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blankseplocked ECM is definately NOT OP. Nerf Logistics!
 
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xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.04 21:50:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: xxxak on 04/01/2011 21:58:53
Recently, I have noticed that Logistics ships are insanely overpowered.

I personally can fly them all, and I own two guardians, two basilisks, and a scimitar at this moment.

That said, I have fought small and mid-sized gangs with 2-3 logistics ships, and they are simply too powerful.

Under realistic battle scenarios (e.g. some confusion, moving ships, etc), two or three logistics ships can easily rep the DPS from a gang of 10-15 HACs/BCs. Two or three logistics ships also can withstand an unacceptable amount of ECM. Even with two or three dedicated ECM ships, it is difficult to break the spider chain of three logistics ships.

In large fleets the situation with logistics is not so bad. I know that my alliance uses LARGE gangs of Logistics ships in major fleet fights (15-20+ logi ships). Under those conditions, ECM rarely matters, and in fact, in major fights (200 vs 200 +) ECM is rarely fielded. Under these conditions, Logisitcs may still be overpowered, but can sometimes be defeated by sheer alpha strike DPS from massed BCs/BS. In large gangs, ECM ships are popped first anyways.

It is in small gangs that logistics provide an unfair advantage, and are not sufficiently countered by their natural enemy, ECM ships.

My proposed solution: reduce Logistics sensor strength substantially. This will not matter much in large fleet battles, because again, ECM is not heavily used in such battles. But lowering sensor strength (maybe 2-35%) will make ECM a more “reasonable” counter to almost unjammable logistics ships in small gangs.

William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2011.01.04 21:52:00 - [2]
 

Nerfing logistics? They don't need it.
Just ECM the f*ckers!

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.04 21:53:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: William Cooly
Nerfing logistics? They don't need it.
Just ECM the f*ckers!


See above. Requires unfair amounts of dedicated ECM to stop logi chains.

DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.04 21:55:00 - [4]
 

+1, logis need to be looked at.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:21:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 04/01/2011 22:21:38
You're saying 1 logi ship can't be jammed by 1 jammer ship? I mean, if he's fitted depending on his mates to stay alive and help the rest of the gang, I think it's only right it takes more than 1 jammer to knock him/1 of his support out. But I'd expect a whole rack of ECM from a ewar bird can overcome 1 logistic's eccm, or make him overheat the eccm mod til it's burnt.

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:29:00 - [6]
 

In my experience, a well skilled alt in a blackbird with a full rack of amarr ECM could not really "break" a single guardian. My main with max skills in a rook with a split rack also failed.

So yes I would say a logi with eccm takes at least one ECM ship, which is OP because ECM ships don't last long on field when they dedicate their full rack vs one logi in a 15 man gang fight.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:32:00 - [7]
 

Feck nerfing them. After running some of the higher level incursions and getting our entire fleets ass handed to us on a sansha platter they need a boost.(and yes everyone was working together and such.) Razz

R3d L6dy
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:35:00 - [8]
 

Ever thought about using medium and large energy neutralizers?
The other day I saw a 3 guardian chain go to hell because of it and stuff started dying.

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:50:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: R3d L6dy
Ever thought about using medium and large energy neutralizers?
The other day I saw a 3 guardian chain go to hell because of it and stuff started dying.


I an man enough to admit that I havent tried this. I'll get back to you.

Meds don't do sh*t though, need large I'm sure. (so no love for HAC gangs)

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.01.04 22:56:00 - [10]
 

3 Racial ECMs from a blackbird will keep a guardian with one ECCM in jammed about half the time (~45% if he overloads)

If there's 2 guardians you jam one and shoot the other (BTW if you fit the BB to counter a guardian-supported gang, he can put 6 jammers on one guardian and keep him jammed 75% of the time)

If they have 3 RR ships then you really shouldn't be complaining that one 10million isk cruiser isn't enough to counter them. Bring 2. Problem solved.

xxxak
Caldari
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.04 23:08:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
3 Racial ECMs from a blackbird will keep a guardian with one ECCM in jammed about half the time (~45% if he overloads)

If there's 2 guardians you jam one and shoot the other (BTW if you fit the BB to counter a guardian-supported gang, he can put 6 jammers on one guardian and keep him jammed 75% of the time)

If they have 3 RR ships then you really shouldn't be complaining that one 10million isk cruiser isn't enough to counter them. Bring 2. Problem solved.


That was not my experience. I think I got one jam off in ~3 min on the field.

Tammarr
Posted - 2011.01.04 23:54:00 - [12]
 

Someone who flies logis alot is likely to have either halo or eccm implants in addition to 1 or 2 eccm modules fitted.

If logis warpin at range, two unbonidamps will make their lockrange <30km.

If logis are close, trippelweb the primary and ecm drones+neut the other twos. The web is the realy important thing to enable turrets to hit awesome.
Its only ~4k dps two guards can tank a third for, if they dont get staggereneuted etc. The primary guardian dosent matter, all ewar(except painters & webs)/capwar on the other two.

Web them, paint them and flip them over. Dont just fit point, cap booster, ...a web maybe... and an mwd to all ships in a gang, be creative in what you bring to enhance your groups ability to deal with threats.





Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.01.05 00:04:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: Cambarus



That was not my experience. I think I got one jam off in ~3 min on the field.
Get better skills with ECM then, as one jam in 3 minutes means a roughly 15% success rate. Base rate with no skills for ONE jammer is 9.something%. Assuming he has one ECCM, with perfect skills one jammer will jam him more than 20% of the time. If you're going up against people who field a lot of guardians, one blackbird with 4-5 amarr jammers should be enough, bringing more in if they field more RR.

