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blankseplocked Newbie trying to wedge myself into the market
 
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Boozbaz
Posted - 2011.01.10 02:40:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Boozbaz on 10/01/2011 02:44:38
This is much more difficult than I had first expected.

I've got some skills in the basics, procurement, trading, etc. I've been given 25 million isk to start playing with...and I've spent several hours browsing through the market for a good place to get started and I'm lost.

I've read maybe 10 or more tutorials on trading (honestly). But whenever I look at an item that has a large amount of "quantity" in it's price history, there's several other Traders already vying for control. I can see that the current trader who's winning the battle for control over the item usually has made changes to their prices within the last few hours.

That's just something I can't compete with, as I'm at work frequently and I don't have time to log in and adjust my prices every few hours to beat the other guys.

I've spent about an hour now in Jita, clicking through each of the items in the market, from ammunition to trade goods, and I see the same results: anything with a mass transaction history is being fought over by several traders.

So I flew off to Onnamon, situated in the region "Black Rise" yet bordering the "Lonetrek" region where Jita is located. Why did I go there? Because I caught wind that Ichoria (located within "Black Rise"), is a hub for L4 mission runners, salvagers, etc.

I started off by looking at Alloyed Tritanium Bars. Currently Trit Bars have 6 different people with buy orders, the top order being 0.01 isk above his predecessor, and having created his order 2 hours after his predecessor had created his.

In the sellers, there are 9 of them, the top seller with a nice 17% profit above the top buying price.

Browsing through all the items, it was only the items with small transaction #'s in their history that weren't being competed over.

I'm considering that my best option at this point is to forget the whole idea of "flipping" and go into transporting items from where they are cheap and abundant, to where they are expensive and sought after.

Orrrr, I could go into the market and place buy/sell orders on the items that not as many people are competing over, and make my isk via enormous amounts of small transactions.

Orrr I could just be having a negative viewpoint, and instead of hesitating to get into the market, just start competing and see how it goes?

Any suggestions?

Also: If I transport/courier items, I won't be doing this myself as I am totally against lifting a finger and doing manual work besides something such as flying to the border of another region to check prices. If I were to courier, I'd do it through contracts and make other people do the work.

Drunken Idiot
Posted - 2011.01.10 02:46:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
Any suggestions?


Ignore the pomposity of the MD regulars and do something more fun in EVE Online than the mechanical accumulation of Internet Spaceship wealth.

Jack Norris
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.10 02:55:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Drunken Idiot
Ignore the pomposity of the MD regulars and do something more fun in EVE Online than the mechanical accumulation of Internet Spaceship wealth.


Bolded the relevant part

Boozbaz
Posted - 2011.01.10 02:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jack Norris
Originally by: Drunken Idiot
Ignore the pomposity of the MD regulars and do something more fun in EVE Online than the mechanical accumulation of Internet Spaceship wealth.


Bolded the relevant part


I don't see the bolded part.

Boozbaz
Posted - 2011.01.10 03:01:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Boozbaz on 10/01/2011 03:06:13
Eureka.
Quote:

* YOU BUY: ...when you try to sell your ore / your mission salvage / your mission loot you see nobody is buying it. If you see an item like Sensor Booster I or something you commonly recieve from missions, check to see if somebody is buying. If nobody is buying it at all in your station, save your item, setup a buy order for 1000 ISK per unit (and increase price when neccessary), save up 100 units of the sensor booster and your other loot...take it to Jita and sell your Sensor Boosters for 9000 ISK per unit straight to market.


The other issue I think, is that I'm in regions of space where there's too much competition. I'm not really sure how much competition is spread out across the galaxy, but perhaps I could probe around for a more gentle market to "wedge" myself into.

Seisto
Amarr
Phenomenons
Posted - 2011.01.10 08:47:00 - [6]
 

If you cannot spend a lot of time babysitting your orders, do not sit in Jita. Jita is great for people that .01 ISK from their I-phone, but there is actually more money to be made elsewhere.

Trading is fundamentally about predicting what other people will want and being ready to supply it. One way to discover that is to do what they are doing and see what you want as a result: do the newbie missions, rat a little, mine a little. See what equipment you want, best and second best (often neglected by the order-massagers), see what clutter you accumulate and want to get shot of. Look at the price that you are happy to pay for equipment or get for loot/ore.

Personally I have slow reactions and a life outside Eve, so I buy things that move more slowly but have a stupendous markup. In every region I have found many items that can be bought for 5% of their sell price, cos it drops off rats or people upgrade out of it. Even if you only sell 1 a week, if you are making 5000% and have 20 or so, you will have a nice income: think supermarket instead of red-hot bond trader.

Good hunting

munitqua
Caldari
BlackSite Prophecy
Posted - 2011.01.10 12:39:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Seisto
If you cannot spend a lot of time babysitting your orders, do not sit in Jita. Jita is great for people that .01 ISK from their I-phone, but there is actually more money to be made elsewhere.

