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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.12.24 09:50:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Kai Yuen
?????

Huh?
You mean you don't play dead when hit with TD, or that damps do not cycle dependent on range or that neuts are not standard on 99% of all ships or ..
If you are incapable of understanding what is written, please do say so and I'll be happy to elaborate.

Not sure why you drag the "eWar in fleets" up again, they are all pretty even on that scale (read: useless), but I have a sneaking suspicion that your definition of a small-gang equals my definition of a blob.
Low-sec small gangs are 5-10 people maximum, often less than five actually. On that scale there is NO counter whatsoever other than lugging your own around.
You don't have the slots and even if you did the low base sensors on most common low-sec ships is too low for it to matter.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.24 10:03:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
Originally by: Suitonia


Except that it is a midslot from your entire gang. And it's not like you're now immune to jamming. An ECCM doubles your chance of not getting jammed (for everything below 14 sensor strength, it's less than that), which on average, means a falcon goes from jamming 3-4 of your ships, to 1-2. Thats still a significant presence. It's not an acceptable trade off in several small gang scenarios, which is why countering ECM is most often best done by using your own Falcon, ship for ship, module for module and counting gang utility, Falcon is the best counter to ECM, in any given small gang scenario.

You don't need to fit every ship with an ECCM module or two. Fit one ship for the role. Do I really have to explain this to you?


You quoted me having said that I would just use an anti-ecm Falcon instead of fitting eccm on my whole gang (your previous argument was, "just fit an eccm, it's only 1 slot") and then copy my point and argue the same point. Incredible.




Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
Originally by: Suitonia


No it doesn't. If ECM was removed there would be less black and white fights where one side completely wins with 1-2 losses at best, and the otherside loses everything. by removing ECM there is more of a chance of say, a 6 man gang taking on a 12 man gang and still inflicting damage.



I would think ECM gives the smaller side a fighting chance. Not CCP's fault that you're not utilizing the "most powerful ewar in game". don't make everyone else pay for your shortsightedness.


Yeah, if the other side doesn't have ECM, more than likely they do, the bigger gang also has more counter measures to ECM (they have more ships, so can free up mids for eccm, and can usually use bigger ships, and can more easily afford to have a dedicated anti-ecm ship without losing too much utility and effectiveness from their gang).


Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
Originally by: Suitonia


It also is no longer a get out of jail free card, and since it mostly supresses small gangs. There are plenty of ways for a small gang to inflict losses on a larger gang, using guerilla tactics, speed and mobility and taking advantage of bad positioning, and ganking stragglers from the larger force. ECM is usually not used in small gangs anyway because it provides little utility and ability when it comes to guerilla warfare. Most of the time you need speed and damage to be able to kill someone out of position and then leave, ECM doesn't provide this.


For that one specific role, no ECM doesn't help you. Hey wait neither does tracking disruptors. Better remove those.


Back to Straw-Man arguments are we. The point I was responding too is that "ECM helps small gangs take on bigger gangs" in reality, it doesn't, thats the point I made. Of course, Tracking Disruptors do not help you in the same scenario, however, if the enemy is packed with tracking Disruptors, It's not like you can't do anything though, you can still use missiles, activate electronic warfare, remote repair your friends, tackle something, assign drones, and the effect can be mitigated by lowering traversal, or moving closer, or using modules like target painters, webs etc. to mitigate the effect. I really don't know why you posted that, probably because your argument is flawed.

Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
Originally by: Suitonia


Looks like you've gone back to straw-man arguments.




Looks like you've got no way to counter that argument. Slippery slope is a slippery slope. If CCP nerfs everything that is percieved to be overpowered by a small group of players, what won't they nerf?


hahahahahahahahahaha. You are accusing me of "avoiding arguments" while you have posted at least 6-7 straw-man arguments? Ironically, that statement is followed by yet another straw-man argument, You're definately a troll or delusional.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.24 11:04:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Luminos
Perhaps my grasp of the english language is leaking out through the pores in my ass, but this is what I've been reading.

Buzz: ECM helps small gangs
Suitonia: No it doesn't
Grimpak: ECM helps small gangs if you 'prepare accordingly'
Luminos: lolwut?
Grimpak: ECM doesn't help small gangs
Luminos: ....

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Grimpak
they countered you, the agressor, with a gang made specifically to counter both the force multiplier of your ECM and loss minimization from their side.

How is bringing ECM a specific counter?


ECM helps small gangs when going against marginally bigger gangs.

ECM doesn't help small gangs when you find a gang that is prepared against it (IE, ECCM, more numbers than your ECM ships can handle or their own ECM or long range ships) and you lack ways to counter their ECM (same ECCM, long range missile ships to name a few counters), which brings us back to my statement about why are you engaging when you're tactically and numerically inferior.

you did not had scouts? didn't you bail out when you saw the local spike or when your gangmates started to report an increase in jams? Or did you thought that going "hero for E-HONO(U)R!" is going to win a battle where you lack numerical and/or tactical arguments to achieve victory?

as I said, this thread it's like you people are whining about losing your virginity when you **** a hooker.

