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blankseplocked Time to UNNERF the large weapon systems and platforms
 
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iforshow
Posted - 2011.01.05 15:57:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai
Yup, its time to undo the changes to large weapons and cruise/torp changes.

Due to the changes you made long ago, everyone is flying drakes and other battlecruisers nowadays.
Only reason for that is simple: the medium weapons are way too good and the large weapons can barely hit battlecruisers and lower anymore.

Yes a BS should nail a cruiser and also a battlecruiser, not like it is now, that a good pilot in a BC can nail the average BS pilot EASILY.

rant off.


Look at your comment. Back to mine. Back to yours NOW BACK TO MINE. Sadly, it isn't mine. But if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate crap it could LOOK like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through comments, finding the ones that your comment could look like. Back at mine, what is it? It's a highly effective counter-troll. Look again, MY COMMENT IS NOW DIAMONDS.

Anything is possible when you think before you comment or post.

I'm on a computer.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:03:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Illwill Bill
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 04/01/2011 16:53:37
Originally by: Desya Dak'ann
You obviously don't travel to 0.0 often do you? Drakes are out, the Malestorm is in

Mael is the new FOTM? EMP alpha to counter Drake blobs?

Edit: Also, does this mean that the Drake isn't overpowered anymore? Will the Mael be needing a nerf now?


It means that drake was never overpowered in the first place, something which was already very obvious for a long time considering the rate at which abaddon go through drakes.

Berikath
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:07:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Niveon
Originally by: Solenopsis
But its not because cruiser weapons have 'better tracking' than larger weapon platforms in r/l.
Pretty sure I'd hit small, fast moving things better with small arms fire than naval BS cannons... and that if that small thing was tackled that the BS guns would wreck it fast... what's wrong with Eve?


No, actually you'd hit him a lot better with a Battleship's cannons.

The problem is, you'd also hit the guy next to him. And the building he's in.

Collateral damage is bad, mmkay?

Ur235
Mind Games.
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:13:00 - [34]
 

Well i just took out 3 canes and 1 harby with my megathron today in a fight, dunno where all this imbalance idea is coming from but I dont see it

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:17:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Illwill Bill on 05/01/2011 16:45:36
Originally by: Furb Killer

It means that drake was never overpowered in the first place, something which was already very obvious for a long time considering the rate at which abaddon go through drakes.

Indeed! The edit was a sarcastic comment about everyone and their mothers laughing at Drakes until someone brought them in great numbers.

Originally by: Berikath

No, actually you'd hit him a lot better with a Battleship's cannons.

The problem is, you'd also hit the guy next to him. And the building he's in.

Collateral damage is bad, mmkay?

That requires the shell to hit something. In space, the projectile will go on forever if it misses, so you actually need a direct hit.

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:59:00 - [36]
 

it's pretty silly to have a game where a battleship lives in fear of a small pack of frigates. if that was how things worked "in game logic" battleships would just not be built. after all who is going to be stupid enough to put 5000 crew on a 125 mill isk warship so they can be easily killed by 5 frigates with a total of 25 crew and a cost of a couple million isk total. if it worked that way there would be nothing out there but clouds of cheap expendafrigates in the navies.
the fact it doesn't is just evidence of the game designers catering to the silly buggers who think frigates are ubercool.

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:02:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Illwill Bill
You saying we should give the BS-sized weapons the tracking and signature resolution of their smaller bretheren?

There is a reason why modern RL navies consists of advanced cruisers and (super)carriers. Wink


the design paradigm in eve though is rather clearly modelled on ww2 era ship combat. early ww2 at that.

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:09:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Niveon
Originally by: Solenopsis
But its not because cruiser weapons have 'better tracking' than larger weapon platforms in r/l.
Pretty sure I'd hit small, fast moving things better with small arms fire than naval BS cannons... and that if that small thing was tackled that the BS guns would wreck it fast... what's wrong with Eve?


you need to seriously reconsider your definition of "small". you might also want to deeply ponder the notion of "tracking". you don't chase the target with the big guns you aim at where the frigate will be the next time it comes round.

the fact frigates can survive being on a battlefied with battleships and cruisers has more to do with limitations on the numbers of guns mounted on larger ships than any inherent virtues of size and speed of the frigate. if you look at a battleship you'll see it mounts a lot more weapons than simply the main turrets. as for speed we have weapon systems today that can pick inbound missiles off with ease. the british have a missile system that can pick a 5" shell out of the air aimed at something else. hitting a 50m long frigate is literally child's play in comparison.

