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blankseplocked A proposed change to ECM.
 
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Anyura
Posted - 2010.12.16 09:46:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Anyura
So help me, if this is frog0ut posting on an alt, I'm going to hire 10 falcon pilots to permajam you for the next 3 months.

Actually, after re-reading the OP, this seems too well-thought to be him. Interesting idea but might cut a little close to Sensor Damping.


So is the OP frog0ut or not? Do I need to head to C&P and start looking for Falcon pilots? Would be grateful if someone could clear this up for me.

MegabitOne
Caldari
The Black Ops
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:08:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Arguments


+1

ECM is the most specialized type of EW. To get a reliable ECM boat you have to dedicate the entire ship to this job. And I talk about ships with ECM bonus already! As soon as you start to try some other stuff with said ships (Rook -> damage) you loose ECM power.

And as you (OP) said...missing an ECM cycle means you have no EW at all - not some less or 50%...


+1

I concur with this. I find it always striking that people who are jammed always find reasons to say jamming is overpowered. It isn't. No one ever died from being jammed. OK, so you can't lock anything? Tough luck! It is the only thing a jammer can do: hope and pray the stuff he trained up to perfection (speaking for me personally) works. I haven't trained months on end to be able to jam, anyone can get Electronics I and Electronic Warfare I. No Sir, I trained to turn the jamming God's throw of the dice a bit more in my favor.

As already disussed in many other threads, the most useful counter measures are:
warp out
fly away
launch drones
launch FoF missiles
fit ECCM
fit ECM Burst
launch bombs
jam the jammer with another boat
hope the jammer gets tired of having you locked but can't kill you
call in the cavalry
...
any of the above you can do without having to lock the jammer...

afkalt
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:21:00 - [33]
 

Fly EWAR boats: Where a DRAW is the best you can hope for.


More seriously, most people seem to be overlooking the fact to reliably jam anything which is actually dangerous on the field requires multiple jammers. Which means you either fit substandard multispecs or you gamble and hope you luck out or you take a rainbow fit and have mid level jamming capabilities.

You know, gambling...like how you gamble with ECCM. Except you dont need to guess type with that.

Its not always greener on the other side folks and trust me, a properly fitted, dedicated EWAR boat which misses a cycle is toast.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:26:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 16/12/2010 12:27:10
Edited by: Target Painter on 16/12/2010 12:26:58
50M to anyone who EVEmails me a fr0gout KM with at least 2 ECM ships, dated today until the next week. API verified.

Rocky Grinder
Posted - 2010.12.16 12:49:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 16/12/2010 12:27:10
Edited by: Target Painter on 16/12/2010 12:26:58
50M to anyone who EVEmails me a fr0gout KM with at least 2 ECM ships, dated today until the next week. API verified.


LOL at this.... please share the results of this fine offer!

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:25:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: CCP Spitfire
Personal attacks removed. Please keep the discussion civil.

You missed a few, bro.

Also,
Originally by: frog0ut
I wager, you saw my name in the "last reply" field, and then came into this thread to flame me and harrass me because you're mentally unstable and get all emotional when you see one of my posts.

This.

P.S. Dear Corporal Punishment08: The fact that you've posted a wall of text that is utterly irrelevant, tried to lend it authority by posting it twice, and threatened "I'm going to keep posting this until you guys agree with me" is pathetic. Grow up.



The wall of text is not irrelevent, it has everything to do with why ECM is perfectly fine and belongs in this game, which is what this thread is about. The reason I threatened to keep posting it was because there were a few people who posted things that I already explained. Read all before posting.

Everyone's trying to find out where ECM fits in this game. ECM is it's own entity, and it's exclusive to Caldari. Get over it. Every other race has an advantage by not having to use missiles and shields, and by being able to Solo PvP quite effectively. Caldari are a race of numbers. In fleet fights, Caldari are good, but so are all other races. Solo? Choose any other race. Give us somethin here.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:45:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: fr0gout
Edited by: fr0gout on 16/12/2010 07:06:10
I am not saying "it is not an advantage to be unprobable" I am saying, it doesn't provide any direct combat advantages. You're in a gang and you're fighting another gang, or you're solo and you're fighting someone. It doesn't provide any benefits in a scenario where ECM is on the field, or off the field. If anything it is an "anti" combat bonus which people use in Niche scenarios to make themselves completely unprobable. It provides no on the field advantage, unless you're talking about 4 ECCM Sniper Machariels with Proteus/Loki links so they cannot be warped on top of by probes, which is a very narrow and niche role.


