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Zilabeth Vomarr
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:32:00 - [1]
 

There is much discussion concerning the Tengu but very little concerning the Loki, Legion, and Proteus? Are they so very outclassed by the Tengu that no one bothers to train and fly them?

If you do fly them, for what purpose and how are you fitting them?

helmeo
Caldari
Star Mandate
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:44:00 - [2]
 

i fly the loki, for exploration. but the loki is kinda like a by-product of training for other minmatar ships, and not that it does exploration better than the tengu, just kinda bored of spamming missiles all day long. and it's not a substitute. and it's faster than the tengu.

DK Reborn
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:46:00 - [3]
 

I just flew my Legion for the first time yesterday and ran a couple of level 4s. All I can say is I love it, it can tear through some rats.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:06:00 - [4]
 

As of the learning SP refund out of three accounts, one can fly Tengus, one can fly Legions, and one is working towards the Legion.

As I see it, the Tengu's awesomeness is only worthwhile if you have the missile skills. For a char that wants a T3 now (well, in less than a month) as opposed to sometime next year, if the char focused on gunnery the Tengu is out.

I did some EFT warrioring way back, and I think I was most satisfied with the Legion for an exploration vessel. (2 highs and 2 mids given up to probes, salvager, codebreaker, analyzer) I think the Loki came in slightly ahead, except I liked the reduced ammo usage and superior range of pulses. People like to talk about ACs having range, but honestly I'll take 34+5 over 4 + 31 or whatever anyday.

And my last char is taking the legion because that's my Amarr char. I think eventually I'll train for a Loki on some of my chars, but meh.

Ok, I'll just admit it, I like lasers.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:09:00 - [5]
 

Oh, also, fun fact. With deadspace mods the Legion can run the strongest cap stable (or almost) tank out of all the T3s (2400+). Of course that's an exercise in EFT-warrioring. In any real situation where you need a tank that strong, you'd need a bigger buffer and not getting neuted.

Lady Ayeipsia
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:10:00 - [6]
 

"(2 highs and 2 mids given up to probes, salvager, codebreaker, analyzer)"

Honestly, put the analyzer into your cargo hold and use the slot for something else. Chances are, there will be a station in system you can dock at if you wish to switch to the analyzer. Besides, unless you are doing very low sec/nul sec exploration, usually the analyzer sites aren't as worth the trouble. Run the combat ones, the radar, and if you really want, dock up, swap the codebreaker for an analyzer, and then hit the mag sites.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:15:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
"(2 highs and 2 mids given up to probes, salvager, codebreaker, analyzer)"

Honestly, put the analyzer into your cargo hold and use the slot for something else. Chances are, there will be a station in system you can dock at if you wish to switch to the analyzer. Besides, unless you are doing very low sec/nul sec exploration, usually the analyzer sites aren't as worth the trouble. Run the combat ones, the radar, and if you really want, dock up, swap the codebreaker for an analyzer, and then hit the mag sites.


1 slot is worth less to me than the ability to keep moving without interruption, especially in areas where the loss of a minute docking, re-warping out etc. might mean losing the site to someone else.

Really this ship is meant to be an oversized Probe with the ability to take care of itself. I'm really annoyed that there isn't a T2 version that does just that while still having the probe str bonus.

Lady Ayeipsia
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:40:00 - [8]
 

"Really this ship is meant to be an oversized Probe with the ability to take care of itself. I'm really annoyed that there isn't a T2 version that does just that while still having the probe str bonus."

You and me both, you and me both!!!!!

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
"Really this ship is meant to be an oversized Probe with the ability to take care of itself. I'm really annoyed that there isn't a T2 version that does just that while still having the probe str bonus."

You and me both, you and me both!!!!!


I hadn't looked too closely at the cov ops before I trained them. Only afterwards did I realize that they had no drone bay!! (The probe with it's two drones could handle high sec radar/mag sites decently well. My Cov Ops with a single artillery cannon is like a bad joke Sad)

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mavnas
Oh, also, fun fact. With deadspace mods the Legion can run the strongest cap stable (or almost) tank out of all the T3s (2400+). Of course that's an exercise in EFT-warrioring. In any real situation where you need a tank that strong, you'd need a bigger buffer and not getting neuted.


your doing it wrong. I just got 4595 on a tengu without really even trying.

for most things people want to do the tengu is just that much superior that is why most people post about the tengu.

most of the legion posts are "why does the legion suck so much?" posts, okay so it is good at killing frigs, woo what a role! it just doesn't have the range or the dps to compete with the tengu.

the proteus is pretty much useless outside of its super plated amazing ehp buffer pvp setup. I'd say this is half due to hybrids suck, and half no good drone subsystem.

the loki, I'm not very familiar with it but it seems to have low dps with arty, and crap range (and not very good dps) with ac. it can do some cool things with long range webs, but eh, might as well just buy a huggin/rapier for that.

the loki and legion at least can be fit to be gang boosters that can't be scanned down, but hey the tengu can do that too!

