open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked EVE, Morality, Etc.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic

Philiph Stronzo
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:26:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata
Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 11:38:31
1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course)


1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot)


2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"?

[Example would be: Blow someones car up, and the police blow yours up. Or steal someones wallet and they're allowed to beat you up. Or, mug someone in bad neighborhoods enough, and the good ones ban you. Etc etc.]

--------

My answers:<

1) Only rarely. It's kind of the point of the game.
1a) Feels kinda empty, but still entertaining.
2) Wouldn't consider it outside of a game. Despite the fact that people are still, yknow, 'people', even on the other side of a monitor, EVE is the kind of game where you sign up -knowing- bad things will happen. Kinda like how if you go into a boxing match, you expect to get punched, but that hardly makes it ok to punch people on the street.


1) Yes frequently. Ninja salvaging/looting.
2) One's circumstances can make a man a thief. If I need a lot of isk but I can't spend some time in farming my first option is steal to others with scamming/ninja etc.

Eastman Color
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:33:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata
Originally by: Eastman Color
Do you feel bad when you shoot people in a FPS?

If you were in a martial arts tournement would you feel bad about beating the other guy?

It's a game, a perpetual competition where you set your own goals.

No I don't\wouldn't mug\steal\destroy other peoples stuff in real life.

The way I know the difference between real life and a game is in real life I rarely control my actions with a keyboard\joypad.


The gods of irony will soon be paralyzing you. Except for your hands. You'll be gifted a joystick operated wheelchair and a text to speech translator.


awesome

Diesel47
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:44:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata
Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 11:38:31
So, people in EVE can be pretty immoral.

Scamming, stealing, preying on others, it's all pretty common fare. Just part of the game.

But that leads me to a few questions: (Hopefully, amidst the trolling, a few people will actually answer honestly.)

1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course)


1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot)


2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"?

[Example would be: Blow someones car up, and the police blow yours up. Or steal someones wallet and they're allowed to beat you up. Or, mug someone in bad neighborhoods enough, and the good ones ban you. Etc etc.]

--------

My answers:<

1) Only rarely. It's kind of the point of the game.
1a) Feels kinda empty, but still entertaining.
2) Wouldn't consider it outside of a game. Despite the fact that people are still, yknow, 'people', even on the other side of a monitor, EVE is the kind of game where you sign up -knowing- bad things will happen. Kinda like how if you go into a boxing match, you expect to get punched, but that hardly makes it ok to punch people on the street.


Yeah I stole a hulk from somebody once and I felt bad afterwards.


Hatch Nasty
Caldari
Mean and Nasty
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:50:00 - [34]
 

EVE is an MMORPG. And I believe it's possible for someone to role-play being an evil pirate without necessarily being evil IRL. They can engage in scamming, ninja looting, ganking, etc., because they are role-playing an evil character in the EVE universe, and that's what their character would do - just like any villain in a book or movie.

I think some other players focus more on the MMO part, as simply a competitive numbers game. They keep score by the killboard stats, and the relative morality of the actions within the game are irrelevant. Everything is points on the scorecard. EVE is just a game, and they are playing to win.

Then, there are people who are simply cruel/antisocial/psychotic bastards IRL, and they derive enjoyment from making other people unhappy. EVE offers them a safe place to act out, insulated behind a screen and a fake name.

My answers to the OPs questions:

1) Yes. I suppose I was too well ingrained with the concepts of moral character and good sportsmanship at an early age, and so I'm handicapped a little in EVE. Very Happy

1b) N/A. I don't act aggressively simply for the sake of doing it.

2) I behave in EVE much the same way as I do in the real world. I don't feel comfortable being sociopathic in either context.


De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:55:00 - [35]
 

Assuming for a moment that RL meant I was flying 200 million tons of metallic death at faster than light speeds, raking in billions in cash every month, and could never die?

Yeah, I'd be the biggest ***** in the known universe.

RAW23
Posted - 2010.12.16 14:00:00 - [36]
 

Theft, murder and extortion can all fall under the heading of 'legitimate play style' as far as I'm concerned and don't have any out of game moral implications. They are not, however, to my taste as the collateral fall-out of these actions might leave someone 'hurt' (annoyed, angry, upset, etc) in real life (consensual PvP is a different matter). What I do find odious are actions that have no object other than to 'hurt' the real people sitting behind their computers (i.e. griefing). Stealing billions and making a corp fall apart because you play the game to be a great corp thief is fine. ganking 100 hulks to be the top hulk killer in the game is fine. Doing it because you relish the tears is not, in my opinion. There is no objective moral law that condemns it - it just makes you an ******* in real life.