Fair enough, but the OP said ECCM have no secondary advantage. They clearly do. It's just no like every other anti-ewar module. Just like ECM is not like any other Ewar module.
Originally by: fr0gout

I am not complaining about Falcons in 1vs1 scenarios (quite franky it is dumb, and there is literally nothing which can beat Falcon/Rook in 1vs1 except for some totally ridicilious fits with 5x ECCM and heavy damage with no tank. I also think there are plenty of scenarios where you can kill a random t2 cruiser, but can't kill a Rook or Falcon. I am talking about ECM's impact on small gangs.


First of all, if you've flown a ECM ship, you would know the DPS is pathetic. I've tried to use ECM boats solo, and yeah, I get the target Jammed, and locked down, but they can outrun me, and they can outtank me in anything bigger than a Frigate anyways. And if it's a frigate, my little 3 missile launchers really don't hit for much damage. Also, in 1vs1, you don't need 5 ECCM modules, you only need 1.

Originally by: fr0gout

Tracking Disruption is different to ECM, because I can do other things which don't require tracking or range in my ship. I can still remote repair my buddies, shoot them with missiles, I can still lock and target, and command my drones to whom I want, I can still active ewar modules, I can still activate energy neuts, NOS, I can still shoot targets that are close to me, or aren't moving fast... You can fit ECM on combat ships too, although Tracking Disruptor is more of a generalist module which can find its way on more PVP setups.


So consider ECM a counter to Remote Repping.


Originally by: fr0gout

On the statement of fun. I feel that someone using a tracking disruptor to beat me a lot more fun and challeging. Someone used a specific module against my ship (which doesn't stop drones/missiles, or a many of other things) to counter me, and they played that module to it's strengths, either by fitting to go under my guns while im tracking disrupted, or to range disrupt me and kite me. I feel like he out played me and he should be rewarded for that. When it comes to ECM however, it seems more like HurrDurr I pressed a button on your ship, and it worked, so I win. There really is very little strategy when it comes to ECM, other than fitting whatever racial jammers they have.



Getting beat is getting beat. How do you have more fun dying one way than dying another way? You're still dead. This is reaching for an argument at best. Also, welcome to Caldari. You press a button and stuff happens. With missiles, you press your (Hopefully) grouped missiles, and they all fire. With shields, you press your shield booster and hardeners, and that's it. Caldari are easy to use, but ineffective solo. This probably plays in to the back story abit. Advantage in numbers and corporations, cutting edge of design.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:01:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: fr0gout
My main complaint is that the best counter to ECM, is to bring your own ECM. If I'm in a 10 man gang, and the enemy has a 10 man gang, with 2 falcons. My response is, we need to have 2 Falcons of our own, rather than, lets all fit ECCM on our ships so that we can 6vs8 them, rather than 4vs8 them... It seems like there is no 'direct' counter to it, other than bringing it yourself. I could fit ECCM. However, I end up losing effectiveness on a per ship basis for doing that. Bringing Falcon of your own > Fitting ECCM on your ships almost all the time. If I see a gang with 2 Tracking Disruption ships, I can say, ok we'll bring Drakes, or we'll bring Drone ships, or ok, lets all fit a Tracking Computer, with ECM in a small gang environment, it is always better to just bring your own ecm.



You lose effectiveness on a per ship basis, fair enough. However, each ship only has to give up 1 slot each to fit an ECCM module. The other gang had to give up 2 full ships to bring ECM. On top of that, if you even brought 1 Falcon, jammed both of their falcons, then primaried their falcons, wouldn't you look like the hero. ECM is a strategy. You need a counter strategy.

Originally by: fr0gout

I have actually only made 4 threads, One about the best alt to counter ECM, which was incredibly constructive and I didn't flame anyone, and I read every single constructive post, and all of my threads aside from my initial spam thread had about 4 parapgrahs of why I felt ECM was overpowered. I am also not demanding ECM to be nerfed, I am asking for CCP to review and discuss ECM. I will not address the end of your post as it is a straw-man argument.


You still have a reputation of loosing your temper and ignoring everything someone said because there was a little insult in their response. And 4 threads on the same subject gets annoying. Why do you need whole new threads? Go to your old ones and continue on.

The reason we suspect all other ECM threads as being from your alts are because for 1, THIS thread was started by a character thta has been in the same NPC corp for 1 year and 6 months, since the character's creation, usually the sign of an alt. You also went and used an alt "frog0ut", when your main character wasn't allowed to post, so you've done it before. And 2, they all contain the same argument as all of your threads, worded very similar to your threads.

CCP has reviewed and discussed ECM quite extensively, and yes they have nerfed ECM several times.