You either were very unlucky, didn't match your jammers up or found some other way to screw up.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.05 01:46:00 - [14]
 

The problem is using ECM as the counter.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.01.05 08:14:00 - [15]
 

I, too, would like to nerf teamwork in my multiplayer games.

Will these terrible threads ever stop?

Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
Posted - 2011.01.05 08:54:00 - [16]
 

Yes nerf them to hell, not because I believe they are OP or anything I merely find the concept of healers in a spaceship game offensive.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.05 09:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: xxxak
...It is in small gangs that logistics provide an unfair advantage, and are not sufficiently countered by their natural enemy, ECM ships...

"Natural enemy" my ass, I thought you said you flew the things. You are doing it wrong .. quite literally.
If ECM is not working for you then they probably knew you were bringing it and stacked all available midslots with ECCM + some remotes.

Since you have apparently developed a reputation of using ECM (or you have a spy, take your pick) perhaps a change in tactics is needed. Bring tons of neuts next time, bring down cap of all but one logistics while you vaporize the remaining .. even with a cap chain the repairers will stutter at best.

Jason Marshall
Gallente
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2011.01.05 09:57:00 - [18]
 

Ive noticed when my corp uses logis, our regular enemies dont really seem to know how to fight them. A curse can shut down a dual gaurdian gang. Or DPS spplied to them can push them out of the fight temporarily or permanatly depending on how good tackle is.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 09:57:00 - [19]
 

As logistics pilot:
Boni is not a word (really stop using it to whoever used it in this topic)

I dont use halo implants or similar, pretty much no logi pilot in 0.0 will use them.

If you cant really **** someones day up with one dedicated ECM ship per enemy logistics you are doing something horribly wrong.

If you cant kill a guardian supported by one other guardian with 10-15 BCs/HACs you are doing something horribly wrong.

In large fleet fights dampening guardians is very effective.

In small gang fights just neut the **** out of them. If you got HACs, bring a curse. Targeting time dampening might also help.



In the end to counter guardians it is just a matter of applying sufficient tackle to actually hit them and a fleet that knows how to shoot the primary target. Neuting/ECM'ing his guardian friends (or other logistics) works fine.

LordInvisible
Gallente
Nova Ardour
Posted - 2011.01.05 11:21:00 - [20]
 

there is more ways of shutting down 2 guardians in small fleet then shutting down 2 falcons..

nerf ECM IMO..

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.01.05 11:43:00 - [21]
 

Inb4 "nerf everything that isn't active BS playing station games".

Nerf dynamics!

Daniel L'Siata
Gallente
Don't Regret Until Next Keg
Posted - 2011.01.05 13:25:00 - [22]
 

Neuts. There, problem solved.


Jovialmadness
Posted - 2011.01.05 13:36:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20
Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.

I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.

1. Ecm
2. Logistics
3. Superior heavy dps
4. Superior fc'ing
5. Hot dropping supercaps
6. Drake fleets
7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor

Edit yea neuts too.

Shall i go on. Kk

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.01.05 13:44:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Diesel47 on 05/01/2011 13:44:51
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20
Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.

I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.

1. Ecm
2. Logistics
3. Superior heavy dps
4. Superior fc'ing
5. Hot dropping supercaps
6. Drake fleets
7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor

Edit yea neuts too.

Shall i go on. Kk


He is talking about logistics being a problem for small gang pvp and half the counters you give involve blobbing. This post is useless.

raukosen
Posted - 2011.01.05 14:20:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Diesel47
Edited by: Diesel47 on 05/01/2011 13:44:51
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20
Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.

I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.

1. Ecm
2. Logistics
3. Superior heavy dps
4. Superior fc'ing
5. Hot dropping supercaps
6. Drake fleets
7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor

Edit yea neuts too.

Shall i go on. Kk


He is talking about logistics being a problem for small gang pvp and half the counters you give involve blobbing. This post is useless.


Smile, you got trolled!

Jovialmadness
Posted - 2011.01.05 14:51:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: raukosen
Originally by: Diesel47
Edited by: Diesel47 on 05/01/2011 13:44:51
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/01/2011 13:38:20
Any ships in the right combination especially if its common knowledge to pvp'ers of their tactical advantages will be powerful. They may even appear overpowered. Its up to CCP to determine if they are through either listening to the deluge of whines and/or hard data. Its up to the players to break the "overpowered" feel till the decision can be made.

I.e. You put one of the many counters to logistics in your title ffs.

1. Ecm
2. Logistics
3. Superior heavy dps
4. Superior fc'ing
5. Hot dropping supercaps
6. Drake fleets
7. 300 man battle badger lulz fleets for shame factor

Edit yea neuts too.

Shall i go on. Kk


He is talking about logistics being a problem for small gang pvp and half the counters you give involve blobbing. This post is useless.


Smile, you got trolled!


Cool

Needa3
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.01.05 21:45:00 - [27]
 

bring back Area of effect doomsday, a script will do and solve a lot of issues

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 22:08:00 - [28]
 

If your goal is to make supercaps even stronger, certainly.

Needa3
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.01.05 23:25:00 - [29]
 

tell me how that would make em stronger?

like the 300 man blobs with 50+ logistics are a fun fight.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 23:34:00 - [30]
 

only now you notice the unbalance of logis? Its been obvious for a long time...


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