However, things get a bit fuzzier when we consider that someone might be roleplaying a griefer and getting their satisfaction not from the tears but from successfully playing a good griefer. But I don't get the impression that this actually applies to many people in eve.

Caroll Yanaki
Gallente
Stir Crazy Research and Manufacturing
Posted - 2010.12.16 15:42:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata
Edited by: Space Pinata on 16/12/2010 11:38:31
1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course)
1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot)
2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"?


1. Never. I don't pretend to have the massive experience most of the EVE vets have, nor will I pretend to have some high pseudo-moral values that put me "above" the rest of the human race. I will simply not feel good, if I rob somebody's corp, gank a defenseless mining vessel in HS, ninja somebody's mission (just to look stupid, when I loot a wreck of his in a PvP Tengu, hoping he will shoot me back) or scam a clueless rookie, who will probably lose his last ISK over it. If I am attacked or if I am in war, in low-sec or in 0.0, in fleet, on CTA, under orders, etc., I will shoot and try to blow guys up. I love it.
1b. Without a reason to activate an offensive module, I cannot bring myself into it. Like I said in 1. - it won't make me feel good or excited.
2. "With great power comes great responsibility." - "Spiderman" movie. I believe stronger must help the lesser and protect them, safeguard them and stuff. There is a great power in mercy, compassion and decency. They will be remembered and respected by the people way longer than lies, misery and hatred you've caused. In EVE too.

fivetide humidyear
Gallente
Fool Mental Junket
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:58:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Has anyone actually been harmed by other EVE players, though? I would have thought such an event would be rather well-known and firmly established in the game history if it had happened…


few years ago I got the guy who was FC'ing our gang so annoyed he broke his trackpad by hitting it because i popped stuff before he landed on grid... OK thats more an anything harmed but c'est la vie.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:42:00 - [39]
 

There are gray areas in this game. Yes you can do douchebag things in this game which can provide evidence you are in fact a douchebag in real life. I’m sorry to say.

Discussing this on the forums (especially eve-o) is not really going to be productive. I participated in a fairly lengthy thread about this on scrapheap challenge. That wasn’t really productive either but whatever.

I don't really want to repeat everything. But it comes down to this. Those who say anything goes in game are really saying anything that CCP says is ok in game is ok. Even the “anything goes” crowd usually stop short of saying violating the EULA ok.

This means these folks morals are basically dictated by ccp's ever changing EULA. So if the EULA were to say “upon entering a system you *must* address to every character that is controlled by a black person irl by saying ‘hello n_____er’ in local chat”…. well then that’s not immoral because it’s just part of the game.

You will see many people trying to distinguish what I said above in an attempt to preserve the “EULA code of ethics. “

Some will say calling a black person that is illegal irl. Which may vary from place to place, but just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it’s immoral and vice versa. Those folks are just passing their moral responsibility on to the local legislature.

Beyond that it’s pretty tricky ground. I would say an important question is: Are you doing something unethical because you are roleplaying an unethical character (Which I would call the role player defense and it is indeed a valid defense if it is really true) or are you doing it for your own real life personal gain. If you are doing rotten things “in game” (whatever that means is talking in your normal voice on vent “in game”) for your own real life gain well then you might just be a douchebag irl.

Shiho Weitong
Caldari
Koa Mai Hoku
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:10:00 - [40]
 

1: No

1b: No

2: Moral qualms are a sign of weakness. Wink

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:24:00 - [41]
 

Well first thing slaps you right in the face when you're noob, (and you have never ben do ya?) is how players act and the conscience of what they do/say.

They often forget that, opposed to those mmo's playing in separate rounds, in Eve anything you do will bring you consequences sooner or latter.

You must be completely arrogant, stupid and selfish to no point to think a single moment that you'll never get the payback of your actions, because in eve there are so many different ways to get in the path of someone than you have to suck another one.

The point is, how far are you ready to go and assume.

Adapa Prime
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:26:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: ACY GTMI
I've thought about this a bit. I've had my share of harm done to me. I'm able to write that off as learning experiences. Some of the things I see done to others, though, make me wonder.