So Cash
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:14:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Illwill Bill
You saying we should give the BS-sized weapons the tracking and signature resolution of their smaller bretheren?

There is a reason why modern RL navies consists of advanced cruisers and (super)carriers. Wink


Yes there is, the reason for that is because both ships can blow the crap out of any sized ship. You're telling me a current (super)carrier can't fire off a tomahawk or exoset missile and take out a frigate vessel?

I can understand tracking on guns but when they do land I don't see how the size of the ship you're hitting has any relevance to how much damage it should do. If fire a cannon ball at a mouse and it hits the mouse I can't expect the mouse to walk away can I.

Ah well Eve isn't based on real life so we can't use those examples.

Battlecruisers and Cruisers are way OP compared to Battleships.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:18:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Ehranavaar
it's pretty silly to have a game where a battleship lives in fear of a small pack of frigates. if that was how things worked "in game logic" battleships would just not be built. after all who is going to be stupid enough to put 5000 crew on a 125 mill isk warship so they can be easily killed by 5 frigates with a total of 25 crew and a cost of a couple million isk total. if it worked that way there would be nothing out there but clouds of cheap expendafrigates in the navies.
the fact it doesn't is just evidence of the game designers catering to the silly buggers who think frigates are ubercool.


Right up untill a well fitted and flown Domi eats them alive and asks for more.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:20:00 - [41]
 

chuckle @ transversal comments.

Who are you PVP'ing that doesn't keep their transversal 300+ on you? Cyno Kessies and SBUs?

OP, what are you proposing CCP do then?

Make BS have some tracking bonuses or something? Not really clear what you want them to do that wouldn't just filter down to lower tiers and make that buff relationally useless.

At the moment, the big fish analogy only holds true for the following (1v1):

- Hac wins vs T1 frigate, useless T2 frigate pilots (see transversal comment first line)
- BC wins vs all frigate hulls
- Supercap + Titan wins vs anything really.
- Carrier wins vs BS (that doesn't get out of its point range)

EVE reverse Truisms:

- Frigate wins vs BS (that doesn't have nuets and light drones)
- Hac wins vs BS (that doesn't have nuets and drones)

BS are pretty cheap though, so I'm cool with them dying to a frigate that's not prepared for them.

So .. again, what's the OP want done again?

KhaniKirai
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:29:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: heheheh
Originally by: Barakkus
If you can't hit something with a BS then you need to learn about transversal.


This tbh, by the sounds of it OP and some others are very poor pilots indeed.


Nope, money to burn, tons of skills maxed out, can fly multiple races, played for years in 0.0, lived for long time in low sec years ago as well, been there, done that.

The game is just so unbalanced on this moment, that even with spec. skills high, loads of skills maxed, BS lvl 5 skills, that IF you fly a BS, that against roughly 90 percent of all kinds of targets, you can get the same dps in a bc and still have better tank, higher agility and speed as well, for maybe 1/4 of the cost of a BS.

But hey, maybe if you play a bit longer, instead of wasting time on forums posting silly remarks, you might find out facts like this as well :D

baltec1
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:39:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai
Originally by: heheheh
Originally by: Barakkus
If you can't hit something with a BS then you need to learn about transversal.


This tbh, by the sounds of it OP and some others are very poor pilots indeed.


Nope, money to burn, tons of skills maxed out, can fly multiple races, played for years in 0.0, lived for long time in low sec years ago as well, been there, done that.

The game is just so unbalanced on this moment, that even with spec. skills high, loads of skills maxed, BS lvl 5 skills, that IF you fly a BS, that against roughly 90 percent of all kinds of targets, you can get the same dps in a bc and still have better tank, higher agility and speed as well, for maybe 1/4 of the cost of a BS.

But hey, maybe if you play a bit longer, instead of wasting time on forums posting silly remarks, you might find out facts like this as well :D



Just because you can't pvp in BS doesn't mean others can't.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:47:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai
Originally by: heheheh
Originally by: Barakkus
If you can't hit something with a BS then you need to learn about transversal.


