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blankseplocked What i HATE about Black Ops
 
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12433412
Freemason Core
Posted - 2010.12.24 23:54:00 - [1]
 

BO are great.

Covert cyno rules are poo.

Let me tell you a story. Very short one. I took a recon, probed out some mission runner. Got in range, uncloaked and tackled him. Then i pressed the cyno. Nobody is coming. The cyno did not activate. I try again. No, the bloody cyno does not work. A few jumps from my gang with the target on a platter...

[ 2010.12.24 18:28:51 ] (notify) You cannot activate this module here because natural phenomena are disrupting its operation.

Then i get into low shields and am forced to warp off. Imagine the frustration. There was no telling if it will work or not. No indication nothing. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not. This happened to me so many times and it's absolutely no fun neither it is helping anybody.

So, please, fix the cyno.
- MAKE AN INDICATION if the cyno will work or not before it is actually pressed (either make a UI deadspace indicator stating clearly no mwd or cyno works there or grey the modules out)
- enable cyno inside missions that have no gates (some work some don't but how on earth am i supposed to anticipate that?!)
- if mission has gate make sure it works on the entrance gate (alternatively enable cyno inside but jump the ships to the first gate)
- i will be only repeating others saying it should work in cynojammed systems
- there are many good ideas around which i won't be repeating either

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Cheers,

124









Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.12.25 00:00:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 25/12/2010 00:00:06
This post just gave me an idea. Modules that can't operate in specific areas should be lit up to indicate that they can't be activated in their current locations. At the same time, bonuses applied (either via gangs or natural phenomena such as wormholes) should be displayed in a corner of the module icon, or next to the ship's HP itself when resists/health are concerned.

It would remove a lot of the silent "ctrl+F or right-click to find out" stuff we've got to do today to find out if things are working correctly.

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.12.25 06:07:00 - [3]
 

This is what you HATE about Black Ops? WTF do Black Ops have to do with this? This has to do with an anomaly or mission that doesn't allow certain modules to be activated, has nothing to do with black ops. And then you wonder why CCP never reads any of this crap.

12433412
Freemason Core
Posted - 2010.12.25 08:09:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: 12433412 on 25/12/2010 08:43:48
Right, now your little you feels much better because you showed me how smart you are and that i talk crap. Congratulations.

But to your question: Yes, i find this utterly annoying. As you seem to have never used it, i give you something to think about: Imagine you engage in 1 on 1 combat but your guns will not work due to some hidden mechanic. Sometimes they will sometimes they won't. Needless say you will ALWAYS get shot back at. Now run if you can. Makes you want to try it again, uh? God knows, maybe this time it will work.

Black ops is a tactic and it is suffering from this.

I proposed what could be changed too:
- include an indicator of them natural phenomena so you do not have to find out the hard way amidst the fight
- alternatively grey out modules that cannot be activated so it is, again, obvious that they cannot be used

EDIT: typo

Echo Byteme
Posted - 2010.12.25 10:50:00 - [5]
 

ahw poor OP could not get his kill so start complaining about game mechanics not in his favor.. stop whining and accept YOUR loss.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.12.25 11:00:00 - [6]
 

The UI certainly needs work.

An indication that certain modules can or cannot be activated on the current grid would be useful. In fact, an indication that certain modules cannot be used at all would be useful - grid is a deadspace, thus MWD/cyno won't work, or you are cloaked thus no modules will work, etc.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.25 11:30:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 25/12/2010 11:30:32
Not supported.

There needs to be some risk to you when you try to cyno in a gang of multiple people to kick the ass of 1 lone missioner.

That risk can be negated by a little bit of knowledge gathering. I can warp into any mission and tell within a few seconds exactly which mission it is and the type of deadspace.

Skill / knowledge in this case was greater then your gang and your lack of skill / knowledge almost got you killed.

IMO that is EvE working as intended.

Saerinea Kael
Posted - 2010.12.25 15:16:00 - [8]
 

I think that this would be an excellent feature. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've tried to MWD in a deadspace only to be disappointed, sometimes after warping back to station to specifically fit a MWD after clearing all the rats.

12433412
Freemason Core
Posted - 2010.12.25 16:12:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 25/12/2010 11:30:32
Not supported.