Sometimes I think the game should be split into two exclusive parts, one for the builders and one for the destroyers, with an interface that can only be crossed by market items.

I really don't care about PvP, one way or the other. I have a few assists, but I've never fired anything more harmful than a target painter at anyone. Kind of a fine line there between doing harm and not, but my conscience is clear(er).

It is very difficult for me to accept that some of the real twinkies in the game aren't just as screwed up in real life, though. For instance, I was once engaged by a particularly inept can flipper who said all the things the Manual For Can Flippers suggests in order to get a Retriever to fire at 'you'. He seemed to be really excited to get away with my popper stopper bookmark. Out of curiosity I checked his bio, which said that he, or she, was a pre-law student. Hmmm.

On the other hand, there's a player who I believe is Russian, hangs out on a path that I travel often, and, I think, is among the top 200 killers in the game. Three of my characters have lost ships, and, in some cases, pods, to this player in the same bottle neck system. Some more than one. It's extremely irritating to me and first thoughts are always of revenge, but I tried to look at it from their side once, and it was really depressing.

The thing it made me think of most was WW I/WW II fighter aces. I would imagine that it didn't take long for most of them to start seeing it as a job rather than an exciting experience. From some of the books written by/about some of these people, they often sympathized with the pilots they shot down, even though their cause was, to them, relatively noble.

Day after day they grabbed their brief cases and headed off to the 'office' to kill or be killed. The difference in Eve is that you get an infinite number of do-overs if you really aren't cut out for the work.

Basically, the decision to mine and manufacture is pretty easy for me after walking a few mental steps in the other person's shoes.


I agree with everything ACY said!

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:33:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Originally by: Tippia
Has anyone actually been harmed by other EVE players, though? I would have thought such an event would be rather well-known and firmly established in the game history if it had happened…


There are unverified rumours of a certain alliance member making off with the wife of the head of another certain alliance...........you know how these things go though......did he 'steal her away' or was she already on the lookout to leave........

Could that be considered 'hurt'?

Twisted Evil


Maybe the original owner of said woman didn't HTFU.

KB

Demolishar
Posted - 2010.12.16 19:00:00 - [44]
 

If I felt bad, would I do it? Why should you feel bad for playing the game anyway. If it's for in-game reasons, anything goes. True griefing only starts when you start thinking about the people behind the pixels. That's what determines whether you're being immoral or not. Everything else is just roleplay.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2010.12.16 19:12:00 - [45]
 

There's a whole scale of "bad acts" that can be committed in-game. From simply popping a WT to scamming folks in Jita, to stealing from a corp or being a plant/spy in a corp.

Heck, if you're trying to be truly altruistic, you should sell anything you manuf at cost, so as not to "steal" isk from other players.

It would be interesting to create such a list and rank them in order of 'evil-ness.'

Myself, I enter and exit the game. In-game I assume a fictional persona. Sometimes my avatar is altruistic, and sometimes it tries to exploit the weaknesses of others. After clicking "exit game" I like to think I'm a pretty ok guy.

KB
Prisoner #3258435
The Hole
San Quentin
San Quentin, CA 94964

Exordium8
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.16 19:23:00 - [46]
 

Without looking at the rest of the thread

1a) No
1b) No
2) Probably not, but then again the social conventions might differ.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.12.16 19:59:00 - [47]
 

Someone that feels harmed IRL by what happens to his internet spaceship should seek medical help asap.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:08:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata
1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility
No, because that is part of the game - taking from other people to further yourself.

Originally by: Space Pinata
1b) What about just for the sake of doing it?
I haven't ever suicide ganked someone, but I haven't once felt remorse from my acts of piracy under any circumstance. Besides, that's the role a pirate plays. Yarr!

Originally by: Space Pinata
2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this
I can't see myself blowing up someone's car and taking half of the engine parts that survive in the wreck and then going to hang out at the local 7-11 to get a Slurpee while the 15 minute APB on me wears off.

That's a really terrible question anyway. "Would you do the same thing if real life was just like Eve?" Well, sure, why not, because it would be Eve and there's no consequences. Hell, there isn't even a consequence for dying, other than getting implants and a new medical clone.

This thread is terrible. Why am I here? Confused

Cuchulain Spartan
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:11:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Cuchulain Spartan on 16/12/2010 20:13:07

On average most people I meet in Eve seem to be decent solid people regardless of their play style.