This tbh, by the sounds of it OP and some others are very poor pilots indeed.


Nope, money to burn, tons of skills maxed out, can fly multiple races, played for years in 0.0, lived for long time in low sec years ago as well, been there, done that.

The game is just so unbalanced on this moment, that even with spec. skills high, loads of skills maxed, BS lvl 5 skills, that IF you fly a BS, that against roughly 90 percent of all kinds of targets, you can get the same dps in a bc and still have better tank, higher agility and speed as well, for maybe 1/4 of the cost of a BS.

But hey, maybe if you play a bit longer, instead of wasting time on forums posting silly remarks, you might find out facts like this as well :D



I would agree my BC does as much damage as my BS in most instances, as the BC will be making perfect shots alot more often. BS has far more tank though. You won't gank someone on station, then tank the sentries and their gang then dock with a battlecruiser.

BC are probably the best class in the game atm though. Cheap, high damage, good enough buffer they don't die instantly and can still outrun alot of things - especially nano bc.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:52:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai


Yes a BS should nail a cruiser and also a battlecruiser, not like it is now, that a good pilot in a BC can nail the average BS pilot EASILY.

rant off.


Fit medium-size weapons to your BS and go pwn?

KhaniKirai
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:55:00 - [46]
 

Sure I can pvp in a raven or abaddon or whatever BS and blow stuff apart, but it's a total joke in efficiency nowadays.
Why fly something, thats 5x as expensive, twice as easy to kill, twice so slow, when you can easier take a BC sized ship?

Its simple:
Missile damage for example is relying on penalties the attacker gets based on difference in signature and speed of target and what signature/explosion velocity the missile has.
The problem however with those is: the defender isnt penalized for having a bad signature or low speed. So you can blow up your signature the size of a titan on for example a BC and if your speed stays good, even a maxed skill missile user with missile rigs wont do crap against you with bs sized missiles, your speed is already enough to cripple the damage, even if your sig is the size of a titan....

With guns its just the insane penalties you get nearby, we all know that you can blow up frigs easily on huge distance and if the target is stupid enough to fly directly towards you.

Oh well, who cares, not gonna leave EVE either. Picked caldari in the time everyone and their mother in law was flying the superiour amarr ships, then those were overnerved for some years and everyone went flying my non-favorite class. Now slowly more and more are using the minmatar stuff, slowly realizing the shield resistance nerf made them a bit more effective compared to the other races.

Niklas
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:00:00 - [47]
 

Make BS bonuses apply to all sized weapons

Make the dual heavy lasers a middle ground in dps, tracking, and sig res between megas and heavys(repeat for the rest of weapons)

BS are revitalized, have more fitting options for small gang combats.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:01:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri

Only dumbs the game down if you're too dumb to realize that...if youn want weapons to kill frigates you have to mount frigate scale weapons. I know, I know..."Mixing ranges is bad", well if you dont want to do that be sure to bring frigates with you as cover then.




Or you're just too dumb to be part of a game where the combat is more complex than "OMG, use big weapons to take down BIG SHIPS, use little weapons to take down LITTLE SHIPS". What, you don't realize that this is completely unrealistic and an absolutely ******ed way to build a large spaceship with no countermeasures against smaller craft in such a universe? Don't worry, apparently you're not alone...

baltec1
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:01:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai
Sure I can pvp in a raven or abaddon or whatever BS and blow stuff apart, but it's a total joke in efficiency nowadays.
Why fly something, thats 5x as expensive, twice as easy to kill, twice so slow, when you can easier take a BC sized ship?





Problem with that argument is that my battleships are just as fast or faster than most BC yet have a greater buffer, much better neuts and more DPS dispite the tracking and after insurance are not all that expensive.



Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:02:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai
Sure I can pvp in a raven or abaddon or whatever BS and blow stuff apart, but it's a total joke in efficiency nowadays.
Why fly something, thats 5x as expensive, twice as easy to kill, twice so slow, when you can easier take a BC sized ship?


This is not a gun problem you are sketching, but a price problem. BS are 3x-4x as expensive as a BC, but not 3x-4x as efficient. As there is no way for Battleships to get cheaper without CCP intervention, then yes, battleship use would go down.