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:41:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zilabeth Vomarr
There is much discussion concerning the Tengu but very little concerning the Loki, Legion, and Proteus? Are they so very outclassed by the Tengu that no one bothers to train and fly them?

If you do fly them, for what purpose and how are you fitting them?
the T3's are pretty much described like this:


tengu = well balanced and good at everything xcept Ewar and rail sniper. provides a great missile spammer in both HAM and HML configs and it can also be a good cov ops probing ship

proteus = nigh on useless besides super-plated blaster boat or covert dps boat.

legion = suffers from a poor covert ops sub and a meh laser-boat. works relatively well as a super sacriledge, or an unprobable gang booster.

loki = it has the dubious honor of being the only T3 that can use 7 weapons, altho it needs the mixed gun/missile sub for that. greatest problem of the ship, in my view, is that, since it's a race that, supposedly, tanks shield as well as armor, it also suffers from schizoid problems due to slot layout being most of the times insufficient for any of these. it can be a munnin + 1 turret, a huggabond (altho somewhat inferior to either vagabond or huggin), and a good gang booster.



in sum, tengu is the only "general purpose" T3, even with the lacking rail and ECM configs, while the other 3 are more specific.

wish CCP could release the damned 5th sub and play around with some of the other less used subs to make them worthwhile.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:42:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ogogov on 16/12/2010 21:43:22
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
the proteus is pretty much useless outside of its super plated amazing ehp buffer pvp setup. I'd say this is half due to hybrids suck, and half no good drone subsystem.


CCP are so, so precious about what they do with drones. The only drone damage rig is a sentry damage augmentor, the Myrmidon can't field five Heavy/Sentry drones. They show nowhere near this level of stinginess with any other weapons system. This comes through very strongly in the design of the Proteus, as they clearly didn't want to give it enough bandwidth to put it into the same league as the Ishtar or give it ubertank killdozer powers like the Dominix.

Unfortunately that leaves the only effective fits relying on the long-forgotten blaster or rail setups. because I really want to risk my 400m ship that can't dictate range in a closeup brawl. Kited. Chewed apart slowly. Dumb lossmail. Rolling Eyes

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.16 21:52:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ogogov
Edited by: Ogogov on 16/12/2010 21:43:22
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
the proteus is pretty much useless outside of its super plated amazing ehp buffer pvp setup. I'd say this is half due to hybrids suck, and half no good drone subsystem.


CCP are so, so precious about what they do with drones. The only drone damage rig is a sentry damage augmentor, the Myrmidon can't field five Heavy/Sentry drones. They show nowhere near this level of stinginess with any other weapons system. This comes through very strongly in the design of the Proteus, as they clearly didn't want to give it enough bandwidth to put it into the same league as the Ishtar or give it ubertank killdozer powers like the Dominix.

Unfortunately that leaves the only effective fits relying on the long-forgotten blaster or rail setups. because I really want to risk my 400m ship that can't dictate range in a closeup brawl. Kited. Chewed apart slowly. Dumb lossmail. Rolling Eyes
drones are somewhat unique tbh.

while destructible, they do have the ability of maintaining the same dps, independently of the type of ewar applied to you.

not saying don't I concur with you, since they also suffer from delayed dps (specially heavy drones) and they have squeaky AI and are restricted to one type of damage, but they probably wanted to deploy T3's like they usually deploy new ships, IE: pre-nerfed.

proteus' drone subs do need a tune up however, like the tengu's ECM sub (rail sub is more because of rails and not the sub itself), the loki's defensive subs, and the legion's covert sub, laser turret sub (somewhat), drone sub and energy neut sub.

Zilabeth Vomarr
Posted - 2010.12.16 22:04:00 - [14]
 

All good feedback, for which I thank you. I'm most like to next be able to fly the Loki, how does it stack up as a mission ship against the T1/T2 Minmatar ships?

lag kills
Original Sin.
Underworld Excavators
Posted - 2010.12.16 22:27:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Zilabeth Vomarr
All good feedback, for which I thank you. I'm most like to next be able to fly the Loki, how does it stack up as a mission ship against the T1/T2 Minmatar ships?


loki is more like a gun-based version of the tengu, in pve form. can make similar shield setups with dual ded space small boosters or single medium. range is the only limiting factor, but with my setup you can kill frigs and destroyers from over 40km away, with short range ammo and ACs. once the webbers are out of the way, you can usually just speed over to an object to orbit close to the battleships and clear everything as it groups up in a big ball. i'm sure a tricked out battleship can be better, but i hate flying them and this thing is fun and still efficient enough.


