze
The United Snakes
Posted - 2011.01.11 08:42:00 - [1]
 

CCP Please find us way to eliminate botters, ie. Market bots, Ratting bots, and Mining bots.. You are losing alot of player base because of this and it has turned alot of people off from the game..

About 90% of the ideas posted about how to get rid of bots are ****.
I believe you can find us something truly genius that will work to help us grief them or by eliminating the ability to inject python code into the client.

This is all I want to see happen the end of robots.Shocked
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.01.11 08:51:00 - [2]
 

You'll never truly get rid of bots. Sure, you can patch holes, you can make it harder, but the Russian/Chinese mafia will always find a way.

Most likely, you'll just **** off some regular PvPer who has a highsec bot just to pay for his weekly PvP shot...

Pan Dora
Caldari
Organization for Nuclear Research
Posted - 2011.01.11 11:36:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

Most likely, you'll just **** off some regular PvPer who has a highsec bot just to pay for his weekly PvP shot...


Im all for ****ing off cheaters, no matter if they do it for a living or just because playing fair its too dificult to then.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.01.11 12:32:00 - [4]
 

Hmm, remove local from 0.0, or at least delay it by 5 min, and that should get rid of most ratting bots.
Implement more dangerous NPC pirates, who maybe even call in reinforcements when they spot some juicy targets (5 Hulks and an Orca? YARR!) might at least make mining bots harder to program.
Market bots? No idea. The simplicity and the 0.01 ISK grind just caters to bots I guess.

Mangold
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2011.01.11 12:46:00 - [5]
 

On 2 other eve related forums there are quite detailed information on how the bots work. Removing local is not a way to stop them (at least according to the people claiming to know how they work).

Every single bot is a cheater. I don't care if he/she pays for his house with the bot or just for a new ship - it's still cheating. Losing a ship used to make people angry. Today it isn't, I have drawn my conclusiong.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.01.11 12:52:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mangold
On 2 other eve related forums there are quite detailed information on how the bots work. Removing local is not a way to stop them (at least according to the people claiming to know how they work).

Ah I guess the bots spam the ship scanner instead?
Well, if that should be the case, some more things would have to be adjusted, so that an attacker always has the initiative on a stationary target.
Perhaps the bots would then start to place cloaked scouts at the system's gates..
I don't know. Probably the best way is still to report them and let the GMs deal with it. But apparently that doesn't work alll too well Confused

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.01.11 13:00:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Mangold
On 2 other eve related forums there are quite detailed information on how the bots work. Removing local is not a way to stop them (at least according to the people claiming to know how they work).

Ah I guess the bots spam the ship scanner instead?
Well, if that should be the case, some more things would have to be adjusted, so that an attacker always has the initiative on a stationary target.
Perhaps the bots would then start to place cloaked scouts at the system's gates..
I don't know. Probably the best way is still to report them and let the GMs deal with it. But apparently that doesn't work alll too well Confused


The problem is, a bot (if well written) will always have an advantage over a real human. You can check local, you can check scanner, you can do a lot, but not that much at the same time. Bots can. They can without fail keep an eye on local and ship scanner and overview, and log off/warp out the instant there's something unpleasant.

Pan Dora
Caldari
Organization for Nuclear Research
Posted - 2011.01.11 15:05:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje

The problem is, a bot (if well written) will always have an advantage over a real human.


This.

Most porposed solutions simple ignore the fact that changing the game mechanics to make boting more difidult will make everyone lifes more dificult.

So instead of changes of mechanics that worsen the problem what its really needed s better ways to detect botting and punish the pratice.

To be honest I think CCP do a god job with the resources they have (yes, they can do better, but still a good job).



Nuhm DeAra
Posted - 2011.01.11 16:11:00 - [9]
 


Warren Wagner
Posted - 2011.01.11 21:44:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Mangold
On 2 other eve related forums there are quite detailed information on how the bots work. Removing local is not a way to stop them (at least according to the people claiming to know how they work).

Ah I guess the bots spam the ship scanner instead?
Well, if that should be the case, some more things would have to be adjusted, so that an attacker always has the initiative on a stationary target.
Perhaps the bots would then start to place cloaked scouts at the system's gates..
I don't know. Probably the best way is still to report them and let the GMs deal with it. But apparently that doesn't work alll too well Confused


No. The bot does not 'check the scanner'. The bot taps into the live info feed that informs your client that another player has entered the system. It is light-years ahead of even what a player has access to.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.11 21:48:00 - [11]
 

to shut down all bots in 0.0 all CCP gotta do is place a cloaker alt char in every system.

Doctero
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.01.11 21:58:00 - [12]
 

Interesting point. Having a CCP generated "player" randomly enter systems through wormholes, cloaked, and hang out for a few hours in every suspected botting system... could be effective.

You could even make up some RP stuff about Jovian Watchers or SOE explorers or Sansha scouts or something.

Fuzzy Weeze
The United Snakes
Posted - 2011.01.12 04:13:00 - [13]
 

I am surprised and very impressed at how constructive this thread is going. It does not contain the usual banter for now. The Idea of having a Jovian Cloaker in system is genius.