Trading is fundamentally about predicting what other people will want and being ready to supply it. One way to discover that is to do what they are doing and see what you want as a result: do the newbie missions, rat a little, mine a little. See what equipment you want, best and second best (often neglected by the order-massagers), see what clutter you accumulate and want to get shot of. Look at the price that you are happy to pay for equipment or get for loot/ore.

Personally I have slow reactions and a life outside Eve, so I buy things that move more slowly but have a stupendous markup. In every region I have found many items that can be bought for 5% of their sell price, cos it drops off rats or people upgrade out of it. Even if you only sell 1 a week, if you are making 5000% and have 20 or so, you will have a nice income: think supermarket instead of red-hot bond trader.

Good hunting


Exactly!

I also dont trade at Jita or any busy trade hub. Like you i dont have time to babysit my buy and sel orders, so you can perhaps do some inter region trading, or go to a lesss busy region to get items at 10% of their price.

Maiev Satellizer
Posted - 2011.01.10 12:43:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Maiev Satellizer on 10/01/2011 12:43:46
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_resources

Seriously mate its gonna bite you right in the face....

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.01.10 14:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Boozbaz
I'm considering that my best option at this point is to forget the whole idea of "flipping" and go into transporting items from where they are cheap and abundant, to where they are expensive and sought after.

Orrrr, I could go into the market and place buy/sell orders on the items that not as many people are competing over, and make my isk via enormous amounts of small transactions.

Orrr I could just be having a negative viewpoint, and instead of hesitating to get into the market, just start competing and see how it goes?

Any suggestions?



^ All of this ...

Originally by: Boozbaz
I could probe around for a more gentle market


.... combined with this ^ -- and you're quite on track.


Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.01.10 18:45:00 - [10]
 

Jita is a horrible place to trade, unless you are trading in large volumes.

In my early trading days, I did Amarr, Tash-Murkon Prime, Dresi, Kador Prime, Kor-Azor Prime, as they are all about 3 jump apart.

I make a good amount of ISK by buying low, hauling, selling higher. I deal in anything that is worthwhile to fill a freighter with and make a trip. I typically aim for a minimum of 10% profit per trip, though I average around 16%.

I rarely place buy orders, but when I do, I price them low and expect the order to be filled slowly over a long period of time. Margin Trading 5 is great for this.

Corcyrus Endymion
Caldari
Elder Tribes
Posted - 2011.01.10 18:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Jita is a horrible place to trade, unless you are trading in large volumes.

In my early trading days, I did Amarr, Tash-Murkon Prime, Dresi, Kador Prime, Kor-Azor Prime, as they are all about 3 jump apart.

I make a good amount of ISK by buying low, hauling, selling higher. I deal in anything that is worthwhile to fill a freighter with and make a trip. I typically aim for a minimum of 10% profit per trip, though I average around 16%.

I rarely place buy orders, but when I do, I price them low and expect the order to be filled slowly over a long period of time. Margin Trading 5 is great for this.



Jita is not horrible at all! The biggest non-0.0 profits can be made there. It's a tad unfriendly to people with little time, and might have some people with deep pockets ruining other people's day, but it isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination. I would not have 1% of what I have now if not for Jita.

Cleansing Spite
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.10 19:47:00 - [12]
 

Trade hubs have one absolutely key function:

1. Improving the price discovery function of the market

They also do good things like improving liquidity, ensuring a diversity of offered goods, and limiting transportation costs to the buyer.

Generally you can expect hubs to be the most "efficient" markets given the liquidity. That said, such places are also key locations for speculators and manipulators with excessive market power. Stay out of the way of the big wallets, my friend.

Berikath
Posted - 2011.01.10 22:57:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Boozbaz

I've read maybe 10 or more tutorials on trading (honestly). But whenever I look at an item that has a large amount of "quantity" in it's price history, there's several other Traders already vying for control. I can see that the current trader who's winning the battle for control over the item usually has made changes to their prices within the last few hours.


Hmm...
Quote:
That's just something I can't compete with, as I'm at work frequently and I don't have time to log in and adjust my prices every few hours to beat the other guys.

Understandable.
Quote:
I've spent about an hour now in Jita,

Found your problem. Everybody and their brother buys stuff in Jita, so everybody and their brother SELLS stuff in Jita. Unless you're looking for long(er)-term investment-type trading (buy 5 million today, sell it next week), you probably won't be able to do it well in Jita without a lot of free time.

Go to another, smaller hub. The pie is smaller, but you'll get a much bigger piece of it.
Quote:
So I flew off to Onnamon, situated in the region "Black Rise" yet bordering the "Lonetrek" region where Jita is located. Why did I go there? Because I caught wind that Ichoria (located within "Black Rise"), is a hub for L4 mission runners, salvagers, etc.

I started off by looking at Alloyed Tritanium Bars. Currently Trit Bars have 6 different people with buy orders, the top order being 0.01 isk above his predecessor, and having created his order 2 hours after his predecessor had created his.

In the sellers, there are 9 of them, the top seller with a nice 17% profit above the top buying price.

Browsing through all the items, it was only the items with small transaction #'s in their history that weren't being competed over.

