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Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.17 19:31:00 - [1]
 

Local has long been a hotly contested topic both between players and CCP staff internally.

Predators want it removed or reduced and Prey want it maintained or even buffed.

The most commonly stated problem: Too much easily accessible information.

The most commonly used defense: Needed to maintain social interaction.

This proposal BUFFs both of those basic needs:

Move Local to optional delayed channel similar to Constellation.

Move Region (Yes, it DOES exist!) to be the new primary default channel. Even if it is done the same way as Local (showing everyone in the channel talking or not), Regions are big places and it ceases to be a useful intel tool to the degree of Local. It also vastly increases the social end of public chat access. Possible spam reduction option: put a 15 second cooldown on speaking in Region.

What say you?

ImmaSplodeYou
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.12.17 20:13:00 - [2]
 

Supported - on the condition that D-scan got a moderate buff (in range to about 4-5x what it is atm) so poor carebears still have a chance to GTFO in time

dibblebill
Danneskjold Heavy Industries

Posted - 2010.12.17 21:01:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: dibblebill on 17/12/2010 21:04:07
Supported. Though we should replace local entirely with constellation, in my opinion.

EDIT: As the default comms channel you can't close, I mean. And make local itself a delayed or no member list deal like in W-Space.

Seraphim Risen
Minmatar
Seraphim Holdings

Posted - 2010.12.17 21:02:00 - [4]
 

Supported. Same as above.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:06:00 - [5]
 

I actually think D-Scan should be replaced with the return of the old school Grid RADAR. Except it should be for 'sensor contacts' not the active grid. Then you can select how fine the scan area is and that will determine your range with it.

Say you keep it on 360x360 spheroid scan... range is only going to be 10 au. Focus it to 180x360 Hemispheroid and it doubles the range to 20. And so on. 90x90 Conical would have 30 au range, 60x60 Conical might go 40 au. 30x30, 15x15, and 5x5 needles could be 50, 60, and 70 respectively.

So if you can aim well enough, you can watch a stargate up to 70 au away while plinking away in missions.

Basically its the sniper effect, the more specific you get about where you look, the further you can see and the more you can ignore in your immediate vicinity.

Probes should still be needed to actually warp to stuff however.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:36:00 - [6]
 

no.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.17 21:45:00 - [7]
 

Not supported.

I don't think this proposal is very well thought out, with no local Lo sec will become even more empty and everyone will gather even more in Empire.

A solution needs to address the basic need to know when people are in the same system as you, and the current Dscan is insuficcient and inadequate for that. Your Dscan change is cute in theory but too much work in practice, especially since most people don't quite get how Dscan works (protip its aimed with the camera not the tip of your ship).

Things work fine the way they are as without local the game becomes unplayeable, both for pirates (no easy way to know where someone may be) and for "prey" (no way to know when to GTFO which means you go there even less).

The only way I would support something like this is if there was a tool that did the same local does now. And Dscan would need a lot of changes (especially range wise, but also interphase and usability wise) to even begin to qualify.

Very no.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2010.12.17 22:01:00 - [8]
 

Good compromise, supported.


Not the scanner thing though, that will either be useless or lag everything to hell.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.17 22:24:00 - [9]
 

No, this will only result in chasing people to high sec/forcing people to have alts if they want to live in 0.0 (who then will run high sec missions).

If you would do this i wouldnt blame anyone for using bots on the directional scanner, which is immediatly the only ones gaining from it, the macros. Sure short term you can kill quite some, but then soon 0.0 is even more than now a deserted waste land, and only ones who can spam scan button every few seconds are the macros.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:17:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Gallians
Your Dscan change is cute in theory but too much work in practice, especially since most people don't quite get how Dscan works (protip its aimed with the camera not the tip of your ship).

This pretty much sums up how broken local is, when there's actually people out there that don't know how to use the game's primary intel-gathering tool because they can rely on watching a chat room instead

Originally by: Gallians
Things work fine the way they are as without local the g
ame becomes unplayeable, both for pirates (no easy way to know where someone may be) and for "prey" (no way to know when to GTFO which means you go there even less).

