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Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.22 07:24:00 - [1]
 

I started out exploring in Caldari space, and the ISK has been pretty good. But Caldari space has always been crowded -everyone and their brother scans in it. So I decided to venture out into Amarr controlled territory, something that I haven't done for several months.

Well as far as competition goes Amarr space is great -very few people scanning there (mostly miners and mission runners from what I'm picking up on the D-scanner). But after a few days of roaming through several differed regions I'm starting to understand why Caldari space it so crowded -there's almost nothing in Amarr. It's very common to scan over a dozen systems to find a single anomaly, and if I'm lucky it won't be a gravimetric or magnometric.

Is Amarr space broken? How is exploration in Galentine and Minmitar space? I'm I just going to have to deal with the crowds and loot thieves in Caldari systems?

I'd really like to see a response from CCP on this one -do the code wizards know that Amarr space is almost empty?

Lord Grimmas
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2010.12.22 10:06:00 - [2]
 

I see what you did there, sir. Cool

Apart from whether you find anything or not, keep in mind that some of the really high-end deadspace items, such as, say, Gist X-Type XL Shield Boosters, are not bloody likely to show up in Amarr space...

Xentara Vispari
Posted - 2010.12.22 16:44:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Xentara Vispari on 22/12/2010 16:45:02
Maybe its just a matter of statistics:

Sector Systems
Caldari 326
Amarr 913
Minmatar 280
Gallente 388

Amarr has by far the most systems. Nobody besides CCP knows the exact rules how exploration sites are distributed across the EVE universe, but I would guess that there is a random distribution which insures that a certain percentage of systems will have an exploration site.

Maybe the rules to create exploration sites are a constant number for each region. Because Amarr has the most systems, this would result in a reduced density of exploration site.

Maybe the rules also include the amount of sites being done by players (or players being active in a region). This would also result in fewer exploration sites.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.12.22 17:40:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Xentara Vispari
Edited by: Xentara Vispari on 22/12/2010 16:45:02
Maybe its just a matter of statistics:

Sector Systems
Caldari 326
Amarr 913
Minmatar 280
Gallente 388

Amarr has by far the most systems. Nobody besides CCP knows the exact rules how exploration sites are distributed across the EVE universe, but I would guess that there is a random distribution which insures that a certain percentage of systems will have an exploration site.

Maybe the rules to create exploration sites are a constant number for each region. Because Amarr has the most systems, this would result in a reduced density of exploration site.

Maybe the rules also include the amount of sites being done by players (or players being active in a region). This would also result in fewer exploration sites.


Your calculation is wrong though, exploration sites are distributed not by empire sovereignty but by pirates that inhabit it. In case of Amarr there are 2 pirate factions - bloods ans sansha
There are plenty sites in amarr space as well but if you're looking for highsec sites they get pushed out to highsec islands in lowsec and there are a lot of those in amarr space. I've seen as much as 7-8 signatures in one system at the same time in those islands.

heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.12.22 18:14:00 - [5]
 

Exploration is not broken, amarr space is not empty, you must have been unlucky or beaten to the sites.

hermot
Amarr
Serco Group PLC
Posted - 2010.12.22 23:46:00 - [6]
 

Amarr space is totally broken you should probably head back to caldari space Very Happy

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.23 06:27:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dorn Val on 23/12/2010 06:28:23
Originally by: FlameGlow
...There are plenty sites in amarr space as well but if you're looking for highsec sites they get pushed out to highsec islands in lowsec and there are a lot of those in amarr space. I've seen as much as 7-8 signatures in one system at the same time in those islands.


I've seen the same phenomenon in Caldari space, but at the same time I can find at least one Radar / Guristas Scout Outpost in 5 systems just about anywhere, at any time of day in Caldari. Can't say the same for Amarr space though...

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.23 06:34:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: heheheh
Exploration is not broken, amarr space is not empty, you must have been unlucky or beaten to the sites.


Possible, as I did see a few more peeps exploring last night than I have all week. But then again I see a lot of explorers in Caldari space and yet still scan down more Radar and DED 3/10 and 4/10 sites.