I'm considering that my best option at this point is to forget the whole idea of "flipping" and go into transporting items from where they are cheap and abundant, to where they are expensive and sought after.
For things like alloyed Trit. bars, that's what you'll want to do. To put it bluntly- missioners get lots of them. They want easy ISK for them. Builders want lots of them. They want easy transportation for 'em. They DON'T need the items in a mission hub, they want 'em in Jita. You, the trader, are essentially being paid for the service of moving them from missioners to producers.

"Flipping" works when the buyers and the sellers are in the same spot, but they both want instant gratification (their money/item NOW) more than they want to milk each item for all it's worth.

HINT- People who build stuff keep an eye on their margins. They don't like selling to flippers. People who grab stuff off wrecks look at it more like found money- they'll take the easy way and sell to you. If you're setting up in a mission hub, look for items which both come from and are sold to missioners.

Boozbaz
Posted - 2011.01.11 03:10:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Seisto
If you cannot spend a lot of time babysitting your orders, do not sit in Jita. Jita is great for people that .01 ISK from their I-phone, but there is actually more money to be made elsewhere.




Woah woah woah, how do you do THAT?! I have an iPhone.

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2011.01.11 04:28:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Pohbis on 11/01/2011 04:28:07
Originally by: Boozbaz
Woah woah woah, how do you do THAT?! I have an iPhone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1qJq_75uBo

Lady Ayeipsia
Posted - 2011.01.11 15:49:00 - [16]
 

Here's an example I stumbled upon that may help you out...

Venilen(SP?) is about 6 jumps from Jita. It has a nice level 4 Caldari Navy Agent. Down there, a friend of mine had just bought out the last of the T2 Scourge Heavy Missiles. The next closest order was a jump or two away.

Both orders, the next closest and the one he bought out were well above the Jita prices for these missiles. So it would be possible to move a supply of such missiles from Jita to this mission area and hope to make a profit. Since the hub is in Ven and as of last night, no other orders, your competition should be low. So why not try that?

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.11 16:18:00 - [17]
 


It is a fallacy that you have to remain constantly on top to make ISK trading. The price of all heavily traded goods fluctuates constantly, upwards and downwards. Pick an item, ice products are a good start, the price of both buy and sell will mostly osculate around an average buy and average sell prices, and watch it's price trend on the graph. Pitch your buy at the at the average daily buy price and leave it. When you have a stock pitch that at the average daily sell price and leave it. If you got your pricing right you will have turned something over, rinse and repeat, branch out into similar items.

Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
Posted - 2011.01.11 18:26:00 - [18]
 

1. Buy low

2. Sell high

3. Buy where people sell

4. Sell where people buy

5. Don't waste your time trading in items with lots of competition

6. Pay other people to move stuff

That's pretty much it. The unanswered questions have to be filled in by you. Otherwise if you want more detailed information then you will have to cough up cash for that.

wayz
The Grief Wave
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:57:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Seisto
If you cannot spend a lot of time babysitting your orders, do not sit in Jita. Jita is great for people that .01 ISK from their I-phone, but there is actually more money to be made elsewhere.

Trading is fundamentally about predicting what other people will want and being ready to supply it. One way to discover that is to do what they are doing and see what you want as a result: do the newbie missions, rat a little, mine a little. See what equipment you want, best and second best (often neglected by the order-massagers), see what clutter you accumulate and want to get shot of. Look at the price that you are happy to pay for equipment or get for loot/ore.



Lies!!!!!!!!!! trading is about buying things were theyre cheap then cashing in on the unbeleivable lazyness of people than me and putting them as redicilously over priced sell orders in stations were there currently are none

Funesta
Posted - 2011.01.12 17:04:00 - [20]
 

As a STARTING point, try to find a way to be USEFUL instead of a way to be LAZY.

Do something that is helpful to people. Buying stuff in Jita and selling the same stuff to people in Jita is not useful - people already take tons of every conceivable item to Jita and already go there to buy stuff too. You are not adding any value by trying to play the trade game at a major trading hub - you're just trying to cash in with the smallest effort possible. It CAN be a viable way to make money, but it takes a lot of spare time to .01 isk market orders, there's lots of competition, and you are helping absolutely no one.

So, what would be helpful? You could buy ammo/drones/whatever cheap in one place, and then transport and sell them at a mission hub. It is possible but unlikely that you could set up a station trading game at major mission hub - most of them will be highly competitive and require lots of babysitting time. Station trading at busy spots is low value added, thus generally low profit - but bringing stuff to people who want it is high value added and thus can present a greater profit for a beginner.

Another game you can play that requires minimal effort is "scrapper." Lots and lots of stuff can be refined and the minerals sold to buy orders for a profit. The catch is, you need to work up your refining and your standings somewhere, and you'll need to spreadsheet all the numbers out - so lots of people don't bother. However, it is a fundamentally helpful endeavor for the game - it makes it more likely that manufacturers can make a profit off said item if there aren't millions of them available under mineral prices, it gets rid of someone's excess stock of junk, and it fills someone's mineral orders.


 

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