Err, you know there's no local in wspace right? And wspace is hands-down the best (and possibly last) place for solo and small gang pvp'ers to get their fix without getting hotdropped or mega blobbed while flying something more substantial than a frigate

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:25:00 - [11]
 

A proper compromise involves adding 5 new NPC 0.0 regions to the game, with no local. That way everyone can see and compare how regions with and without local perform. And those who like one but not the other can choose where they stay.

Then is the no-local regions are a success, the rest of 0.0 can be changed.
Modifying existing regions in any way will always draw criticism, but it's hard to argue against completely new regions.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen

Err, you know there's no local in wspace right? And wspace is hands-down the best (and possibly last) place for solo and small gang pvp'ers to get their fix without getting hotdropped or mega blobbed while flying something more substantial than a frigate


Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right? And that its because those controlled access dynamics that solo and small gang pvp can happen without "getting hotdropped or megablobbed"; due to there being no way to cyno ships into a wormhole, or get blobs inside (unless we are talking a higher C one, and even then you have the same issues with mass etc to get access in there for the ships you want).

AKA: you confuse the issues completely. No local works because of how wormholes work, wormholes don't work because of no local. And no local wouldn't work in kspace (or be desirable) for the reasons presented in prior posts.

By the way, your stealth whine about cynos and blobs has nothing to do with local, and last I checked this thread was about removing local, not about making pvp viable by reestructuring K space to work like wormholes. Which I am not sure would get much traction either.




Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:35:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Gallians
Not supported.

I don't think this proposal is very well thought out, with no local Lo sec will become even more empty and everyone will gather even more in Empire.


How much more thought out do you want it?

I disagree that more people will stay in empire. The same people who venture forth now will continue to.

Quote:
A solution needs to address the basic need to know when people are in the same system as you, and the current Dscan is insuficcient and inadequate for that. Your Dscan change is cute in theory but too much work in practice, especially since most people don't quite get how Dscan works (protip its aimed with the camera not the tip of your ship).


That basic need is driven by the fact Local works the way it does. Why does it matter if someone is flying around in the same system as you without your knowledge. If they are trying that hard to remain undiscovered, then they should be undiscovered.

As for D-Scan, it wont be any harder to grasp now than it would be after, infact more people would figure it out since visually it would be more intuitive.

Quote:
Things work fine the way they are as without local the game becomes unplayeable, both for pirates (no easy way to know where someone may be) and for "prey" (no way to know when to GTFO which means you go there even less).


Unplayable? Male Cow Excrement. It's a crutch that has always been there, it will be even EASIER to hide from pirates than it is now (aka you can't now). It would be even easier to sneak around undetected by anyone at all. It would make it easier to carebear it up in low or nullsec, because it makes you that much harder to find and identify.

Quote:
The only way I would support something like this is if there was a tool that did the same local does now. And Dscan would need a lot of changes (especially range wise, but also interphase and usability wise) to even begin to qualify.


Replacing local doesn't fix the actual problem gameplay wise. Just like WTZ didn't fix the gameplay problems with instaBMs.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:40:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
No, this will only result in chasing people to high sec/forcing people to have alts if they want to live in 0.0 (who then will run high sec missions).

If you would do this i wouldnt blame anyone for using bots on the directional scanner, which is immediatly the only ones gaining from it, the macros. Sure short term you can kill quite some, but then soon 0.0 is even more than now a deserted waste land, and only ones who can spam scan button every few seconds are the macros.


Have some imagination. Sure it might not be as easy for you to avoid risk, but then you aren't easy to find either... unless you are just making yourself far too easy to locate.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:50:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian


How much more thought out do you want it?

I disagree that more people will stay in empire. The same people who venture forth now will continue to.




If that was true, then there would be no point to changing it: the same people would continue to play in both places, so what is the need to commit CCP resources to something that you seem to think would change nothing.

Quote:
That basic need is driven by the fact Local works the way it does. Why does it matter if someone is flying around in the same system as you without your knowledge. If they are trying that hard to remain undiscovered, then they should be undiscovered.

As for D-Scan, it wont be any harder to grasp now than it would be after, infact more people would figure it out since visually it would be more intuitive.