There needs to be some risk to you when you try to cyno in a gang of multiple people to kick the ass of 1 lone missioner.

That risk can be negated by a little bit of knowledge gathering. I can warp into any mission and tell within a few seconds exactly which mission it is and the type of deadspace.

Skill / knowledge in this case was greater then your gang and your lack of skill / knowledge almost got you killed.

IMO that is EvE working as intended.


I, for one, agree not. I myself do a lvl5 mission from time to time. You can do a mission in lowsec and stay completely safe if you obey a few basic rules. Watching local, using directional scanner (now with probes added to overview) and usinng cloak being some of them. If you ignore all safety precautions it is okay that you die. Those targets did just that. I dare disagree that there should be funky hidden mechanic capable of screwing up a well plotted plan to exploit your ignorance. I believe that you yourself should be responsible how well you fare.


Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2010.12.25 16:16:00 - [10]
 

The game is definately working as intended. The OP simply wants an indicator to tell him if a certain module will work or not before he goes to try it. That is reasonable. Put the indicator around the module itself. A glow or something if it isn't going to work.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.25 16:35:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 25/12/2010 17:05:23
Originally by: 12433412
BO are great.

Covert cyno rules are poo.

Let me tell you a story. Very short one. I took a recon, probed out some mission runner. Got in range, uncloaked and tackled him. Then i pressed the cyno. Nobody is coming. The cyno did not activate. I try again. No, the bloody cyno does not work. A few jumps from my gang with the target on a platter...

[ 2010.12.24 18:28:51 ] (notify) You cannot activate this module here because natural phenomena are disrupting its operation.

Then i get into low shields and am forced to warp off. Imagine the frustration. There was no telling if it will work or not. No indication nothing. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not. This happened to me so many times and it's absolutely no fun neither it is helping anybody.

So, please, fix the cyno.
- MAKE AN INDICATION if the cyno will work or not before it is actually pressed (either make a UI deadspace indicator stating clearly no mwd or cyno works there or grey the modules out)
- enable cyno inside missions that have no gates (some work some don't but how on earth am i supposed to anticipate that?!)
- if mission has gate make sure it works on the entrance gate (alternatively enable cyno inside but jump the ships to the first gate)
- i will be only repeating others saying it should work in cynojammed systems
- there are many good ideas around which i won't be repeating either

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Cheers,

124
OMG! That is AWEFUL! You mean there was almost some risk to you? CCP needs to fix this PRONTO! The game mechanics definitely need to be changed to cater to you and your mission-runner ganking buddies.

CCP, THIS SHOULD BE YOUR PRIORITY NAO!


Twilight Runner
Posted - 2010.12.25 17:02:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Twilight Runner on 25/12/2010 17:02:27
So ur whining cause u couldnt jump a lone mission runner for a easy kill,

12433412
Freemason Core
Posted - 2010.12.25 17:04:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: 12433412
BO are great.

Covert cyno rules are poo.

Let me tell you a story. Very short one. I took a recon, probed out some mission runner. Got in range, uncloaked and tackled him. Then i pressed the cyno. Nobody is coming. The cyno did not activate. I try again. No, the bloody cyno does not work. A few jumps from my gang with the target on a platter...

...

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Cheers,

124
OMG! That is AWEFUL! You mean there was almost some risk to you? CCP needs to fix this PRONTO! The game mechanics definitely need to be changed to cater to you.

CCP, THIS SHOULD BE YOUR PRIORITY NAO!




Heh, troll.

If you read carefully, which I believe you can, you will find out that risk is the least of my worries. I have no problem opening the cyno with a poorly tanked rapier where there are 3 hostile drakes. If you actually know anything about covert cynos you know that doing so pins me to the spot for 30 seconds. I have about 35k ehp. An average drake has about 400 dps. You can do the math. Everything says I should die and I still do it.

The fact i have to leave in low shields referred to annoyance and frustration rather than not being able to handle risk. I'm not asking anybody to buff anything. I want the mechanic that is hidden and unpredictable made clear and obvious.