I will say this: In Caldari systems if I find a Guristas Scout Outpost 1 in 12 will have a drop at the end -and sometimes it's a worthless tech 1 shield mod. But if I hit a Sansha Command Relay there is almost always a drop in the overseer's wreck and it's worth the effort. The hard part though is just finding the site.

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.23 06:39:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: hermot
Amarr space is totally broken you should probably head back to caldari space Very Happy


Didn't I see you out scanning last night Very Happy

Voith
Posted - 2010.12.23 22:10:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dorn Val
I started out exploring in Caldari space, and the ISK has been pretty good. But Caldari space has always been crowded -everyone and their brother scans in it. So I decided to venture out into Amarr controlled territory, something that I haven't done for several months.

Well as far as competition goes Amarr space is great -very few people scanning there (mostly miners and mission runners from what I'm picking up on the D-scanner). But after a few days of roaming through several differed regions I'm starting to understand why Caldari space it so crowded -there's almost nothing in Amarr. It's very common to scan over a dozen systems to find a single anomaly, and if I'm lucky it won't be a gravimetric or magnometric.

Is Amarr space broken? How is exploration in Galentine and Minmitar space? I'm I just going to have to deal with the crowds and loot thieves in Caldari systems?

I'd really like to see a response from CCP on this one -do the code wizards know that Amarr space is almost empty?

Amarr space is mainly explored by macroers running client side hacks to warp right to sites. The only decent areas are the hi-sec islands.

Lord Grimmas
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2010.12.24 01:20:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Voith
Amarr space is mainly explored by macroers running client side hacks to warp right to sites. The only decent areas are the hi-sec islands.


Sounds like a fairy tale. If there was such an exploit that allowed bypassing the scanning altogether, then it would be game breaking. I do not doubt that there are macro programs out there for exploration, but CCP is not stupid enough to allow such an obvious exploit. This is not 1999 anymore.

Voith
Posted - 2010.12.24 02:45:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lord Grimmas
Originally by: Voith
Amarr space is mainly explored by macroers running client side hacks to warp right to sites. The only decent areas are the hi-sec islands.


Sounds like a fairy tale. If there was such an exploit that allowed bypassing the scanning altogether, then it would be game breaking. I do not doubt that there are macro programs out there for exploration, but CCP is not stupid enough to allow such an obvious exploit. This is not 1999 anymore.


CCP can't detect (or doesn't care about) RMT bots that play 23/7 never leaving system for weeks at a time connecting from an IP that also has 10 other accounts doing the same thing.

Lord Grimmas
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2010.12.24 07:34:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Lord Grimmas on 24/12/2010 07:35:07
Originally by: Voith
CCP can't detect (or doesn't care about) RMT bots that play 23/7 never leaving system for weeks at a time connecting from an IP that also has 10 other accounts doing the same thing.


There is an ocean of a difference between CCP failing to combat RMT bots (which has been the case so far), most of which are probably mining, and an exploit existing in the game which allows bypassing the scanning interface and extract the signature data directly. The first is user automation, the second is a wall hack. Maybe I just misunderstood you and you mean that they are automating the scanning also?

MrSnooze
Posted - 2010.12.24 11:54:00 - [14]
 

I also think that exploration is broken. In Pure Blind I just find Radar, Ladar and Wormholes but no combat sides and this since 4 days. Same in Cloud Ring. I have two scanchars.

Voith
Posted - 2010.12.24 18:54:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Voith on 24/12/2010 18:53:58
Originally by: Lord Grimmas
Edited by: Lord Grimmas on 24/12/2010 07:35:07
Originally by: Voith
CCP can't detect (or doesn't care about) RMT bots that play 23/7 never leaving system for weeks at a time connecting from an IP that also has 10 other accounts doing the same thing.


There is an ocean of a difference between CCP failing to combat RMT bots (which has been the case so far), most of which are probably mining, and an exploit existing in the game which allows bypassing the scanning interface and extract the signature data directly. The first is user automation, the second is a wall hack. Maybe I just misunderstood you and you mean that they are automating the scanning also?


It is a question of effort.

How long do you think it would take to write a script that finds players on 23/7 rarely leaving the same system who do nothing but rat? Or IPs that have 5+ accounts connecting simultaneously?

As someone who has done some forensic work in databases the answer is less than 5 minutes.