I disagree that the reason people want to know who is around is based on local. I would think its based on many things, such as ship, or pod integrity, but not local. And I wouldn't say its a crutch, people are using the game the way it works and was designed. You may not like that element of the game, but then I don't like T2 BPO's and they are still around. This doesn't mean that the system works or not as intended, just that for X reason, you don't like it.
Quote:

Unplayable? Male Cow Excrement. It's a crutch that has always been there, it will be even EASIER to hide from pirates than it is now (aka you can't now). It would be even easier to sneak around undetected by anyone at all. It would make it easier to carebear it up in low or nullsec, because it makes you that much harder to find and identify.


I disagree. Pirates will just roam with scanner alts to quickly scan down whoever (and finding if someone is around is not hard with the current probes). This just makes it a lot harded for non pirates to survive because they are A: doing something atm and may get distracted and forget to pulse DSCAN (which has pitiful range atm anyway) or B: get dropped from a probe scan from pirates OUTSIDE of DSCAN with no warning.

I would say that the dismal state of population in losec due to pirate overfishing would show that such a buff to piracy is not required or desirable.

Quote:


Replacing local doesn't fix the actual problem gameplay wise. Just like WTZ didn't fix the gameplay problems with instaBMs.


Citation needed: what are the problems gameplay wise with WTZ exactly? Before it, people made thousands of bookmarks to get the same effect. CCP fixed that issue quite successfully, I think: the obtuse, unintuitive and ******ed system where you needed a billion bookmarks was replaced with an elegant solution that is intuitive and provides a much superior gameplay experience.

RedSplat
Posted - 2010.12.17 23:54:00 - [16]
 


Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:13:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Gallians
Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right? And that its because those controlled access dynamics that solo and small gang pvp can happen without "getting hotdropped or megablobbed";

Controlled access dynamics? Stargates don't count as this already? Hotdrops don't work because cynos don't work there obviously, and megablobs happen because people in general are out to win, not to get fights. If they're not assured of winning you get a lot less people willing to join an op

Quote:
By the way, your stealth whine about cynos and blobs has nothing to do with local, and last I checked this thread was about removing local, not about making pvp viable by reestructuring K space to work like wormholes.

Blobs have everything to do with local. Try two different gangs: in one, tell everyone there are 5 hostiles and you've got 15 people, x up!. In the other, say you've got 15 people and there are some hostiles flying about but you're not entirely certain how many or in what ships. Which gang will be bigger? The one where there's almost no risk of course. So yeah, local does contribute to blobbing

Quote:
And I wouldn't say its a crutch, people are using the game the way it works and was designed.

The problem is local wasn't designed as an intel tool, and CCP have been talking about changing it forever.

Originally by: CCP Zulupark
Local as an info tool:
We want to put local in 0.0 as a delayed mode channel so only people who talk in the channel are shown. We are also looking at other alternatives but if we find nothing better this will be put in testing at least.

Notice the date on that post?

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Gallians
Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right? And that its because those controlled access dynamics that solo and small gang pvp can happen without "getting hotdropped or megablobbed";

Controlled access dynamics? Stargates don't count as this already? Hotdrops don't work because cynos don't work there obviously, and megablobs happen because people in general are out to win, not to get fights. If they're not assured of winning you get a lot less people willing to join an op

Quote:
By the way, your stealth whine about cynos and blobs has nothing to do with local, and last I checked this thread was about removing local, not about making pvp viable by reestructuring K space to work like wormholes.

Blobs have everything to do with local. Try two different gangs: in one, tell everyone there are 5 hostiles and you've got 15 people, x up!. In the other, say you've got 15 people and there are some hostiles flying about but you're not entirely certain how many or in what ships. Which gang will be bigger? The one where there's almost no risk of course. So yeah, local does contribute to blobbing

Quote:
And I wouldn't say its a crutch, people are using the game the way it works and was designed.

The problem is local wasn't designed as an intel tool, and CCP have been talking about changing it forever.

Originally by: CCP Zulupark
Local as an info tool:
We want to put local in 0.0 as a delayed mode channel so only people who talk in the channel are shown. We are also looking at other alternatives but if we find nothing better this will be put in testing at least.