Pod Amarr
Posted - 2010.12.24 11:54:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: LordInvisible
Quote:

You have obviously never flown an ewar boat or been on the receiving end of a disruptor or damp. Those modules have a 100% chance to mess up your day, and don't need bonused ships to work well. ECM on the other hand, is chanced based- and you need all the ECM skills at a minimum of three to be able to get a good chance of jamming with only one mod ( many times it takes two ecms to jam one target- if you're unlucky you can miss with your whole rack. This is not to mention that ECM only works well on a half dozen ships...


Since we are talking here about small gang pvppp, most of the fights are close ranged with rare vagas catching BSs in belt and kiting at 25km with faction disruptors.. So..close range means, that damps are useless, since u dont need locking range past 20km (unbonused ship needs at least 3 damps on a BS to achieve below 20km locking range) and u only need to lock once if there is no ecm present.. disruptor work the same: pointless tracking disruption at range since there is less problems with hitting it unless ua re in small target, but then, if u can lock, u have drones for that. If u are ecmed, u cannot use drones at all.. Range disruption is same *******s: u are close ranged.. unless u are using blasters to hit targets at 10km+ u are fine..
And falcon gets pretty good chances of jamming few targets, and since we are talking about small gang pvppp, falcon is gonna jam everything at least once, leaving primary, that is melting alone to keep aggression.

Quote:

It does give you bonus of being harder to scan down that is something all you folks forget to say when you whine. If you think that is not a tactical advantage then I do not how what is.


LoL..one ECCM extends probing time for max 15secs. And since we are talking about actual fighting, where u want to be probed out and want to have enemies near, not your ****ty pus.sy tactic of running away and hiding on SS..

Quote:

- ECM is the only chance based EWAR
- ECM is the only EWAR where you need other modules to boost it to a useful level (curse, arazu, pilgrim still get the range without filling lowslots and rigs)
- ECM is the only EWAR where you need a specialised ship pretty much maxed out to be effective.
- ECM is the only EWAR where you need all the skills maxed out to be effective.


- Chances on falcon are high enough not to be called chance as per se.. I have falcon alt (which i rarely use, since its ****ty tactic..) and i have managed to get successful jams in 90% of cases..his chance rate is higher then with for example tracking disruptors: one fourth of pvp ships are for example missile boats where your disruptor helps s.hit.
- We are still taking here about small gang pvp.. close range encounters. u dont need dampers in that case. and trcking disruptors rarely count on a webbed and scramed opponent.
- Same as damps..
- Same as damps and TDs. And even not that. A BB with mediocre skills can pretty much eliminated one or two ships out of combat, while, if u are not nano***, one celestis cannot eliminated any DPS..



I just don't know what to say :D

If someone is saying the tracking disruption is useless in close range he looses all the credibility right there.

Dampers wtf you talking about the gallente recons can tackle you from 40 km and then damp you to 20 how the hell you are going to shoot back at the tackler even a falcon cant jam it and break tackle in this situation.
Rolling Eyes

Combination of recons and hacs allows you to actually fight and tackle from 40 km + no need right in there if you think.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.12.24 12:09:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: LordInvisible
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: LordInvisible


your point is? Falcon is ussualy 70km away. since we are talking about small gang pvp here, u expect us to fit half of our guns with artilery? Well, even that doesnt help if u are jammed, right?


I expect you to construct a balanced gang. That's one capable of engaging a variety of targets at a variety of ranges. Not a one-dimensional, tactically inept monoculture that can't engage outside its comfort zone and just starts blubbing instead.

A single Cerberus in your gang will drive off any ECM boat. A bog-standard HML Drake can do the same, although obviously some degree of ECCM will help. As will an arty Hurricane. Hell, a Caracal works. Sufficient RSDs too. And these aren't one-dimensional counters only useful against ECM boats, they also work against similarly range-tanking logistics and other ewar platforms, such as quad-TD HML Drakes and Caracals, and are still capable of applying good DPS to the primary.




Like somebody said: we are not talking here about large fleets that can afford to have ships for long range.. We are talking here SMALL gang situation, where nobody brings cerbs/caracals or drakes. Arty hurricane in small gang?


You're tactically inept, then. In a five man gang there's plenty of room for any one of those ships. If you choose not to fulfil the anti-support role, more fool you and your homogeneous gang.

Quote:
And even if i get a cerb pilot into fleet of 6, what prevents falcon to jam said cerb? FOFs?


Range.

It cannot be emphasised that all the whines about not being able to hit an ECM boat can also be applied to logistics boats, as they operate at pretty much the same range. They're also likely to have pretty much exactly the same effect on a typical small-gang engagement. If you choose to not have the ability to deal with either class of ship, then, well, I hope you're insured.

MegabitOne
Caldari
The Black Ops
Posted - 2010.12.24 12:26:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: saango0
Everyone agrees it's the most powerful (by far) ewar in the game, and it's been ruining small gang PvP for years. It's the only ewar that renders a ship completely useless.