However, I have found people that seem to get an unusually high amount of pleasure and satisfaction in RL out of griefing and harassing weaker players in Eve, people who seem to make a mission out of intentionally trying to upset others by destroying their hard earned Iskies.

These people are generally the ones who comes across as completes ass's in local and when you get into teamspeak with them they are generally just as bad to talk to in person. Most of their Corpies will agree with you and even their RL friends who are in the same Corp will confirm that they are just as bad in RL.

I find these people are normally not getting enough hugs in real life and come to Eve in an attempt to inflict unhappiness on others from the safety and anonymity of their keyboard thus making them feel better about their RL troubles.

The world is full of ass's, its logical to assume that some would end up playing Eve.

Spart o/

Hegbard
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:33:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata

So, people in EVE can be pretty immoral.



There's nothing immoral in the game, there's no stealing, scamming or killing. It's all just bad analogies. Calling it those things is convenient, but there's as little scamming and stealing as there is murder.

Closer analogies (although less convenient) would be to call it scoring against your opponents like in sports. And calling the winning team in hockey immoral would be ridiculous.

Shad0wsFury
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:35:00 - [51]
 

I have never felt bad about suicide ganking anyone. In fact, when people contact me to cry about getting ganked, I usually find it hilarious, and share it with my friends, who also find it hilarious.

I have also suicide ganked people for fun when there was no clear profit to be made, although it could be argued that lulz are more precious than any internet spaceship hebrew bouillon. It's fun, I'd do it again.

Very little save some attitude carries over to real life. No, I wouldn't blow up some dude's car because they ****ed in my cheerios, but then again we all have to play by different rules and laws in real life. There are other more effective ways of asserting yourself if you are wronged in the real world.

Jaak 242
Posted - 2010.12.16 20:50:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: KaarBaak

Heck, if you're trying to be truly altruistic, you should sell anything you manuf at cost, so as not to "steal" isk from other players.



What an odd concept. Except that I do something very much like this. In RL I considered 15% a reasonable profit. I've carried that concept on into the game. It really irks the marketeers.

Hmm. Maybe I'm harming them.

Nah. Wink

Space Pinata
Amarr
Discount Napkin Industries
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:00:00 - [53]
 

Some pretty interesting responses. I guess it (for most people) comes down to whether or not you see ganking another player as harmful to that player.

I would say it is, myself, just because you have whatever objective you had in the game ruined. The sports analogies don't work, because EVE isn't split into two teams. Furthermore, no one really sticks to their enemies (reds).

So it's really more like playing hockey and then suddenly getting checked by someone from a team not involved in the game, in a league where that is allowed for some silly reason, and taking it -that- far the analogy is just too twisted to be relevant.

As to the raegers: It's funny to me that I've manage to get -both- carebears and pvpers angry with the same posts. Without even trying. Some people are just looking for any sign of hostility and assigning all the worst flaws of character they can think of to anyone they (perceive) to disagree with them.

If you flip out so handily at the implication that what you're doing may be immoral, it implies to me that you do in fact have second thoughts about it, which you're trying to drown out.

It's just a game, yes, but not in the same sense as most others.

Lets take, say, Counter-Strike as an example. If you get mad because the other team shoots you, that'd be silly.

Most people get mad when their -own- team shoots them, though.

No one would say killing enemies in TF2 is wrong. Placing a teleporter that traps people somewhere (or other forms of griefing), however..

And that's sort of what sets EVE apart. You're not always attacking the other team. Very often, you're attacking random neutrals. The 'goal' of the game is not to blow up as many random people as possible. There is no goal. There is no 'winning' except what you make for yourself.

So, if the goal you make for yourself is 'blow up lots of strangers'..

I'm not going to say there's anything wrong with it. To me, it doesn't satisfy though, as much as I love PVP.

As for the 'pixels' argument.. irrelevant. If someone came and deleted a save-file on a game, or vandalized a digital picture you'd been working on, etc etc... these too are just 'pixels'. No one cares about the 'pixels'.

They care about the time and effort they put into them, and the inconvenience caused by having whatever it is they were doing ruined.