They won't spend 5 minutes to stop bots. You really think they're monitoring exploration stuff? They haven't gave a **** about exploration since they revamped scanning.

It is always a matter of effort. CCP has demonstrated time and time again that they will not expend any effort on either exploration or stopping bots.

Calkota
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.26 07:28:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Calkota on 26/12/2010 07:28:31
Originally by: Voith
Edited by: Voith on 24/12/2010 18:53:58

It is a question of effort.

How long do you think it would take to write a script that finds players on 23/7 rarely leaving the same system who do nothing but rat? Or IPs that have 5+ accounts connecting simultaneously?

As someone who has done some forensic work in databases the answer is less than 5 minutes.

They won't spend 5 minutes to stop bots. You really think they're monitoring exploration stuff? They haven't gave a **** about exploration since they revamped scanning.

It is always a matter of effort. CCP has demonstrated time and time again that they will not expend any effort on either exploration or stopping bots.


If you run something as simple as that you will get a lot of legitimate players as well.

Your gross oversimplification shows your ignorance.

Voith
Posted - 2010.12.26 16:29:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Voith on 26/12/2010 16:29:56
Originally by: Calkota
Edited by: Calkota on 26/12/2010 07:28:31
Originally by: Voith
Edited by: Voith on 24/12/2010 18:53:58

It is a question of effort.

How long do you think it would take to write a script that finds players on 23/7 rarely leaving the same system who do nothing but rat? Or IPs that have 5+ accounts connecting simultaneously?

As someone who has done some forensic work in databases the answer is less than 5 minutes.

They won't spend 5 minutes to stop bots. You really think they're monitoring exploration stuff? They haven't gave a **** about exploration since they revamped scanning.

It is always a matter of effort. CCP has demonstrated time and time again that they will not expend any effort on either exploration or stopping bots.


If you run something as simple as that you will get a lot of legitimate players as well.

Your gross oversimplification shows your ignorance.



You don't ban based on the statistics, you observe based on them. You can't ban accounts with out some human oversight. The data crunching just narrows down the list of accounts you have to watch. I would wager the 23/7 or 5+ Accounts logic would have fewer than 5% false-positives. There might be some seriously NAT'ed networks that cause issues with the IP lookup, but not many. And no one plays 23/7 for more than a day or two. It isn't humanly possible.

People like you making excuses for CCPs utter failure are why we still have botters. Whenever someone knowledgeable tries to hold CCP to task a dozen ass kissers try to defend them.

Zanes Shoubje
Posted - 2010.12.26 17:43:00 - [18]
 

As far as exploration regions go I think it is save to assume that Amarr, Ammatar and Khanid regions can be considered as two separate groups. I dont know how sites are distributed but they are split by pirate faction.

A dev said somewhere sites tend to cluster in lower population systems(lowsec) where they are less likely to be found and live out their time to respawn. If population is lower in a region they are less likely to get done and spawn back to high population systems.

I know a hisec system that is a dead end behind a lowsec system and the last times I scanned it it allways had a couple of radars, mags and unknowns in it.

Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2010.12.26 21:05:00 - [19]
 

Also consider that there is SO MUCH MORE Amarr/Ammatar/Khanid space than the rest of empire. The number of systems in which Blood Raider and Sansha's Nation sites can spawn in individually are both 1/3 more than all of the space that Guristas sites can spawn in.

Unless the number of Sansha or Blood Raider sites that can spawn is also 1/3 more than the equivalent Gurista version, which we cannot know unless a dev officially says so, there would be on average 25% fewer sites per system to find.

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.27 06:48:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Dorn Val on 27/12/2010 06:49:48
Timing may also play a big part: I was out scanning in Sansha / Amarr space on Christmas Eve and found a lot of Radars and Sansha Command Relay Outposts. I'm beginning to think that by the time I normally log on (about 5 hours after DT) that most of the sites have been run, and haven't had a chance to re-spawn.

For the record: I took 7 days of Radar salvage to Jita 4-4 and sold it for a little over 300 mill. I probably have a little over 200 mill in moduals that I kept, so all totaled it wasn't a bad haul. But keep in mind that I scanned a lot of systems -too many to count. If it hadn't been for the low turn out on Christmas Eve I wouldn't have done half as well.