On a different note but somehow related:
The changes made to warp scramblers made it the first modules that could directly turn off a module of another ship. I think it would be just fair to reflect that in the UI too. You have a scrambler on you, your mwd is greyed out, you cannot use it. You are in deadspace, your covert cyno is greyed out, you cannot use it. Is there somebody half serious who could advocate the mechanic as it is with real arguments? Somebody outside of the "Shut up, everything's fine!" crowd.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2010.12.25 18:22:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 25/12/2010 11:30:32
Not supported.

There needs to be some risk to you when you try to cyno in a gang of multiple people to kick the ass of 1 lone missioner.

That risk can be negated by a little bit of knowledge gathering. I can warp into any mission and tell within a few seconds exactly which mission it is and the type of deadspace.

Skill / knowledge in this case was greater then your gang and your lack of skill / knowledge almost got you killed.

IMO that is EvE working as intended.


I begin to think that you only want to keep stupid game mechanics, for the sake of risk, whether it's true thought of and developed risk or just some bug.

Toric Gaul
Posted - 2010.12.25 22:18:00 - [15]
 

Supported ONLY IF hotdrops are no longer instant. If you open a cyno, it should take at least 30 seconds before anyone can jump in. Call it "calibration time" required to lock onto the cyno.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.25 23:07:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Toric Gaul
If you open a cyno, it should take at least 30 seconds before anyone can jump in. Call it "calibration time" required to lock onto the cyno.


If you open a cyno in a mission the rats should drop everything they do and fire on the cyno ship. It is clearly the highest danger there as it is calling reinforcements.

Saerinea Kael
Posted - 2010.12.26 00:17:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Toric Gaul
If you open a cyno, it should take at least 30 seconds before anyone can jump in. Call it "calibration time" required to lock onto the cyno.


Originally by: Venkul Mul
If you open a cyno in a mission the rats should drop everything they do and fire on the cyno ship. It is clearly the highest danger there as it is calling reinforcements.


Why? What balance purpose does this serve? How does making an unobvious ("hidden" isn't a good word, it certainly isn't hidden) mechanic obvious change the balance? The short answer is you simply want to be safer.

What the OP wants is easier access to information that any reformed missioner or carebear vet would know without even thinking: "is this complex deadspace?" Whether or not this is a good idea is up for debate, but it certainly wouldn't need any balancing factors.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.26 01:57:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: 12433412
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 25/12/2010 11:30:32
Not supported.

There needs to be some risk to you when you try to cyno in a gang of multiple people to kick the ass of 1 lone missioner.

That risk can be negated by a little bit of knowledge gathering. I can warp into any mission and tell within a few seconds exactly which mission it is and the type of deadspace.

Skill / knowledge in this case was greater then your gang and your lack of skill / knowledge almost got you killed.

IMO that is EvE working as intended.


I, for one, agree not. I myself do a lvl5 mission from time to time. You can do a mission in lowsec and stay completely safe if you obey a few basic rules. Watching local, using directional scanner (now with probes added to overview) and usinng cloak being some of them. If you ignore all safety precautions it is okay that you die. Those targets did just that. I dare disagree that there should be funky hidden mechanic capable of screwing up a well plotted plan to exploit your ignorance. I believe that you yourself should be responsible how well you fare.



Yeah missions have some annoying elements I agree. Worse one are the beacons after using acceleration gate that randomly decloak you.

Problem is if you make things way to easy for the hunter you'll end up with no prey. And the threat of having a crapload of people cyno'ing into a mission is huge and means instant death.

There needs to be some barriers to such an instant gank squad coming from out of system.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2010.12.26 04:11:00 - [19]
 

deadspace pwned lololol

12433412
Freemason Core
Posted - 2010.12.26 09:41:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
There needs to be some barriers to such an instant gank squad coming from out of system.


But that is exactly what BO is supposed to do - hit and run. Avoid jumping and warping, making the kill and getting the hell out. It is explicitly meant to avoid hostile scouts.

However, the gank squad is not coming out of nowhere. In most aspects BO is not different from conventional gangs. You still have to find a suitable target, probe it down and tackle it. There is no way the recon (BO or not) can avoid being seen in local. Second, you will see probes long before anything can actually come to you. All this is exactly the same for BO as well as non-BO gangs. If you do not look for probes yopu will get killed regardles (with conventional gang always, with BO only if the God of the Mission let's you turn the cyno on). The only difference is that a BO gang does not have to jump through gates and warp around. If you rely on scouts for safety then yes, BO is more dangerous to you, otherwise there is no major difference in threat level.