I don't mind losing a PVP ship, because I was trying to PVP. But I get paranoid about loss when flying PVE ships. It's like that. It's unfortunate that there's no way to really PVP without acting like kind of a ****.


clamslayer
Posted - 2010.12.17 00:58:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: clamslayer on 17/12/2010 01:11:57
Edited by: clamslayer on 17/12/2010 00:58:32
I play eve for two reasons:

1. to take as much isk/assets away from other players by any means
2. to make as much isk as possible playing the market and ****ing other players over, if i make someone quit the game its a good day

if anyone feels bad, i understand why. eve is different than other games in that it takes time to make isk. i have made 1 billion isk for 30 minutes of work, based on how i made this billion isk, i know that the player i took it from spent hour after hour playing eve to make it. was it wrong for me to do this to this player? better question, do i give a ****? NO.

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:05:00 - [55]
 

Do you feel bad when you're running down a corrider in Halo and you simulate-murder a player on the opposing team? Like literally, you are for all intents and purposes murdering another human being. Sure, they don't actually die, but the entire process is there; you pulling the trigger, your bullet/laser/whatever penetrating into their flesh, tearing through internal organs and rupturing arties, severing tendons and muscles...

NO YOU DON'T FEEL BAD STFU


Frito11
Invicta.
Posted - 2010.12.17 01:13:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Frito11 on 17/12/2010 01:14:08
as a former pirate and long time PVP only player

1. No.

1b. sometimes you get bored and what to see things blow up. it happens. doing for tears is also a great motivation.

2. if it was allowed and all the rules were as they are in eve, sure why not. its done to make money. no other reason. kind of like insurance fraud but its legal.

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.17 02:07:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Space Pinata

1) Do you ever feel bad about harming another player with no reason for hostility, IE, robbing a random stranger for profit? (In game, of course)


Never done it. I have a character flaw in that I'm constitutionally incapable of doing "evil" things, even in a game. I know, I know, I should seek therapy.

Quote:
1b) ..What about just for the sake of doing it? (Say, suicide ganking a random hulk you don't even care to loot)


Nope, never done it, never would. All my in-game and out-of game acts are as moral as I can make them.

Quote:
2) Is it only the context of EVE being a game that allows this, or would you behave the same way in the real world, assuming no one could die (thus, only property/financial damage) and the consequences would be more like "Lower sec status" and "Loss of property" and not, yknow "prison"?


According to the general punditry, it's anonymity and lack of permadeath on the internet or in games that does the trick. There's simply no really significant cost to behaving immorally on the internet or in games like there (generally) is in real life.

On a related note, the EVE universe is quite absurd, in fact: no technologically advanced civilizations could exist with that degree of day-in, day-out violence. No insurance companies would insure someone who had a record of blowing up their ships with such frequency and gay abandon, no crews would serve (unless robotized slaves) for such pilots, no matter how good the pay. Theocratic fascist states like Amarr couldn't exist for that length of time with that degree of high technology when faced with competition from more liberal democractic states like the Gallente, etc., etc., etc. (Curiously, the state of the game in earlier days, with Gallente pwning all, was marginally more true to life than the situation today.) Etc., etc., etc.

But of course it is, as they say, just a game Laughing

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:17:00 - [58]
 

don't scam, by choice, but think about it.
i would NOT feel bad about it.
It's a game,
a) immature kids shouldnt be playing
b) over emotional adults shouldn't be playing
c) the entire human race is riddled with "immoralities"- See catholic church history for some epic lols.

Yes i would do it in real life to a degree, who am i screwing? big companies that have more money then they know what to do with? or the poor or working man?
I'd take a chunk of Apple's money in a heartbeat,

Keta Fraal
Nul and Booleans
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:18:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Shiho Weitong


2: Moral qualms are a sign of weakness. Wink


I know you are just kidding, but it should be observed that this sort of comment is rather common because it is born out of the underlying desire to remain a child eternally. This phenomenon is not new and though you jest, we all spend more than a few moments in our day in this fantasy; especially flying internet spaceships.

Drakarin
Gallente
Absentia Libertas Solus
Posted - 2010.12.17 03:55:00 - [60]
 

Who you are is defined by your actions in life. If you take pleasure in causing others misery in EvE online, you would take pleasure in doing so in real life as well, and would do so if there were no consequences. Most people wouldn't kill, but the typical griefer would be an immoral person in real life if there were no barriers.

Now if you do pirate, but feel bad about hurting others, and really just want to do it for the fun (not trying to do the most damage to the other) it's a different story.

Truth be told, humans are just civilized animals. We have rules in place to prevent us from going wild, but trust me, if the normal order decays, if food and water become scarce, if the government were to collapse.. the world would fall very swiftly into chaos.


Pages: 1 [2] 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only