If you're flying in a small gang, fitting eccm won't help, ignoring the fact that it cripples most fits as it provides no other benefit than countering ECCM. Modules like sensor boosters and tracking computers give a nice bonus even if you don't see that type of ewar, but if you don't encounter ecm when having eccm fitted then you've effectively wasted a slot.

Also, please don't say it's a force multiplier for small gangs to counter blobs, the blobs simply field more ecm than you and you're screwed anyway. I think the game would be much better if ECM in all forms was removed and Caldari just got a different type of ewar. ECM completely nullifies any chances a small gang has at fighting outnumbered.

What do you all think?

I think I'll pwn you! With ANY kind of ewar: jammers, dampners, disruptors or painters, got whole electronics section to V :lol:

Really:
- if you don't scout before engaging in a fight: fail
- if your FC lets you fight regardless: dumb
- if you don't foresee that ewar could be used: fail
- if you don't fit for the-effect-you-so-much-fear: dumb
- if you don't know when to play and when to fold: hmmm, you got it by now, no?

Counters:
- do any of the above
- fit eccm
- fit ecm bursts (I agree: these need some buff)
- fit sensor backup arrays
- fly away
- warp off
- call in the cavalry
- wait: no one ever died from being jammed/tracking disrupted/target painted/sensor dampened.


And your quote about jamming 2 to 3 ships 80% of the time: maybe true, but that means that only 80% * 80% * 80% or 51.2% of the time I would jam all three of them, the rest of the time they would be shooting me! Go sit in one of those glass-boats and see if you have the guts to stand and fight against those odds with only an honour tank as your defence....

saango0
Posted - 2010.12.24 13:07:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
Originally by: saango0
Everyone agrees it's the most powerful (by far) ewar in the game, and it's been ruining small gang PvP for years. It's the only ewar that renders a ship completely useless.


False and false. Everyone doesn't agree.
Sensor Dampeners render range ships completely useless. When facing a sniping small gang, fit a few of these.
Webifiers render speed ships useless.
Warp Disruptors render a warp drive useless.

Originally by: saango0

If you're flying in a small gang, fitting eccm won't help, ignoring the fact that it cripples most fits as it provides no other benefit than countering ECCM. Modules like sensor boosters and tracking computers give a nice bonus even if you don't see that type of ewar, but if you don't encounter ecm when having eccm fitted then you've effectively wasted a slot.

You've wasted a slot, but if they bring an ECM boat, they've wasted a ship. Their 90 mil falcon or rook is alot more than your 1 mil ECCM mod. That's a pretty fair tradeoff, I wouldn't be complaining too much about that.

Originally by: saango0

Also, please don't say it's a force multiplier for small gangs to counter blobs, the blobs simply field more ecm than you and you're screwed anyway. I think the game would be much better if ECM in all forms was removed and Caldari just got a different type of ewar. ECM completely nullifies any chances a small gang has at fighting outnumbered.

You remove ECM, and the blob wins anyways. If the blob didn't field any ECM, the small gang that shouldn't survive, might have a chance, granted the blob doesn't have a sniper ship of ANY kind, or a fast ship with drones assigned to get to the ECM ship.

Originally by: saango0

What do you all think?

If I answered this, I would be banned from the forums.

If you didn't have ECM, you would have Remote Repping gangs dominating, and then you'd be on here complaining about how RR gangs are ruining the game, so then they'd get rid of RRing. Well then everyone would just fit for max DPS, and then you'd be on here complaining about how overpowered turrets are, so then they'd nerf turrets. Well then missiles would own the night sky, ut oh, better nerf those. Hmm, well now everyone seems to be able to tank forever, so nerfed is the shield/armour/structure tanker. Let's just nerf everything foreeeeevvvvvveeeeeerrrrrrrr. nnnneeeeeerrrrrrffffffff yyyyyaaaaaayyyyyyyy


Does anyone feel completely hopeless when an arazu decloaks because it might have damps fitted? It lowers your lock range but you can still burn to him and attack him.

I don't think points and webs are really considered ewar in the same sense as damps/ecm/tp/td. Please stop with troll responses lol, those are necessary for PvP to even occur. Also I don't see the point of your argument, my point was ecm renders ANY type of ship completely useless in a way no other ewar can.

About the ECCM, you will still be jammed with one eccm and anything more than that simply won't work on most sub-bs boats (excluding ishtar I guess).

Your argument that ecm removal would make certain ships overpowered holds no weight, I've been in fought outnumbered plenty of times when ECM wasn't involved and found nothing to be imbalanced. Large RR gangs aren't really countered by ecm anyway, the rest of that paragraph was incoherent and proves how little experience you actually have.

ECM, or any of the other ewar, isn't nearly as devastating in larger fights, I was mainly talking about small gangs (which to me is usually <5). Ofc the blob will win if you try to fight the blob head on, small gangs use mobility and range to fight blobs. This has been explained multiple times in this thread by people who probably know a little more about pvp than you and me ;), I'm not sure why people keep bringing this up. Again, I'm mostly talking about gangs of <10 where you can't really sacrifice dps and tackle for a dedicated ECM killer or your own to counter.


Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2010.12.24 13:22:00 - [128]
 

I dont like ecm, especially being target of it. Especially i dont like ecm drones.

But...
...if any other ewar is properly applied is exactly as deadly as ecm, maybe even more
...if ecm got nerfed, there would be really too few pvp ships in caldari lineup worth flying /only hookbill, drake and tengu for me/ and i havent seen any idea that doesnt count with massive nerf so far
...most people are completely forgetting other balance issues it would bring /for example breaking rr chains/

Btw to all people writing here how bad rapier or arazu are : sorry, but you are really really stupid. I suggest you go out with some good pvpers and you will see some things you probably never even imagined.

saango0
Posted - 2010.12.24 13:31:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 23/12/2010 22:37:42
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
I would think ECM gives the smaller side a fighting chance.

And Suitonia JUST EXPLAINED WHY THIS ISN'T TRUE, you blistering moron.

Honestly, I could go through everything you said and pick out why it's wrong, but you wouldn't listen. Go back to your ECM blob, you ****ing moron.
it's only false if you didn't prepare accordingly.

I mean, a small gang should never have the chance to win if they don't have numerical advantage and tactical advantage. If you have tactical advantage but no numerical advantage, then you should be able to win a fight against somewhat numerically superior forces that have worse tactical deployment.


but no, let's just bring dps ships, screw our own ewar or tactics or whatever, we're small numbers so we should beat bigger ships that are in bigger numbers and better tactics!


You're saying a small gang SHOULD never win, I'm saying small gangs have a chance if there was no ecm, also if you're jumping into a system to fight a gang that was just scouted, how could the scout see the cloaked falcons??

Bringing ecm is tactically smart for the blob but then again you can't really go wrong outnumbering them 3:1. Yes it is smart for the blob to bring ecm but that doesn't mean they "prepared" for your gang, ecm is great against everything, ofc they will be included in blobs as all other bases such as tackle/dps/scouts have already been covered.

ECM will always hurt small gangs more than blobs as a small gang simply can't sacrifice a ship just to counter the opposing ecm. In the "rock, paper, scissors" argument, ecm is the shotgun ;).

Mart Allini
Posted - 2010.12.24 13:44:00 - [130]
 

One argument that has been brought up is that on sub-bc hulls, the base sensor strength is so low that ECCM is basically useless as its percentage based. This to me seems like a very valid point. Maybe what would be useful is the ECCM equivalent of the micro auxilliary power core that gives a flat increase to sensor strength for smaller ships(maybe a rig that only comes in small/medium form so as to not over-buff marauders)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.24 13:45:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: saango0
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 23/12/2010 22:37:42
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Buzz Killingdon
I would think ECM gives the smaller side a fighting chance.

And Suitonia JUST EXPLAINED WHY THIS ISN'T TRUE, you blistering moron.

Honestly, I could go through everything you said and pick out why it's wrong, but you wouldn't listen. Go back to your ECM blob, you ****ing moron.
it's only false if you didn't prepare accordingly.

I mean, a small gang should never have the chance to win if they don't have numerical advantage and tactical advantage. If you have tactical advantage but no numerical advantage, then you should be able to win a fight against somewhat numerically superior forces that have worse tactical deployment.


but no, let's just bring dps ships, screw our own ewar or tactics or whatever, we're small numbers so we should beat bigger ships that are in bigger numbers and better tactics!


You're saying a small gang SHOULD never win, I'm saying small gangs have a chance if there was no ecm, also if you're jumping into a system to fight a gang that was just scouted, how could the scout see the cloaked falcons??

Bringing ecm is tactically smart for the blob but then again you can't really go wrong outnumbering them 3:1. Yes it is smart for the blob to bring ecm but that doesn't mean they "prepared" for your gang, ecm is great against everything, ofc they will be included in blobs as all other bases such as tackle/dps/scouts have already been covered.

ECM will always hurt small gangs more than blobs as a small gang simply can't sacrifice a ship just to counter the opposing ecm. In the "rock, paper, scissors" argument, ecm is the shotgun ;).
why should a small, less prepared gang win vs a force that is quantitatively, qualitatively and tactically superior, specially if this is pretty much an escalation of power where your gang is countered?

you attacked an area with a small gang looking for cheap ganks. A response gang that is tailored to stop you dead on your tracks is formed, chases you out/kills your gang and you complain about what many people could call of "fairness in the battlefield"?

well you and your 4 buddies brought knifes, got into a fight and then these 40 cops showed up with shotguns. Surely this is totally unfair, since in no way you can win a 40-man strong gunfight with only 5 knifes, and you demand the cops to fight you fair and square with knifes themselves.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.24 14:30:00 - [132]
 

No-one is saying "5 guys should win against 40 guys". People are saying "no, actually, ECM doesn't help small gangs take on big gangs effectively", as a counter-point to "well it's ok for ECM to be overpowered because you can take on gangs who don't use ECM that are bigger than you". Since people seem to be arguing that it's ok for ECM to be overpowered because it's the only thing which enables small gangs to take on bigger gangs, which is false.