My argument about autocannons was valid. I am faced with adversity when my skills were not good enough, so I trained to counter. That's what you do in this game, because no matter how good you are, there's someone out there that's better, so you need to find out what they're doing, and either counter it or do the same.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:36:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: fr0gout

I don't think ECM is was really 'nerfed' it was made so it wasn't effective on non-caldari specced ships, as the default utility midslot choice was a multispec and it made combat stale. Caldari are actually very good right now (compared to Gallente), See Drake, Cerb, Rook, Raven, Caracal etc.

You forgot Tengu ;) Cerberus? Same DPS as a Drake at a much further range. Up close, paper tank. Useless.
Raven, GREAT PvE ship, not bad PVP in the right role, but not viable Solo again. Caracal? Good T1 cruiser, but there are much better T1 cruisers. Rook? paper thin tank, low DPS.

And yes, ECM has been nerfed several times. I don't know them all, but someone listed all ECM nerfs in one of your previous threads. There were 3 or 4 major ones.

Originally by: fr0gout

While I somewhat agree on Tracking Disruptors and Target Painters having a more general use, Damps are pure ****, even on the specialised ships. And having a single unbonused damp is often completely worthless. Target Painters and Tracking Disruptors are fairly light forms of ewar anyway, they either reduce your ability to evade damage (TP) or make it so a specific weapon group is less effective (TD), ECM is complete total shutdown. The Rook is pretty awesome anyway, and makes a really good hard to jam DPS ship with 7 mids, even if you don't fit any ECM on it. The Falcon has a fairly Narrow Role, but then again so does the Pilgrim tbh.


Having a single unbonused ECM module is completely worthless as well. All ships have a pretty narrow role. While some can be adapted, many cannot.
Originally by: fr0gout

Well thats not completely true, they work 100% in their optimal ranges, which is all smaller than ECM. And it's not 100% chance based, as it always works on someone who has less sensor strength than your ECM strength, and a Maxed Falcon with 2x SDA and 1 medium strength rig has >14 strength, which enables it to jam over half the ships in the game without any eccm module fitted, permantely.


ECM does not work 100% of the time, I can tell you this with confidence, having fallen victim to this train of thought myself. Someone has addressed this point in a previous thread of yours. I'm not familiar with the numbers that were used, but the conclusion was that this did not include "half the ships" in the game. And again, even if your jam strength is greater than their sensor strength, there's still a chance you lose your jam.

Originally by: fr0gout

This is because ECM is so powerful. It's such a powerful and overwhelming mechanic that it requires a ship to sacrifice everything in order to be able to completely eliminate several ships from the battlefield. It's balanced, but it's not fun. You seem to find that the ships not having any other combat utility, unfun, despite claiming you enjoy jamming people. This is part and product of ECM being balanced. Would you enjoy ECM more if it was a lessened effect but the ECM ships using it got buffed up and increased combat utility?


No, I like the ship having 1 specific and elite role. I wouldn't want a buff to ECM ships tank or DPS in exchance for less ECM. Any less ECM strength and I wouldn't bother flying ECM boats. They don't get flown now much as it is.

I didn't say other ships are not fun, not once.

You agree it's balanced, people who fly ECM agree that it's fun. I don't see a problem here.
Originally by: fr0gout

Most ECM ships can fit a 1600 plate (Rook, Falcon, Blackbird, Scorpion), It's not that easy to remove ECM ships from the field. Even if you happen to get... say 20x valkrie IIs on the ship, it still has about 20-30 seconds before it pops

This is incorrect. 20 Valkyries would annihiliate any ECM boat, minus a Scorpion. Also, you can not fit 1600mm plates on any ECM ship other than a Scorpion. 1600mm rolled Tungsten plates use 500mw. A Falcon has 700mw and a rook has 600mw. 4200 extra hps, no speed mod, no dps, lessened jamming strength...

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:52:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: fr0gout

Except for the fact that it isn't just "1 slot" it is 1 slot from your entire gang, which can add up. In the example of a 10 man gang, that's 10 slots from gang, to on average, half the effectiveness of a Falcon. In a 10vs10(2 Falcon) Scenario, fitting my gang with ECCM on average, means I go from 5-6 ships jammed to about 2-3 ships jammed. At the cost of a lot of utility modules, and I'm still getting ships jammed, in a lot of scenarios, it is better to simply bring your own Falcon. And lets assume that by fitting 1 ECCM to all my ships, you suddenly can't get any jams, do you not think that by forcing me to waste mid slots on my ship that you're not having an effect on me? Also, a lot of ship roles cannot afford ECCM (interceptors, nano HACs, etc.).