Notice the date on that post?



Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as HAVE RULES ABOUT THE SHIPS YOU CAN JUMP THROUGH, THE NUMBER OF SUCH SHIPS, and last but not least MAY CLOSE AND LEAVE YOUR SHIPS INSIDE WITH THE ONLY WAY OUT BEING SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT FITTED WITH THE RIGHT MODULE.

But yeah, Stargates count as controlled access dynamics and are just the same Rolling Eyes

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:31:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Gallians
Originally by: Anubis Xian


How much more thought out do you want it?

I disagree that more people will stay in empire. The same people who venture forth now will continue to.




If that was true, then there would be no point to changing it: the same people would continue to play in both places, so what is the need to commit CCP resources to something that you seem to think would change nothing.


Circular logic is circular. I didn't say it would change nothing, I said the negative impact you predict is a vast exaggeration.

Quote:
Quote:
That basic need is driven by the fact Local works the way it does. Why does it matter if someone is flying around in the same system as you without your knowledge. If they are trying that hard to remain undiscovered, then they should be undiscovered.

As for D-Scan, it wont be any harder to grasp now than it would be after, infact more people would figure it out since visually it would be more intuitive.


I disagree that the reason people want to know who is around is based on local. I would think its based on many things, such as ship, or pod integrity, but not local. And I wouldn't say its a crutch, people are using the game the way it works and was designed. You may not like that element of the game, but then I don't like T2 BPO's and they are still around. This doesn't mean that the system works or not as intended, just that for X reason, you don't like it.


What is the effect of Local? You bypass a system in half a minute or less because you know definitively there is nobody there. Or you know there are people there and you know they are not potential targets. Or you know your sworn enemy is there and now you are going to spend time hunting them down.

What is the effect with no 'Local'? You stick around an empty system for as long as it takes to satisfy yourself there is nobody there. Or you see people on scan, but don't know they are friendly to you till you chase them down. Or you miss your sworn enemy because you no longer have that absolute knowledge.

Local takes the most important sandbox dynamic from eve: Random chance.

Quote:
Quote:

Unplayable? Male Cow Excrement. It's a crutch that has always been there, it will be even EASIER to hide from pirates than it is now (aka you can't now). It would be even easier to sneak around undetected by anyone at all. It would make it easier to carebear it up in low or nullsec, because it makes you that much harder to find and identify.


I disagree. Pirates will just roam with scanner alts to quickly scan down whoever (and finding if someone is around is not hard with the current probes). This just makes it a lot harded for non pirates to survive because they are A: doing something atm and may get distracted and forget to pulse DSCAN (which has pitiful range atm anyway) or B: get dropped from a probe scan from pirates OUTSIDE of DSCAN with no warning.

I would say that the dismal state of population in losec due to pirate overfishing would show that such a buff to piracy is not required or desirable.


Then fix probing, make probes like fighters and have them chase targets down (after you find that target on 'd-scan', but you have to warp to the probe (like it was a fleet member) and not to a convenient BM. Scan sees probes, so they would know there is a probe chasing them down if they are paying attention.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.12.18 00:36:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Gallians

Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as HAVE RULES ABOUT THE SHIPS YOU CAN JUMP THROUGH, THE NUMBER OF SUCH SHIPS, and last but not least MAY CLOSE AND LEAVE YOUR SHIPS INSIDE WITH THE ONLY WAY OUT BEING SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT FITTED WITH THE RIGHT MODULE.

So, wouldn't it be a lot harder to control TRANSIENT doors that can COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND versus a fixed gate that's always in the same location and leads to the same system? You were telling me it was a lot easier to control access dynamics in wh space weren't you? Did you change your mind?

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.18 01:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Gallians

Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as HAVE RULES ABOUT THE SHIPS YOU CAN JUMP THROUGH, THE NUMBER OF SUCH SHIPS, and last but not least MAY CLOSE AND LEAVE YOUR SHIPS INSIDE WITH THE ONLY WAY OUT BEING SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT FITTED WITH THE RIGHT MODULE.