ECM hurts small gangs a lot and is probably the biggest contributing factor to the detriment of small gang PvP. To go over what has been debated.

- Smaller gangs have less ability to be able to afford ECCM, as they need midslots for tackle modules.
- Smaller gangs have much less utility when it comes to being able to have a desinated anti-ECM ship, due to a limited number of ship hulls, need to be able to tackle, and mobility.
- Smaller gangs fly smaller hulls for increased mobility, to be able to evade bigger gangs. This means that the percentage based ECCM is much less effective, and smaller hulls have less slots.

Is ECM balanced in the big picture when considering all sizes of ships, and a sizable fleet, yes.
Is ECM balanced when we are talking about small gangs which are below the 10 man size? Not at all.

The problem is that until you get sizable gangs where people can afford to bring a couple of ECCM fit HACs to be able to specifically focus electronic warfare, The Falcon/Rook is the best counter to ECM. Which leads to a similar problem which was found during the old nanoship debate. When the best counter to something is itself, it's probably broken.

The other issue is that ECM is a very unfun mechanic. To be balanced, Caldari ECM ships are very vulnerable, they have very little DPS, utility and hit points. This makes them unfun to fly since they are useless outside a specific scenario, and when that scenario is prevented, they are useless, just like their victims.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:20:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 24/12/2010 15:25:30
Originally by: Suitonia
No-one is saying "5 guys should win against 40 guys". People are saying "no, actually, ECM doesn't help small gangs take on big gangs effectively", as a counter-point to "well it's ok for ECM to be overpowered because you can take on gangs who don't use ECM that are bigger than you". Since people seem to be arguing that it's ok for ECM to be overpowered because it's the only thing which enables small gangs to take on bigger gangs, which is false.

ECM hurts small gangs a lot and is probably the biggest contributing factor to the detriment of small gang PvP. To go over what has been debated.

- Smaller gangs have less ability to be able to afford ECCM, as they need midslots for tackle modules.
- Smaller gangs have much less utility when it comes to being able to have a desinated anti-ECM ship, due to a limited number of ship hulls, need to be able to tackle, and mobility.
- Smaller gangs fly smaller hulls for increased mobility, to be able to evade bigger gangs. This means that the percentage based ECCM is much less effective, and smaller hulls have less slots.

Is ECM balanced in the big picture when considering all sizes of ships, and a sizable fleet, yes.
Is ECM balanced when we are talking about small gangs which are below the 10 man size? Not at all.

The problem is that until you get sizable gangs where people can afford to bring a couple of ECCM fit HACs to be able to specifically focus electronic warfare, The Falcon/Rook is the best counter to ECM. Which leads to a similar problem which was found during the old nanoship debate. When the best counter to something is itself, it's probably broken.

The other issue is that ECM is a very unfun mechanic. To be balanced, Caldari ECM ships are very vulnerable, they have very little DPS, utility and hit points. This makes them unfun to fly since they are useless outside a specific scenario, and when that scenario is prevented, they are useless, just like their victims.

people ARE saying that. they are saying that a gang that outnumbers them and outsmarts them will win in the end of the day and that it's totally unfair.
You were presented a couple of counters to do that, even considering the micro size of said gangs you presented, and they are actually not very hard to acquire ingame tools (that can double as ECM counter along with simple dps).

but in the end of day, people fail to realize ECM kills small gangs as much logistics and simple numbers do (and bad FC'ing and scouts).

removing ECM from the game would mean that nothing would stop logistics.
and if you remove logistics, to counter this nerf people would bring even bigger numbers.


"ECM is killing small gangs" whine is in the same wavelength as the "hotdrops is killing small gangs" whine a couple of years ago and it will be in the same wavelength as "logistics are killing small gangs" whine that will undoubtedly appear in a couple of months/years in the future.

so yeah, what you people are miffed about it is blobs. ECM is just a pretext.

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:26:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
Is ECM balanced in the big picture when considering all sizes of ships, and a sizable fleet, yes.
Which would be why CCP felt the need to make super-caps immune to it, right?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:30:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
"ECM is killing small gangs" whine is in the same wavelength as the "hotdrops is killing small gangs" whine a couple of years ago and it will be in the same wavelength as "logistics are killing small gangs" whine that will undoubtedly appear in a couple of months/years in the future.

Minigin already wants Logistics nerfed.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:31:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Kai Yuen
Yawn, nothing original here. Even your little insult calling everyone "apologists". I'm not apologizing for anything. I like ECM the way it is. I was only kidding before, but you really ARE trying to make anti-Caldari online since now you're attacking ECM. Thankfully, the odds of CCP ever nerfing it are next to 0, so I'm not concerned in the least bit.
Of course you like ECM, why wouldn't you, being Amarr, I mean Caldari. You are trying to preserve Caldari Online. See what I did there.Wink Although I will agree with you that CCP will not nerf ECM, they've tried twice and appear constitutionally incapable of doing it right. As I said the best we can hope for now is some buff the ECCM and maybe some new skills to lessen the effectiveness of ECM on one's ship. Besides, unlike the OP, I don't want ECM removed from the game. I have two Falcon alts anyway (although one is also an Arazu alt, but why bother), and ECM is a good mechanic for the game as a counter for RR-ing to have to guard against.