Gemberslaafje
Vivicide
Posted - 2010.12.26 09:52:00 - [21]
 

Let me tell you a story. Very short one. I took a Megathron, found a good mission. Warped to it. Then I pressed my MWD. It did not activate. I try again. No, the bloody MWD does not work. A few 100 km from the rats with no way of getting there.

[ 2010.12.24 18:28:51 ] (notify) You cannot activate this module here because natural phenomena are disrupting its operation.

So, please, fix the UI.
- MAKE AN INDICATION if the MWD will work or not before it's actually pressed

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.26 10:34:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/12/2010 10:43:12

Originally by: Saerinea Kael
Originally by: Toric Gaul
If you open a cyno, it should take at least 30 seconds before anyone can jump in. Call it "calibration time" required to lock onto the cyno.


Originally by: Venkul Mul
If you open a cyno in a mission the rats should drop everything they do and fire on the cyno ship. It is clearly the highest danger there as it is calling reinforcements.


Why? What balance purpose does this serve? How does making an unobvious ("hidden" isn't a good word, it certainly isn't hidden) mechanic obvious change the balance? The short answer is you simply want to be safer.

What the OP wants is easier access to information that any reformed missioner or carebear vet would know without even thinking: "is this complex deadspace?" Whether or not this is a good idea is up for debate, but it certainly wouldn't need any balancing factors.



What the OP want is easter hot drops. Fine, but it should have a cost.

If the OP is entitled to get more safety as he will know if his tactics work he should pay with more risk on another side.

It is fun how the big "PvPers with balls of steel" feel the need to be supported by NPC in their fights.

Originally by: 12433412
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
There needs to be some barriers to such an instant gank squad coming from out of system.


But that is exactly what BO is supposed to do - hit and run. Avoid jumping and warping, making the kill and getting the hell out. It is explicitly meant to avoid hostile scouts.

However, the gank squad is not coming out of nowhere. In most aspects BO is not different from conventional gangs. You still have to find a suitable target, probe it down and tackle it. There is no way the recon (BO or not) can avoid being seen in local. Second, you will see probes long before anything can actually come to you. All this is exactly the same for BO as well as non-BO gangs. If you do not look for probes yopu will get killed regardles (with conventional gang always, with BO only if the God of the Mission let's you turn the cyno on). The only difference is that a BO gang does not have to jump through gates and warp around. If you rely on scouts for safety then yes, BO is more dangerous to you, otherwise there is no major difference in threat level.


Read a bit about the tactics to put your probes in range of the directional scanner for only 1 cycle.


Originally by: 12433412

So, please, fix the cyno.
- MAKE AN INDICATION if the cyno will work or not before it is actually pressed (either make a UI deadspace indicator stating clearly no mwd or cyno works there or grey the modules out)
- enable cyno inside missions that have no gates (some work some don't but how on earth am i supposed to anticipate that?!)
- if mission has gate make sure it works on the entrance gate (alternatively enable cyno inside but jump the ships to the first gate)
- i will be only repeating others saying it should work in cynojammed systems
- there are many good ideas around which i won't be repeating either



This stuff sum up to "I want easier ganks in missions", nothin more.

12433412
Freemason Core
Posted - 2010.12.26 13:06:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Toric Gaul
If you open a cyno, it should take at least 30 seconds before anyone can jump in. Call it "calibration time" required to lock onto the cyno.


If you open a cyno in a mission the rats should drop everything they do and fire on the cyno ship. It is clearly the highest danger there as it is calling reinforcements.


Okay, now what exactly does this (or anything else you've said for that matter) have to do with anything I said? Why not start your own thread with your brilliant ideas?

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.26 13:29:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 26/12/2010 13:30:48
Originally by: 12433412
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
There needs to be some barriers to such an instant gank squad coming from out of system.


But that is exactly what BO is supposed to do - hit and run. Avoid jumping and warping, making the kill and getting the hell out. It is explicitly meant to avoid hostile scouts.