I honestly believe a large part of the current disparity between the classes is created by rigs. A BC with rigs is comparable in many areas to a BS without rigs, plus has some advantages to boot. Rigs on a battleship are massively more expensive, and hence battleships get only a small advantage for a huge cost. Hence BS are not cost-effective anymore.

Captin Charisma
Fabulous Hair & Tight Jeans Club
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:07:00 - [51]
 

Bring back 90% webs

KhaniKirai
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:47:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Selinate
Originally by: Syn Callibri

Only dumbs the game down if you're too dumb to realize that...if youn want weapons to kill frigates you have to mount frigate scale weapons. I know, I know..."Mixing ranges is bad", well if you dont want to do that be sure to bring frigates with you as cover then.




Or you're just too dumb to be part of a game where the combat is more complex than "OMG, use big weapons to take down BIG SHIPS, use little weapons to take down LITTLE SHIPS". What, you don't realize that this is completely unrealistic and an absolutely ******ed way to build a large spaceship with no countermeasures against smaller craft in such a universe? Don't worry, apparently you're not alone...


Dont worry, most small ships stay far away from my cruise missiles if needed too.
Yet again: why bother with a bloody BS, if the BC does the job even better on that moment?

KhaniKirai
Posted - 2011.01.05 18:49:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Sure I can pvp in a raven or abaddon or whatever BS and blow stuff apart, but it's a total joke in efficiency nowadays.
Why fly something, thats 5x as expensive, twice as easy to kill, twice so slow, when you can easier take a BC sized ship?


This is not a gun problem you are sketching, but a price problem. BS are 3x-4x as expensive as a BC, but not 3x-4x as efficient. As there is no way for Battleships to get cheaper without CCP intervention, then yes, battleship use would go down.

I honestly believe a large part of the current disparity between the classes is created by rigs. A BC with rigs is comparable in many areas to a BS without rigs, plus has some advantages to boot. Rigs on a battleship are massively more expensive, and hence battleships get only a small advantage for a huge cost. Hence BS are not cost-effective anymore.


You are one of the few, that really understands it at least a bit, the others dont look further, then just ship stats.
People use what is most cost efficient in eve: because that is the better ships to have.
If BS and BC were still balanced, there would be more BS on the field, yet its just handfull that is being used, compared to the sick amounts of BC.

Berikath
Posted - 2011.01.05 19:01:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Illwill Bill

Originally by: Berikath

No, actually you'd hit him a lot better with a Battleship's cannons.

The problem is, you'd also hit the guy next to him. And the building he's in.

Collateral damage is bad, mmkay?

That requires the shell to hit something. In space, the projectile will go on forever if it misses, so you actually need a direct hit.


Person was saying IRL they'd hit stuff better with small arms than battleship cannons. Obviously it's a bad analogy for a number of reasons, not the least of which are.... yes, this is space, things behave differently.

That said... this is space thousands of years in the future. If you want to talk about this in terms of doing things intelligently if it was it's own reality; we have airburst and timed shells now- why can't ammunition be rigged to detonate on proximity to target? BS sized artillery guns are 1,400mm. That's a shell with a diameter of 1.4 meters. That's a bit over 1.4 cubic meters of ordinance. 50.7 cubic feet. A sphere as big around as a (short) person is high.

If it detonates 20 meters away from a frigate, it's still gonna bring a whole lot of pain. When you get right down to it... why don't they have a space version of Flak? Maybe call it Splak. Battleships shoot it at frigates/drones, frigates/drones go "oh god.... so many holes in me... oh god!", fall over, and die.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.01.05 19:07:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Caldari 5
Originally by: HeIIfire11
I agree battleships should at least wtf pwn a battlecruiser.Every ship should pwn 1 ship class smaller but not more.


I'd agree with this, Every ship class should be able to kill the class 1 size smaller. We currently have 2 ship classes that aren't doing this too well atm, Battleships and Destroyers.


Are you actually saying destroyers can't hit frigates???

Anyhow cruisers can't kill frigs any easier than bs kill cruisers. Try killing an orbiting claw in an omen and see how that works for you.

EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:15:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: KhaniKirai
Yup, its time to undo the changes to large weapons and cruise/torp changes.

Due to the changes you made long ago, everyone is flying drakes and other battlecruisers nowadays.
Only reason for that is simple: the medium weapons are way too good and the large weapons can barely hit battlecruisers and lower anymore.

Yes a BS should nail a cruiser and also a battlecruiser, not like it is now, that a good pilot in a BC can nail the average BS pilot EASILY.

rant off.


You just need to fit medium guns on your battleship

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:38:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Ehranavaar
it's pretty silly to have a game where a battleship lives in fear of a small pack of frigates. if that was how things worked "in game logic" battleships would just not be built. after all who is going to be stupid enough to put 5000 crew on a 125 mill isk warship so they can be easily killed by 5 frigates with a total of 25 crew and a cost of a couple million isk total. if it worked that way there would be nothing out there but clouds of cheap expendafrigates in the navies.
the fact it doesn't is just evidence of the game designers catering to the silly buggers who think frigates are ubercool.


Battleships were cool once, then people invented motor torpedo boats which would zoom in close and sink the battleships whose silly big guns couldn't hit them, so they had to invent motor torpedo boat destroyers which were smaller and faster with smaller guns to defend the big battleships. This worked ok but then people invented submarines which are small and sneaky and could sink the battleships without the battleships being able to fight back, so they made frigates that were smaller and faster and equiped with special weapons to protect the battleships. This worked ok but then people invented planes which would come along and sink battleships from above with bombs and rockets while the battleships couldn't hit them back with their silly big guns, so they took the frigates and destroyers and made some with special guns which could shoot down planes to protect the battleships. Finally they realised there was no point in having the battleships and got rid of them.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:43:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Doddy on 05/01/2011 20:45:29
Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: Illwill Bill

Originally by: Berikath

No, actually you'd hit him a lot better with a Battleship's cannons.

The problem is, you'd also hit the guy next to him. And the building he's in.

Collateral damage is bad, mmkay?

That requires the shell to hit something. In space, the projectile will go on forever if it misses, so you actually need a direct hit.


Person was saying IRL they'd hit stuff better with small arms than battleship cannons.


Modern warships use small calibre high rof guns and small precision targetted high velocity missiles to engage small targets such as planes, missiles and motor boats at close range, not battleship cannons or cruise missiles which would just miss. Your analogy is just plane wrong.

The problem with eve is that you can't fit 10 or 12 such weapons alongside your main armament, instead you would have to sacrifice main armament for those weapons plus they would be worse than when fitted on smaller craft.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2011.01.05 20:50:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 05/01/2011 20:52:36
Originally by: Selinate

Only dumbs the game down if you're too dumb to realize that...if youn want weapons to kill frigates you have to mount frigate scale weapons. I know, I know..."Mixing ranges is bad", well if you dont want to do that be sure to bring frigates with you as cover then.




Or you're just too dumb to be part of a game where the combat is more complex than "OMG, use big weapons to take down BIG SHIPS, use little weapons to take down LITTLE SHIPS". What, you don't realize that this is completely unrealistic and an absolutely ******ed way to build a large spaceship with no countermeasures against smaller craft in such a universe? Don't worry, apparently you're not alone...


ORLY? Then why don't Aircraft Carriers just sail into a combat hot-spot all by themselves or a New Jersey Class Battleship (when they did) for that matter? Why do they sail into combat with a "Task-force" of smaller vessels around them? Why has history proven time and again that a large "Ship of the Line" cannot defend itself well from a group of small 1 or 2 man fighters/Bombers/Torpedo Bombers...OR a group of smaller, faster, ships that can get in under its big guns?

Hear that *pop* sound? Proly not because your head is still in your own ass...heres .01 ISK, go buy a clue noob-kins.


Nanferr
Posted - 2011.01.05 21:50:00 - [60]
 

Quote:
OP needs to learn about transversal. Only way a BC could killa a BS is if it had scram/web while BS did not. I regularly gank BC with a BS, just make sure not to try and orbit or something stupid you do with small ships.


tracking disruptors
outblobbed

Battlecruisers annihilate Battleships cost effectively.

Just like how 25 Destroyers annihilate Battlecruisers cost effectively.


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