Originally by: Kai Yuen
And damps stay on as long as you keep them on, unlike ECM which has a reroll on every cycle.
As long as you are within the shorter optimal.Wink Anyway, one damp is not going to disable you like one ecm jammer can. And if that damping ship is devoting multiple damps on you then well he's not taking our 2 or 3 of gang mates at the same time is he, unlike an ecm boat.

Originally by: Kai Yuen
LOL.
Ok, you're laughing with me at defenders?Neutral

Originally by: Kai Yuen
Uhm... LOL!
And, you agree that neuts are not as powerful as ecm.

Originally by: Kai Yuen
Oh please, your attempt to pre-empt arguments is just sad. All recons have garbage for tanks and all recons are perfectly viable ships. There's no recon that isn't worth flying.
And, therefore you agree that pro-ecm arguments based on the tank of an ecm boat are bunk. Thanks.

Originally by: Kai Yuen
Yawn. Those "nerfs" were only aimed at the falcon, which was indeed OP at the time. Now it's not.
It is not op now for fleet battles. It is still op for small gangs which is what Suitonia and others appear to be focused on. But again, I agree with you that the chance of CCP nerfing ECM at this stage is zero. They are incapable of radically revisioning it or how it works. And they don't recognize the problem they created when they made it so powerful and then focussed all the bonuses of the Caldari e-war on it. That extreme specialization invariably leads to extreme fits to maximize the effect. And the effect being what it is it will be devastating to small engagements.

So, the only utility I see to a thread like this is that if some devs are reading they think about bufing eccm, introducing a sensor integrity skill, and/or they think about introduing some backup targeting skill for when your ships electronics are ecm'd and can't do the targeting they normally would. In my experience CCP is very resistent to removing things from the game. They are much more open to adjusting existing stats or introducing new things. So these suggestions have more chance of success. Sorry OP.

saango0
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:39:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Suitonia
No-one is saying "5 guys should win against 40 guys". People are saying "no, actually, ECM doesn't help small gangs take on big gangs effectively", as a counter-point to "well it's ok for ECM to be overpowered because you can take on gangs who don't use ECM that are bigger than you". Since people seem to be arguing that it's ok for ECM to be overpowered because it's the only thing which enables small gangs to take on bigger gangs, which is false.

ECM hurts small gangs a lot and is probably the biggest contributing factor to the detriment of small gang PvP. To go over what has been debated.

- Smaller gangs have less ability to be able to afford ECCM, as they need midslots for tackle modules.
- Smaller gangs have much less utility when it comes to being able to have a desinated anti-ECM ship, due to a limited number of ship hulls, need to be able to tackle, and mobility.
- Smaller gangs fly smaller hulls for increased mobility, to be able to evade bigger gangs. This means that the percentage based ECCM is much less effective, and smaller hulls have less slots.

Is ECM balanced in the big picture when considering all sizes of ships, and a sizable fleet, yes.
Is ECM balanced when we are talking about small gangs which are below the 10 man size? Not at all.

The problem is that until you get sizable gangs where people can afford to bring a couple of ECCM fit HACs to be able to specifically focus electronic warfare, The Falcon/Rook is the best counter to ECM. Which leads to a similar problem which was found during the old nanoship debate. When the best counter to something is itself, it's probably broken.

The other issue is that ECM is a very unfun mechanic. To be balanced, Caldari ECM ships are very vulnerable, they have very little DPS, utility and hit points. This makes them unfun to fly since they are useless outside a specific scenario, and when that scenario is prevented, they are useless, just like their victims.

people ARE saying that. they are saying that a gang that outnumbers them and outsmarts them will win in the end of the day and that it's totally unfair.
You were presented a couple of counters to do that, even considering the micro size of said gangs you presented, and they are actually not very hard to acquire ingame tools.

but in the end of day, people fail to realize ECM kills small gangs as much logistics and simple numbers do.

removing ECM from the game would mean that nothing would stop logistics.
and if you remove logistics, to counter this then people would bring even bigger numbers.


"ECM is killing small gangs" whine is in the same wavelength as the "hotdrops is killing small gangs" whine a couple of years ago and it will be in the same wavelength as "logistics are killing small gangs" whine that will undoubtedly appear in a couple of months/years in the future.


How is bringing ECM to counter a much smaller gang "outsmarting" your opponent? It would work against any small gang you wouldn't have even had to scout them and it would still work. Like you said, there are many other things that kill small gangs and that's fine, one would obviously expect the side with greater numbers to have the advantage.