So, wouldn't it be a lot harder to control TRANSIENT doors that can COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND versus a fixed gate that's always in the same location and leads to the same system? You were telling me it was a lot easier to control access dynamics in wh space weren't you? Did you change your mind?



WTF is this I don't even.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said that due to their nature it was hard to get ships inside wormholes. This is due to the nature of wormholes and not because the inhabitants do anything in particular (although a lot of them do bubble their POS's). WH's are secluded by their nature and that is why no local works.

You need to learn to read and or lay off the crack.

Here is the quote again, see if you understand it this time: Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right?

And again:

Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right?

I confuzzled by your intelligence.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.18 01:06:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian

Then fix probing, make probes like fighters and have them chase targets down (after you find that target on 'd-scan', but you have to warp to the probe (like it was a fleet member) and not to a convenient BM. Scan sees probes, so they would know there is a probe chasing them down if they are paying attention.


I would support this probing change. By the way what were the problems with Warp to Zero? I am very curious.

As I said, no local may work, but for it to work, a lot of changes are needed (like the probes, for instance). Those changes need to be done BEFORE even considering getting rid of local as it would cause a lot more problems than it would fix (and atm I don't really think it causes ANY problems. Due to the date on the CCP quote about delaying it I would think either CCP agrees and decided local was fine, or they think the issues of changing it overweight any benefits.. which is my posture as well).

SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:01:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: SolarKnight on 18/12/2010 02:04:05
Edited by: SolarKnight on 18/12/2010 02:01:41
No one has thought of the obvious impact of this?

Constellation chat still has a total user number like local does, even in delayed mode.

All you have to do is type a . in the channel and you see it.

All carebear has to do is monitor this channel for any kind of increase in number, and POS up and he has a constellations worth of notice of hostiles/neutrals instead of a systems worth of notice?

Also, just re-read OP.

Whats to stop the carebear/target warping to POS everytime the local channel count goes up instead of a new portrait popping up?

Fix in place, same effect as before?

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:15:00 - [24]
 

? Let's go over it again:
Originally by: Gallian
Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right?

So I challenged you: very controlled access dynamics? How are unpredictable wormholes more controlled than static gates?

Of course, you backed me up right away
Originally by: Gallian
Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as [...]

I mean, fixed doors are surely easier to control than unpredictable collapsable doors that need special equipment to even find, right? Surely?

Now we reach this:
Originally by: Gallian
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said that due to their nature it was hard to get ships inside wormholes.

Whoosh, you seem to have lost track of the thread and now you're off on a tangent about ships. We're not talking about getting ships into wspace. We were talking about how easy it is to control access to wspace versus controlling gates in nullsec, remember?

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service

Posted - 2010.12.18 02:26:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gallians
Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as HAVE RULES ABOUT THE SHIPS YOU CAN JUMP THROUGH, THE NUMBER OF SUCH SHIPS, and last but not least MAY CLOSE AND LEAVE YOUR SHIPS INSIDE WITH THE ONLY WAY OUT BEING SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT FITTED WITH THE RIGHT MODULE.

But yeah, Stargates count as controlled access dynamics and are just the same Rolling Eyes

It is less likely to be visited for ws-space prey than it is for k-space prey, because roaming is harder (you named it, you need to scan for the gates to roam) and acquiring intel about what is in the system is harder too (d-scan, probes).

Now.. all the time the solo/small gang people tell us that w-space is their heaven.
You gotta ask why that is - well, actually you don't, cause the answer is clear. It's harder to roam and harder to get intel.

Make travel longer (stealth WTZ nerf), remove local.

/supported

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:27:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
? Let's go over it again:
Originally by: Gallian
Err, you know that no local in wspace only works because wsystems are very low traffic/deserted systems by their nature with very controlled access dynamics, right?

So I challenged you: very controlled access dynamics? How are unpredictable wormholes more controlled than static gates?

Of course, you backed me up right away
Originally by: Gallian
Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as [...]

I mean, fixed doors are surely easier to control than unpredictable collapsable doors that need special equipment to even find, right? Surely?

Now we reach this:
Originally by: Gallian
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said that due to their nature it was hard to get ships inside wormholes.