Edit: I'm back in Caldari space and I'm seeing a lot of the same things I saw in Amarr -system after system that's completely empty, no signatures at all, even right after DT.

Scientist Jill
Posted - 2010.12.29 00:51:00 - [21]
 

Look in the dead end systems, or any systems with low traffic, sites tend to accumulate there. I had 3 deadends I used to scan down every few days and they have 3-5 or more sites, every time. I have seen 12-16 anomalies in them as well.

Dorn Val
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Scientist Jill
Look in the dead end systems, or any systems with low traffic, sites tend to accumulate there. I had 3 deadends I used to scan down every few days and they have 3-5 or more sites, every time. I have seen 12-16 anomalies in them as well.


Thanks! I'm seeing the same effect as well.

Lord Grimmas
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2010.12.29 13:58:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Voith
Edited by: Voith on 24/12/2010 18:53:58
Originally by: Lord Grimmas

There is an ocean of a difference between CCP failing to combat RMT bots (which has been the case so far), most of which are probably mining, and an exploit existing in the game which allows bypassing the scanning interface and extract the signature data directly. The first is user automation, the second is a wall hack. Maybe I just misunderstood you and you mean that they are automating the scanning also?


It is a question of effort.
...



Which is great and all except you still haven't answered my question and clarified your initial suggestion that the Eve client is susceptible to a game-breaking hack. No matter what CCP does or does not do against botting, I do not believe such a hack exists since it's the very basic nature of online security to never trust client input and to never expose sensitive data to the client.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.29 16:24:00 - [24]
 

I can almost always find a radar site within 3 jumps of Rens. Typically it's one with a super low sig strength that can't be scanned down without good skills, good probes, or ship/rig bonuses. Luckily my probing alt has all those things.

Vivian Ramasita
Posted - 2010.12.30 20:06:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Voith
It is always a matter of effort. CCP has demonstrated time and time again that they will not expend any effort on either exploration...


Right, because...Apocrypha, what the heck was that? I'm sure a pair of developers just knocked that out in like five minutes.

Riiiiight?

Marius Wolfe
Posted - 2011.01.01 19:32:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Marius Wolfe on 01/01/2011 19:34:30
I don't have any proof, just observation but I am leaning towards it being the circumstances of Amarr regions compared to Caldari regions. I have moved from Kador to Khanid for exploration due to the population difference and had good luck with my finds.

Also I was in a high sec island in Devoid trying to scan down a w-space link back to high sec and the systems there were packed with sites due to their remote nature. One system I scanned had eleven anomolies and eight signatures up while I was there.

That makes me suspect the enormous size of Amarr space with many remote untouched systems result in the feeling that there as many exporation sites.

5nipe
Posted - 2011.01.01 20:48:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Marius Wolfe
One system I scanned had eleven anomolies and eight signatures up while I was there.



8 sigs? It is nothing :-)

31 sigs in one system

Miss President
Caldari
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
Posted - 2011.01.02 01:05:00 - [28]
 

yes, exploration is broken, thats why I stopped doing it.

here are few examples, some systems get cluttered with multiple signatures - when you run them, lets say if there are 4 radars the loot from 4 of them equals from loot from 1 in another system = multiple signature = smaller pay off in 90% of cases in my experience.

0.0 exploration doesn't pay as well as it used.

some examples, one system had 15 signatures

http://img42.imageshack.us/i/pic1ld.jpg/

http://img194.imageshack.us/i/pic2oe.jpg/

CF ProctoR
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.01.02 17:03:00 - [29]
 


My question is, do exploration sites spawn all the time or are they connected directly to DT? Because if they only spawn after DT then the whole thing is screwed. I mean what about those who can only play way after DT? E.g., 12 hrs after DT? That would be ridiculously unfair.


FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.02 21:43:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: FlameGlow on 02/01/2011 21:44:02
Originally by: CF ProctoR

My question is, do exploration sites spawn all the time or are they connected directly to DT?


Both actually, number of each kind of site seems to be a constant value, when one is despawned another is spawned somewhere else. And they are despawned when someone completes them or on third DT if nobody does. So new sites can be found at any time, but there are considerable amount of them spawned on DT.


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