If you're THIS worried about falcons, bring along 2-3 sniper HACs fitted with ECCM modules. Problem solved. Now you've only used up 2-3 mid slots, and you get 2-3 Falcon killmails. Pretty sweet for 2-3 slots. Also, what would you do if you encountered a sniper gang instead of a gang with 2-3 Falcons? 10vs10 can be so many different scenarios. What if they were 10 RRing Tengus? You wouldn't even get a single km to their 10. Does this mean RRing Tengus should be changed? ECM would be your best friend in that scenario I'll tell ya that much.

Obviously, forcing you to waste 1 slot per ship would have an effect on you. As is with all other counters to Ewar. Is there even a counter to Target painting? Pretty good bonuses from TPing for there not being a counter to it.

Originally by: fr0gout


On the big fleet fight thing, I think this is true of everything. It's a lot easier to coordinate between you and another falcon pilot, to keep 5-6 ships locked down in a fleet fight, and maybe have to deal with 4 ships which can potentially hurt you, to trying to coordinate with 9 other ECM pilots, with 20 ships which can potentially harm you, as well as it being difficult to communicate, the chances of being alpha'd etc. are much higher. In larger gangs, people often have decentralised tackle, i.e. people are bring interceptors, dictors, etc. so fitting tackle on your BS/BCs is less of a priority which frees up slots. Damps/TDs are also not really used in big fleet fights for the same reason.


You missed the point. ECM is not used in big fleet fights because they get primaried, because they have 1 role, and no tank. The role is very effective yes, which is why they get primaried. ECM ships usually get popped before they are able to be very effective. So instead of having a Pilot lose an ECM ship, warp off the battlefield to their home station, grab another ECm boat, fly all the way back, then get primaried again, get popped, etc etc, it's easier to just have that 1 pilot fit up a ship that deals dps and has tank, to be able to stay on the battlefield longer.

So in conclusion, we can see that ECM boats are useless in fleet fights, useless in 1vs1, and CAN be effective in small gang setups. Sounds like a pretty narrow role for an already narrow roled ship. maybe it's time for an ECM buff?

fr0gout
The Scope
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:56:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Corporal Punishment08

Originally by: fr0gout

Most ECM ships can fit a 1600 plate (Rook, Falcon, Blackbird, Scorpion), It's not that easy to remove ECM ships from the field. Even if you happen to get... say 20x valkrie IIs on the ship, it still has about 20-30 seconds before it pops

This is incorrect. 20 Valkyries would annihiliate any ECM boat, minus a Scorpion. Also, you can not fit 1600mm plates on any ECM ship other than a Scorpion. 1600mm rolled Tungsten plates use 500mw. A Falcon has 700mw and a rook has 600mw. 4200 extra hps, no speed mod, no dps, lessened jamming strength...


Thats BEFORE skills... it is quite possible to fit MWD and a 1600 the Falcon, and Blackbird. I will show you the ship setups that I use.

[Blackbird, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I
Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I


Fits with 656/721 grid left, and 316/500 CPU left. If you don't care at all about the highslots at all, you can drop the powergrid Rig for another ECM range rig and it will fit with less than 1 grid spare.




[Falcon, New Setup 1]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II
ECM - White Noise Generator II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I


Warrior II x2

This Falcon fits with (659 / 875 - Powergrid) (394 / 625 - CPU)

I'll admit that the Rook struggles to fit a 1600 as well as its primary weapon (heavy missile launcher) though. Kind of weird that the Rook which needs to fit more weapons, and is more weapon focused has less powergrid. I guess thats a discussion for a different topic though

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:57:00 - [42]
 

I will also add that the OP has not posted since making this thread, which further adds to the speculation that he is an alt, possibley of yours.

You should learn to get past the flames and address other posts as well, instead of getting in to it with those people. In the end, it does make you look worse. Not flaming, just sayin...
But I want to commend you fr0gout for addressing all my points in a respectable manner.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:01:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
1600mm rolled Tungsten plates use 500mw. A Falcon has 700mw and a rook has 600mw. 4200 extra hps, no speed mod, no dps, lessened jamming strength...


I suppose I should've said "Take your pick". You have to sacrifice some of that stuff in order to fit a mere 4200 armour HPs. I would rather keep any form of DPS to deal with tackle, and fit the signal distortion amplifiers in the lows, than have slightly higher HPs with low resists.

I have many ECM fits I use, but for anything below a scorpion, I don't bother fitting a tank.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2010.12.16 18:10:00 - [44]
 

One more thing, sorry for all the text.

We haven't even taken in to account racial vs multispec jammers. What if your Falcon has 4 racial jammers, and you run in to a 8 man drake crew. Falcon gets primaried and crashes and burns, while only really effectively jamming 1 ship. Kind of a waste of 90 mil. Now if you have 4 multispecs, your chance of jamming ships is reduced quite a bit with the lowered strength of multispecs. Kind of reduces ECM ships even more eh?


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