No one is complaining about logi, hotdrops, blobbing itself or any other ewar. The only problem is the execution of ecm itself in how devastating the effect is, the simple idea that there's a mechanic that can stop you from doing anything but soak damage just seems silly and kills the fun of the game. IMO making the cycle time 5 or 10 seconds and maintaining locks while not being able to damage them would balance it out alot.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.24 15:44:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: saango0
How is bringing ECM to counter a much smaller gang "outsmarting" your opponent?
They were dumb enough to engage a larger gang that had enough ECM to lock out all of their ships, weren't they? Sounds like "outsmarted" to me… or well… more like the opponent "outdumbed" itself, but the effect is much the same.
Quote:
No one is complaining about logi, hotdrops, blobbing itself or any other ewar.
…riiiight…

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2010.12.24 16:01:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Megan Maynard on 24/12/2010 16:01:35
I just hate the chance based crap.

If you have a higher sensor strength it should take equal or more jamming strength to jam a ship.

Simple, clean, to the point.

Modify the modules to make it reasonable and stop this stupid chance based crap.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.24 16:04:00 - [140]
 

People just need to bring their own ECM. I don't see a problem here. It's not like ECM is not available to everyone who plays the game.

It also kind of fits with the roles.

Caldari are meant to work in gangs.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.12.24 16:27:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
ECM doesn't help small gangs when you find a gang that is prepared against it (IE, ECCM, more numbers than your ECM ships can handle or their own ECM or long range ships) and you lack ways to counter their ECM (same ECCM, long range missile ships to name a few counters), which brings us back to my statement about why are you engaging when you're tactically and numerically inferior.

This is exactly my point though. How is a larger gang with ECM set up to 'specifically counter a small gang's ECM?' The counter to ECM to ECCM. A gang set up to counter ECM should be set up with a bunch of ECCM. That's a specific counter. Obviously one that is either still too weak, or ECM is just still too good.

Why do we have tracking disruptors and damps anyway when ECM does both of their jobs at the same time better than they do?

Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
Posted - 2010.12.24 16:52:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Hauling Hal on 24/12/2010 16:58:50
Edited by: Hauling Hal on 24/12/2010 16:53:03
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Why do we have tracking disruptors and damps anyway when ECM does both of their jobs at the same time better than they do?


Run by me again how a 100% success for tracking disruptors is the same as ECM? "I just damped the 5 sniping BS" vs "Ive just jammed 2 of th.." *POOF*

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.12.24 17:23:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Hauling Hal

Run by me again how a 100% success for tracking disruptors is the same as ECM? "I just damped the 5 sniping BS" vs "Ive just jammed 2 of th.." *POOF*

If you have level 5 skills, you only get a 100% success rate under 72km... And only against turrets. ECM works against anything that requires a target, and functions just as easily at that range.

reduce turret optimal/falloff/tracking speed?

OR

prevent guns and missiles from firing, prevent RR, prevent painting, webbing, scramming, counter-ewar etc?

I didn't think it was all that complicated to figure out which was better

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.24 17:49:00 - [144]
 

By the way, isn't this a Feature and/or Idea?
Also, there seems to be alot of insults in here that should be removed.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2010.12.24 18:11:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 24/12/2010 18:13:25
Originally by: Hauling Hal
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Why do we have tracking disruptors and damps anyway when ECM does both of their jobs at the same time better than they do?


Run by me again how a 100% success for tracking disruptors is the same as ECM? "I just damped the 5 sniping BS" vs "Ive just jammed 2 of th.." *POOF*

Cute that whoever you are you posted this with your Gallente hauling alt Hauling Hal who btw appears to have no experience with damps or damping ships. Reslly getting tired of poeple saying "but the other ships are just as good or better see what i can do with them that for some reason noone else in game has decided to do . . ." But what the hell I'll respond anyway to your facetious example because my main on another account can fly bot the Falcon and the Arazu.

Ok well overlooking the fact that most people fly gallente recons for the long distance pointing, even with long distance jamming 5 and two particle dispersion projector rigs your phased muon damps are only gonna have an optimal of 63km. So presumably fitting 5 of those with a mwd Confused you decided to get within 63km of some sniper BSs and lay one damp on each. Those sniper BSs are all fitting sensor boosters with lock range scripts, and they can probably lock out to 150km at least each. So your one damp on each has effectively reduced their lock range roughly half to 75km. Oh wait that puts my arazu still within range of their locking. *POOF* right back at ya Laughing

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.24 18:20:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Grimpak
ECM doesn't help small gangs when you find a gang that is prepared against it (IE, ECCM, more numbers than your ECM ships can handle or their own ECM or long range ships) and you lack ways to counter their ECM (same ECCM, long range missile ships to name a few counters), which brings us back to my statement about why are you engaging when you're tactically and numerically inferior.

This is exactly my point though. How is a larger gang with ECM set up to 'specifically counter a small gang's ECM?' The counter to ECM to ECCM. A gang set up to counter ECM should be set up with a bunch of ECCM. That's a specific counter. Obviously one that is either still too weak, or ECM is just still too good.