Whoosh, you seem to have lost track of the thread and now you're off on a tangent about ships. We're not talking about getting ships into wspace. We were talking about how easy it is to control access to wspace versus controlling gates in nullsec, remember?


ShockedI want in in the conversation you are holding with yourself in your head. It sounds exhilarating. Shocked

I think we are having a communication problem here. I think the easiest way to fix is as follows:

1. Get a dictionary (google will do too)
2. Look up the word (words) or term (terms) that confuse you such. There is no shame in looking and noone will know, so look early and often!
3. Go over every post, read every word, and make notes. Possibly highlight parts you don't understand (not on your monitor though, they will move if you scroll the text!)
4. Attempt this whole posting thing again.

Gallians
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:32:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Gallians
Are you suggesting Stargates and entering a wormhole are the same? I am not quite clear on that. Because I thought FIXED doors between A and B were substantially different from TRANSIENT doors between A and B that COLLAPSE and need SPECIAL EQUIPMENT TO BE FOUND, as well as HAVE RULES ABOUT THE SHIPS YOU CAN JUMP THROUGH, THE NUMBER OF SUCH SHIPS, and last but not least MAY CLOSE AND LEAVE YOUR SHIPS INSIDE WITH THE ONLY WAY OUT BEING SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT FITTED WITH THE RIGHT MODULE.

But yeah, Stargates count as controlled access dynamics and are just the same Rolling Eyes

It is less likely to be visited for ws-space prey than it is for k-space prey, because roaming is harder (you named it, you need to scan for the gates to roam) and acquiring intel about what is in the system is harder too (d-scan, probes).

Now.. all the time the solo/small gang people tell us that w-space is their heaven.
You gotta ask why that is - well, actually you don't, cause the answer is clear. It's harder to roam and harder to get intel.

Make travel longer (stealth WTZ nerf), remove local.

/supported


I don't think changing WTZ is desirable or would change the dynamic. If you want the same effect then you need to get rid of solid gates, set transient gates that go to random systems, randomly close and have limits on number and size of ships going through, and disable cynos in every shape way and form.

Then you could disable local and have things work just as if you were in a WH system!

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:37:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: SolarKnight
Constellation chat still has a total user number like local does, even in delayed mode. *snip*

All carebear has to do is monitor this channel for any kind of increase in number, and POS up and he has a constellations worth of notice of hostiles/neutrals instead of a systems worth of notice?
*snip*

Feasibility of that? How many false warnings will this create - constellation wide active population intel?

Anyways.. the whole intel system is a freaking cluster****. D-scan is killing the servers, if we need to rely on it more than now. Mostly because Probes can only be countered with d-scan and if combat probes are used correctly, they are a deadly thing without the ample warning of local.
Add on top of this the mismatch between pvp fit vs pve fits and the rewards in high sec compared to everywhere else and you see that it's FUBAR.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2010.12.18 02:43:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Gallians
Originally by: Tres Farmer
*snip*
It is less likely to be visited for ws-space prey than it is for k-space prey, because roaming is harder (you named it, you need to scan for the gates to roam) and acquiring intel about what is in the system is harder too (d-scan, probes).

Now.. all the time the solo/small gang people tell us that w-space is their heaven.
You gotta ask why that is - well, actually you don't, cause the answer is clear. It's harder to roam and harder to get intel.

Make travel longer (stealth WTZ nerf), remove local.

I don't think changing WTZ is desirable or would change the dynamic. If you want the same effect then you need to get rid of solid gates, set transient gates that go to random systems, randomly close and have limits on number and size of ships going through, and disable cynos in every shape way and form.

Then you could disable local and have things work just as if you were in a WH system!

The dynamic that's wrong is: a gang that is able to roam 30+ systems in a night and has instant intel about any potential targets.
No wonder the prey is gone with such predators.

If you'd make it harder for the predators it naturally leads to more prey sticking around.

As for hot-drop protection.. any thoughts on a module/probe/etc that would work as local cyno-jammer (say 200km+)?

Anna Lifera
6....
HAWK Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.18 05:07:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
megablobs happen because people in general are out to win, not to get fights. If they're not assured of winning you get a lot less people willing to join an op


lmfao Laughing


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