The (no local in 0.0) I have heard and would limit alot of people from ever ratting in their carriers which we don't want. Not saying it wouldn't be a freaking blast, Ive always wished I held the sphere for one day and that would be the closest thing to it.

Moving on..
1. How do we make the eve client tell ccp's Server that it's code hasn't been Warp Scrambled?

2. How do we make the client aware that the player controlling it, is responding at a suspicious unhuman-like non random timing?

We Must think hard, it is for the GREATER GOOD! Neutral

DrDooma
Posted - 2011.01.12 05:08:00 - [14]
 

First of all there are 2 types of bots: those that inject resource into the game and those that extract them.

Mining bots eject resources into the game allowing players to purchase cheaper minerals and build more and cheaper ships.

NPC killing bots have the opposite effect. They inject in-game currency into the game in exchange for resource making materials and ships more expensive.

While I am against botting, I am also aware that without mining bots there will be significant reduction in supply of raw resources and components that are essential in ship manufacturing making the ships more expensive.

Personally I would like to see more automated ways that players can make money and obtain resources. These methods should not be risk free but to simply argue that doing boring tasks is part of life hance we all must sit for hours and stair at asteroids is not quite my idea of relaxation and fun

Fuzzy Weeze
The United Snakes
Posted - 2011.01.12 06:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: DrDooma

Personally I would like to see more automated ways that players can make money and obtain resources. These methods should not be risk free but to simply argue that doing boring tasks is part of life hance we all must sit for hours and stair at asteroids is not quite my idea of relaxation and fun




While I don't mine astroids, nor will I with current Prices, I will say mining is not for everyone, but new players do it. Some find it relaxing to do in a group, and if it was profitable again people would do it more as a passive income.

I think justifying bots by saying they make our ships cheaper because minerals are cheaper yada,is a copout. CCP intended players to mine they have made a number of ships dedicated to just that, its called industry. Prices will balance out as comes demand, it's how it works.

Don't ****post here if you have a good idea express it but don't just bust out the same old boring **** I have read countless times.

If this happens this will happen and make this much harder for this to happen. **** that bots are dumb this is a game about people.

If you are against botting come up with a Idea instead of shooting them down with your skeptic logic.

Cheers

WitchKingOfAgamar
Posted - 2011.01.12 06:38:00 - [16]
 

I really like the Sansha scout idea. It would be even better if they put it in without telling anyone

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.01.12 09:23:00 - [17]
 

Then what do real people do? They don't mine/rat either. Or they'll start working the scanner (Which doesn't work against a cloaker with a covops cyno anyway)

You didn't just kill botting, you killed all money making in the whole of 0.0

Cause if you didn't - bots would adapt the same way players do, e.g. by fitting warp stabs or working the scanner tirelessly.

The only thing which players could do and bots would have a hard time with is planting a trap for the cloaker, but most ratters are too selfish or stupid to do that.

I mean I'm all for PVP and I don't rat or mine in 0.0 so for me it'd work admirally, but I can already see the threads by disgruntled PvEers (the ones who don't want local to disappear and want covert ops to be visible somehow etc)

Fuzzy Weeze
The United Snakes
Posted - 2011.01.13 12:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gemberslaafje
Then what do real people do? They don't mine/rat either. Or they'll start working the scanner (Which doesn't work against a cloaker with a covops cyno anyway)

You didn't just kill botting, you killed all money making in the whole of 0.0

Cause if you didn't - bots would adapt the same way players do, e.g. by fitting warp stabs or working the scanner tirelessly.

The only thing which players could do and bots would have a hard time with is planting a trap for the cloaker, but most ratters are too selfish or stupid to do that.

I mean I'm all for PVP and I don't rat or mine in 0.0 so for me it'd work admirally, but I can already see the threads by disgruntled PvEers (the ones who don't want local to disappear and want covert ops to be visible somehow etc)


Read this a few time and I think I get your point. You are right that if there are npc cloakers in system suddenly real players wouldn't be ratting..

Moving on.. What about client or server side detection of a Bot. The client could detect itself as genuine. If the code was erased the server could reject connection. CCP GET ON IT, dont sell out.Idea

Banker Lucu
Viziam
Posted - 2011.01.17 11:16:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Fuzzy Weeze
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

Moving on.. What about client or server side detection of a Bot. The client could detect itself as genuine. If the code was erased the server could reject connection. CCP GET ON IT, dont sell out.Idea


Do any coders out there know how easy this would be to implement ?

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.01.17 11:23:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Banker Lucu
Originally by: Fuzzy Weeze

Moving on.. What about client or server side detection of a Bot. The client could detect itself as genuine. If the code was erased the server could reject connection. CCP GET ON IT, dont sell out.Idea


Do any coders out there know how easy this would be to implement ?


*quote fail*

I'm not a Python guru, but what I've read it's a problem with that language making it hard to validate things.