Yeah but I think the BO's was meant for a different role. Not for ganking solo missioners. Don't get me wrong, I love killing mission runners but I don't think the idea was for them (or cyno's) to be used for that purpose.

Covert T3 is a better tool, can do the same job but much better in the scanning and ganking missioners role. Same price too. Only difference is you need to fit a scrambler and have the gang jump in from next system instead.

Karlhockey Forte
ShinRa Space Exploration
Posted - 2010.12.26 17:31:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Karlhockey Forte on 26/12/2010 17:36:31
I cannot see where the OP wants easier ganks in his description of the problem.

All he wants is the indication that he CAN'T hotdrop in X area. How does that lead to easier ganks?

If it is changed the way he is wanting, it will just skip steps.

Before:
-Warp in
-Uncloak
-Point
-Try to light cyno
-F@#$!
-Warp off

After:
-Warp in
-F@#$!
-Warp off

In the situation he is able to light it, really doesn't matter either way if this change is added, he will hotdrop and carebear tears will be shed reguardless.

Saerinea Kael
Posted - 2010.12.26 17:41:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/12/2010 10:43:12

What the OP want is easter hot drops. Fine, but it should have a cost.

If the OP is entitled to get more safety as he will know if his tactics work he should pay with more risk on another side.

It is fun how the big "PvPers with balls of steel" feel the need to be supported by NPC in their fights.




No. While upon rereading the OP's list I can see how you can think that he wants easier hot drops (which I do disagree with; hot drops should be difficult to do without high organization), I believe that the OP wants one of the changes made, so that people will be able to tell when modules will work inside a deadspace. For instance; if I warp to a mission site and see a jumpgate then I should be able to instantly know that cynos and MWDs will work at the first gate but not inside because it is a standard (in this case the all modules would work at the first jumpgate, but none inside); or I should know because when inside a random complex where they decide to not work they grey out.

As it is this is not the case, and the only people who can really use the knowledge of what modules work in what missions are the ones who can identify the missions by sight. This is bad design for two reasons: first, is that knowledge should be readily available to those that know where to look (and after a year of piracy the only mission I can identify is AE, even though I used to grind missions nonstop); second, is that standards and consistency are an important part of any decision making process. I for one would be fine with a simple popup or message in local that read "this is deadspace" appearing every time I warped into deadspace if I knew there was a list of modules that never worked in deadspace. As is the only way to know whether you are in deadspace is to know if you are in deadspace.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.27 07:52:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Saerinea Kael
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/12/2010 10:43:12

What the OP want is easter hot drops. Fine, but it should have a cost.

If the OP is entitled to get more safety as he will know if his tactics work he should pay with more risk on another side.

It is fun how the big "PvPers with balls of steel" feel the need to be supported by NPC in their fights.




No. While upon rereading the OP's list I can see how you can think that he wants easier hot drops (which I do disagree with; hot drops should be difficult to do without high organization), I believe that the OP wants one of the changes made, so that people will be able to tell when modules will work inside a deadspace. For instance; if I warp to a mission site and see a jumpgate then I should be able to instantly know that cynos and MWDs will work at the first gate but not inside because it is a standard (in this case the all modules would work at the first jumpgate, but none inside); or I should know because when inside a random complex where they decide to not work they grey out.

As it is this is not the case, and the only people who can really use the knowledge of what modules work in what missions are the ones who can identify the missions by sight. This is bad design for two reasons: first, is that knowledge should be readily available to those that know where to look (and after a year of piracy the only mission I can identify is AE, even though I used to grind missions nonstop); second, is that standards and consistency are an important part of any decision making process. I for one would be fine with a simple popup or message in local that read "this is deadspace" appearing every time I warped into deadspace if I knew there was a list of modules that never worked in deadspace. As is the only way to know whether you are in deadspace is to know if you are in deadspace.

You are actually trying to argue that experience should be < mechanics. As in someone who spends the time to learn the missions so they can tell which is hotdroppable and which is not should be equalized by an automatic indicator with someone who doesn't learn?

Should we then have indicators for things like traversal, warp scrambler range, cap usage, shield booster pulsing and for all the the other low level of RL skill required to pvp in EvE?

I don't think EvE should babysit us. The level of RL skill required is already way to low imo.


 

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