Elsa Nietzsche
Posted - 2010.12.16 23:22:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
proteus = nigh on useless besides super-plated blaster boat or covert dps boat.


just as a slight counter to this, I've seen this 'super plated buffer' be used quite effectively in the last room of a 10/10 to tank while DPS & logi ships come in and support/kill everything.

Proteus, while not near as useful in all situations, definitely excels at a few

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:20:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 17/12/2010 01:30:28
Originally by: Ogogov
CCP are so, so precious about what they do with drones.


Because drones used to be ******edly OP. Gallente in general was FOTM, with 1600 Thoraxes, nos domis and Myrms with full flights of heavies.

Loki does shield tanking fine, armor tanking for PvP gimps your DPS somewhat or you leave resist hole(s). Still viable if you're just looking for a lot of long-range webs or baiting.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.12.17 04:46:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
your doing it wrong. I just got 4595 on a tengu without really even trying.


I should have specified, no heat, no gang bonuses, no cap boosters. I'm sure the Legion can be pushed much further with those.


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.12.17 04:58:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Because drones used to be ******edly OP. Gallente in general was FOTM, with 1600 Thoraxes, nos domis and Myrms with full flights of heavies.


The Myrm wasn't overpowered, at the very least. And the 1600 plate Thorax with frigate blasters was a joke. There's a reason nobody uses that fit today. And the Nos domi was 'overpowered' because of (wait for it!) Nos. At least insofar as Nos was overpowered. Drones aren't, and never have been, an overpowered weapons system.

Quote:
Loki does shield tanking fine, armor tanking for PvP gimps your DPS somewhat or you leave resist hole(s). Still viable if you're just looking for a lot of long-range webs or baiting.


I agree that the Loki is fine. The Tengu just does it all better. A lot, lot, lot, lot better.

-Liang

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.12.17 05:20:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Elsa Nietzsche
Quote:
proteus = nigh on useless besides super-plated blaster boat or covert dps boat.


just as a slight counter to this, I've seen this 'super plated buffer' be used quite effectively in the last room of a 10/10 to tank while DPS & logi ships come in and support/kill everything.

Proteus, while not near as useful in all situations, definitely excels at a few


you are agreeing with him you realize?

Originally by: Mavnas
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
your doing it wrong. I just got 4595 on a tengu without really even trying.


I should have specified, no heat, no gang bonuses, no cap boosters. I'm sure the Legion can be pushed much further with those.




adding heat and gang bonuses, no need for silly cap boosters, I get 18339 Twisted Evil

pyyKtas
Posted - 2010.12.17 06:40:00 - [21]
 

I run loki for sansha plexes with 1k ish tank and 600 DPS with a faction repper worth 150m (only faction mod on the ship). Getting that on tengu you would need to invest much more isk. Though you don't need to chase rats.

I like everything except running after runs about my loki.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.17 08:45:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 17/12/2010 08:47:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Myrm wasn't overpowered, at the very least. And the 1600 plate Thorax with frigate blasters was a joke. There's a reason nobody uses that fit today. And the Nos domi was 'overpowered' because of (wait for it!) Nos. At least insofar as Nos was overpowered. Drones aren't, and never have been, an overpowered weapons system.


Allow to rephrase, pre-bandwidth limitations, droneboats were capable of hitting well above their weight class (Myrm and Eos). The 1600 plate Thorax was from way back, 06-07ish and had medium blasters (as I recall, I could be misremembering).

Quote:
Loki does shield tanking fine, armor tanking for PvP gimps your DPS somewhat or you leave resist hole(s). Still viable if you're just looking for a lot of long-range webs or baiting.


Quote:
I agree that the Loki is fine. The Tengu just does it all better. A lot, lot, lot, lot better.


Have you tried using the sig-reduction sub instead of the 'traditional' tank subs? Combined with a booster, you can sig-tank medium guns reasonably well, something like 60m sig radius means not too much of **** can hit you without webs.

Anyway, I agree that a Tengu is just flat out better in every way for PvE with few exceptions. But PvP I actually think a Loki is superior.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.17 11:03:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 17/12/2010 08:47:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Myrm wasn't overpowered, at the very least. And the 1600 plate Thorax with frigate blasters was a joke. There's a reason nobody uses that fit today. And the Nos domi was 'overpowered' because of (wait for it!) Nos. At least insofar as Nos was overpowered. Drones aren't, and never have been, an overpowered weapons system.