Alternatively you could make something like PunkBuster, which forces itself to be run as admin and see every program you're running. An external (even made by CCP) program which checks your stuff is very evil considering privacy and whatnot, but it could easily check for common macro programs and suspicious behaviors

(Client side)

big fluf
Posted - 2011.01.17 15:28:00 - [21]
 

I have come to the conclusion that CCP LIKES HAVING BOTS IN THE GAME.

I have very weak programing skills, C++ for a few years. but it is plain to me that CCP could (and does?) log when a person signs in , and logs off.

step one .. open player data base.
Step two sort players from most hours played last week to lowest hours played last week.

start investigation at the top and work your way down.

There is 161 hours playable in a week, any with over 112 (16 hours a day EVERY day), is liekly a bot. and should be looked in to.


This is with out even looking at statistical fingerprints of the players. There is tons of software (in fact whole fields of study) dedicated to saying "this is what normal looks like", and filtering your data to find out outliers to investigate.

big fluf
Posted - 2011.01.17 15:35:00 - [22]
 

I don't think most bot code changes the EVE code, rather it sits in windows. mimicing YOUR input. I don't really know.

However, you bring up a good point. We need a "punk buster" for EVE (i hate THE punk buster, but the idea is the same).

You treat a bot, like a virus, and eve scans the sys for "evebot.exe", and end the process if it is there.

Make sence?




Originally by: Banker Lucu
Originally by: Fuzzy Weeze
Originally by: Gemberslaafje

Moving on.. What about client or server side detection of a Bot. The client could detect itself as genuine. If the code was erased the server could reject connection. CCP GET ON IT, dont sell out.Idea


Do any coders out there know how easy this would be to implement ?

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2011.01.17 15:45:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: big fluf
I don't think most bot code changes the EVE code, rather it sits in windows. mimicing YOUR input. I don't really know.



As far as I know there are generally 2 types of bots

1. Automated macros clicking your mouse for you, either pre-recorded or programmed with tools like 'auto-it' or 'auto-hotkey' - Usually used by lesser botters and ppl too lazy to play the game (Not making a case for these people, just saying)
2. Specialized clients utilizing something called 'python code-injection' (which is where my knowledge ends) taking over the whole client, instantly knowing everything the server sends, and just sending the signals back it expects. - These are the real evil, with connections to Real Money Trading (RMT) and chinese/russian mafia.

Fuzzy Weeze
The United Snakes
Posted - 2011.01.25 11:23:00 - [24]
 

Conclusions:

Python sux in some ways.. bots sux, punkbuster type program (simple),

Ways to stop bots: Infinite.

CCP: no replyEvil or Very Mad

Man K0
Posted - 2011.01.25 11:52:00 - [25]
 

Solution is so easy:

Check Ip that has been conected whit the server 23h/day. Check if it´s the same computer(mac direction). Ban-hammer over all of them. Everyones happy.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.01.25 12:58:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Warren Wagner
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Mangold
On 2 other eve related forums there are quite detailed information on how the bots work. Removing local is not a way to stop them (at least according to the people claiming to know how they work).

Ah I guess the bots spam the ship scanner instead?
Well, if that should be the case, some more things would have to be adjusted, so that an attacker always has the initiative on a stationary target.
Perhaps the bots would then start to place cloaked scouts at the system's gates..
I don't know. Probably the best way is still to report them and let the GMs deal with it. But apparently that doesn't work alll too well Confused


No. The bot does not 'check the scanner'. The bot taps into the live info feed that informs your client that another player has entered the system. It is light-years ahead of even what a player has access to.

Thats unlikely. I see no reason whatsoever for the server to send any information to the client regarding players entering the system if no local exists. The only reason the server would provide information with local is to update local with that information. Remove local, no reason to send that data till the client needs to know it (player and bot come into proximity of each other).

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.01.25 14:13:00 - [27]
 

people use bots to do routines.

figure out why there's bots.



Question

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.01.25 14:59:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
people use bots to do routines.

figure out why there's bots.


Question





I like your style of thinking, way to try to address the cuase, rather then the effect of bots. ugh
so what do we have? 1)mining bots 2)mission bots 3)market bots 4) Hauler/freight moving bots

1) make mining more interactive and decision based.
2)PVE would be hard to fix…idk how difficult it would be to make it player owned and therefore dynamic. ya know, makeit so actual people had to give out missions or something.
3) Market bots would be easy to fix....its a free market, anyone ever heard of a tarrif? or a sanction? simply give people the option to 'vote againts seeing this persons market proposals in the future'. Simple right? You see a buy order for .01 isk, you right click on it and select ignore, and the filter will prevent that order from even appearing to you, as well as any other orders from that person....bot succesfully ignored.
4) Hauler bots would be even easier to fix...make a skill that fixes the warp distance in auto poilet. lvl 1 = warp to 15km from gates...lvl 5 = 0 km.


Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.01.25 19:19:00 - [29]
 

wow has it, its called warden, swallow your pride, buy it from blizzard or make a similar program, or take serious measures such as region Ban russia


 

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