Why do we have tracking disruptors and damps anyway when ECM does both of their jobs at the same time better than they do?


the reason why bigger gangs with ECM counter small gangs with ECM is simply to cut losses.
you entered their space and went on feasting on their unsuspecting ratters. what did you expect the response to be? 20 steps at the sound of noon in main street?

if any, the power of ECM says to me that it is the other ewar that needs a fix, not ECM that needs (yet another) axe.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.24 18:35:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen

This is exactly my point though. How is a larger gang with ECM set up to 'specifically counter a small gang's ECM?' The counter to ECM to ECCM. A gang set up to counter ECM should be set up with a bunch of ECCM. That's a specific counter. Obviously one that is either still too weak, or ECM is just still too good.

Why do we have tracking disruptors and damps anyway when ECM does both of their jobs at the same time better than they do?


the reason why bigger gangs with ECM counter small gangs with ECM is simply to cut losses.
you entered their space and went on feasting on their unsuspecting ratters. what did you expect the response to be? 20 steps at the sound of noon in main street?

if any, the power of ECM says to me that it is the other ewar that needs a fix, not ECM that needs (yet another) axe.


Thats precisely the problem. ECM prevents any engagement happening at all, as mentioned. The hostile gang will now incure absolutely no losses with ECM (unless they are bad), which means, the small gang decides to not engage at all. ECM creates a lot of situations where engagements that would have taken place, don't happen entirely.

Also, I don't know why you are still trolling with the whole "you want to gank ratters and they're defending their space" thing.

This can happen with logistics too, obviously, but logistics only makes the enemy fleet not take losses, as opposed to ECM which does that, and prevents remote RR, Tackle, Counter Ewar, Neuts, DPS etc.

And as mentioned, ECM is the best counter to ECM, that is a problem.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.24 18:39:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
People just need to bring their own ECM. I don't see a problem here. It's not like ECM is not available to everyone who plays the game.

It also kind of fits with the roles.

Caldari are meant to work in gangs.


That IS the problem. Bringing ECM to counter ECM is flawed (Especially when there is a direct counter, ECCM, which is dropped in favour of your own ECM because it is simply more effective). It is a scenario similar to the nanoage where people could "bring rapiers, scimitars to rep the rapiers, and then pulse apocs", or they could simply bring their own nanoships, which was more effective.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.24 18:49:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 24/12/2010 18:49:39
Originally by: Suitonia
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen

This is exactly my point though. How is a larger gang with ECM set up to 'specifically counter a small gang's ECM?' The counter to ECM to ECCM. A gang set up to counter ECM should be set up with a bunch of ECCM. That's a specific counter. Obviously one that is either still too weak, or ECM is just still too good.

Why do we have tracking disruptors and damps anyway when ECM does both of their jobs at the same time better than they do?


the reason why bigger gangs with ECM counter small gangs with ECM is simply to cut losses.
you entered their space and went on feasting on their unsuspecting ratters. what did you expect the response to be? 20 steps at the sound of noon in main street?

if any, the power of ECM says to me that it is the other ewar that needs a fix, not ECM that needs (yet another) axe.


Thats precisely the problem. ECM prevents any engagement happening at all, as mentioned. The hostile gang will now incure absolutely no losses with ECM (unless they are bad), which means, the small gang decides to not engage at all. ECM creates a lot of situations where engagements that would have taken place, don't happen entirely.

Also, I don't know why you are still trolling with the whole "you want to gank ratters and they're defending their space" thing.

This can happen with logistics too, obviously, but logistics only makes the enemy fleet not take losses, as opposed to ECM which does that, and prevents remote RR, Tackle, Counter Ewar, Neuts, DPS etc.

And as mentioned, ECM is the best counter to ECM, that is a problem.


thus boosting the other ewar. ECM is just that common because damp ships aren't that effective, TD ships are restricted to a single weapon type and painters aren't really that agressive.

and no, not trolling, just an example from experience from both sides of the fence. You don't want fairness in war. you want the other side pay for their transgression and you don't want to give them more kills. why should I go out of my way to make it easier for the opponent?

hell to stop all this, let's say that ECCM gets somehow an increased effectiveness or some sort of chance-based passive degrading effect on the ship trying to jam you.
would that be enough?
ECM as it is is enough. doesn't need a fix, doesn't need a nerf, and most definitely doesn't need a boost. It serves the purpose of force multiplier well and nerfing it would open an even bigger can of worms (it would actually increase blobbing and kill small scale pvp for good) since people are already calling for a nerf to logis (lol).

oh and 5-man gangs are microgangs for all purposes. small-scale pvp goes to some 20-30 man gangs, thus makes me think that you people want really to complain about blobbing and not ECM.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.12.24 20:20:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: saango0

Only the range was nerfed to bring it in line with other ECM, strength was not changed for recons. It is chance based, yes, but it will still jam 2-3 ships 80% of the cycles.



Are you trying to attack rooks with t1 frigs or what? Cos i wish a rook could jam 3 ships for 80% of the time.


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