Allow to rephrase, pre-bandwidth limitations, droneboats were capable of hitting well above their weight class (Myrm and Eos). The 1600 plate Thorax was from way back, 06-07ish and had medium blasters (as I recall, I could be misremembering).


the 1600 thorax didn't have space for medium guns. usual setup was using small neutrons and medium drones. then CCP nerfed the plate mass and they became pretty much lol. Before of that, it was nerfed when they reduced the drone sizes AND reduced the number of drones you could field, since the thorax was actually a drone cruiser back then, being the only that could field 8 heavies. looks like lots of dps, but to today's standarts, those drones would equal to 4 heavies with no bonuses on them.

myrmidom was never overpowered because the dps was coming from just the heavy drones. Eos was a case on it's own since it was a fleet command, designed to dish out gang bonuses and tank, being better at being a field command than the astarte that was the real field command ship.

fkingfurious
Posted - 2010.12.17 11:14:00 - [24]
 

The uber Thorax you're thinking of harks back to '06, possibly even '05, when a Rax was capable of launching a full flight of Ogres. This was fixed at the same time as drones got re-jigged so you could only launch 5 and all the other skills and whatnot came in.

The idea of the Myrmidon being overpowered with 5 Heavy Drones now is frankly laughable. Take a few turrets off it if you'd fancy but in the face of Drake Armies, nano-canes and even shield gank Harbys the lumbering, fail active tank Myrmidon isn't ever gonna be a really frightening prospect. 1v1 maybe but who the **** cares about that these days?

But yeah, the Tengu is the only one that can basically beat any tech 2 equivalnet into a ****ed hat (except ECM boats.) It utterly trumps the NIghthawk too.
As ponted out, ther est dont do that. The Loki can be an intersting mix of huggin and Vaga, but not better than either. The Proteus utterly fails in any drone config leaving you with only fail hybrids to fall back on and the legion makes a decent Ham platform but for pure laser performance (you know, what amarr are supposed to be really good at) you're as well to just fly a Zealot and save yourself some cash.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.17 11:30:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: fkingfurious
The uber Thorax you're thinking of harks back to '06, possibly even '05, when a Rax was capable of launching a full flight of Ogres. This was fixed at the same time as drones got re-jigged so you could only launch 5 and all the other skills and whatnot came in.


Yeah, that was around when I first started and didn't even get out of the trial.

Quote:
The idea of the Myrmidon being overpowered with 5 Heavy Drones now is frankly laughable. Take a few turrets off it if you'd fancy but in the face of Drake Armies, nano-canes and even shield gank Harbys the lumbering, fail active tank Myrmidon isn't ever gonna be a really frightening prospect. 1v1 maybe but who the **** cares about that these days?


Yeah, I was just saying why every T3 drone sub was pre-nerfed. And droneboats in general are treated like stepchildren. I want my full heavy Eos back :(

TheMahdi
Posted - 2010.12.19 12:26:00 - [26]
 

If you're not flying a Tengu, you're doing it wrong.

Mr Dilkington
Posted - 2010.12.19 12:42:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: TheMahdi
If you're not flying a Tengu, you're doing it wrong.


My loki would **** the face off your poxy tengu

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.12.19 13:21:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mr Dilkington
Originally by: TheMahdi
If you're not flying a Tengu, you're doing it wrong.


My loki would **** the face off your poxy tengu


Your assuming he decloaks. Tengu pilots are cowards.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
Posted - 2010.12.21 01:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

and are restricted to one type of damage



Except integrated & augmentated drones that is.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2010.12.21 02:10:00 - [30]
 

I can fly all 4 of the T3's and I have flown them all in 0.0 for ratting and such. These ships were fitted for stealth, NOT PvP.

Tengu is the best, with:
Better natural resists for the rats I shoot (Serpentis and Gurista)
Selectable damage type, including Precision or Fury missiles
No range issues
Full use of slot layout. All tank in the mids, All gank in the bottoms.

Proteus was second best for me with:
Most importantly the drone bay, to kill fast frigs up close.
Decent natural resists
Good slot layout for what I do
Decent tank, not as good as the Tengu

Loki is third because:
It's a nice wingman...But it couldn't take role as a primary tank or best DPS
Decent/good slot layout
I shield tank mine

Legion:
Bad natural resists for what I do.
Bad range
Bad DPS/unselectable damage type



 

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