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Dabusiness
Posted - 2011.01.20 02:49:00 - [31]
 

@Floydd

Things to quickly learn about Guardians: they normally orbit between 35-42km from you. Therefore you will need to use Curator sentry drones. If you are in a wormhole with no damage bonuses (like mine) with 11 curators - under 500 DPS. Takes c. 18-20mins to kill a guardian solo. Hence the reason I was using a Moros to give me real damage. If you are fielding 1500 DPS then you should take down a Guardian in under 5 mins. With the right fit...you can make an archon cap stable for 1 escalation (implants will help alot).
With the fleet you are fielding, just include a couple of armor tanking scorps and you will be fine....if you can take a few guardians out by jamming them you are laughing...

Generally the sleepers will only target 1 ship at a time, as long as you monitor the targets changing and switch the reps you should manage ok.

I still have alot of work to do to test the neuting...so i'll let you know how i get on.

Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.01.20 08:24:00 - [32]
 

Thanks Smile You use Sentries solo because fighters would draw aggro and die I take it? If sleepers treat fighters like other drones that shouldn't be an issue when several ships are present, especially if some do RR and jamming. Hunting in a C3 with two remote-repping chars I almost never get aggro on my drones. In fact I lose a drone now and then just because it's so rare that I don't pay attention to my drones anymore.

Dabusiness
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:03:00 - [33]
 

The reason for sentries is they don't need to move....Guardians will melt Fighters before they can even get into range and at c.10m ISK a pop for fighters...you will be eating into the profit margins pretty quick.

Solo I would lose c.200 curators against 6 guardians. The more ships that are present, the less drones that seem to get lost.

The other thing I would advise is doing plenty of homework on your wormhole when you find one unoccupied. Work out what type of wormhole the static wormhole is...you ideally want a c1-c4 static. Your tactics once in it, will be based on wormhole type.

Hope that helps.

Mr BeanCounter
United Miners Inc.
Wrath.
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:18:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Floydd Heywood
@Mr beancounter: You seem to be experienced in C5 so maybe you can help me assess whether my plans are valid... I plan to move into a C5 with my corp and we haven't done C5s before (yeah, bad time to start with the sleeper neut coming).


nope, i think its as good of a time as any, what with sleeper loot prices on the rise and all

Quote:
What we intend to do is use one carrier (Archon) as anchor in a small armor-tanking fleet. It has three Capital RRs and is supposed to do all the repping. As a safeguard against the neuting we bring in a Guardian logistics fitted with only Cap Transfers. The Archon has one large energy transfer array dedicated to the Guardian and a capital ETA to refill other drained ships as needed.



yes, my own corp will implement this immediately, as i hadnt thought of it. great idea.

We will also have a command ship with maximum bonus for armored warfare to support repping and armor amounts.

Quote:
Other ships will be just additional damage with (hopefully) enough buffer to survive the sleeper's alpha strike and good resists to have enough defense with the three Capital RRs on them. I aimed for 60k+ Armor EHP and 5500+ defense here (do you think this is enough?).



5500 is enough, but just barely. aim for more resists to make it a bit more comfy. with my guys i like to see all 80% resist and above, you should aim for the same.

Quote:
I was quite sure this should be safe until I read this:
Quote:
I have to multi carrier in a Wolf rayet as with no damage bonuses it takes 20mins to kill 1 guardian with 1 carrier.

I assume your carrier does at least 1000 DPS, maybe close to 1500? We won't be in a wolf-rayet, but that still seems like a long time for a single sleeper BS. My setup was planned such that the carrier keeps the subcaps alive but only has about 3400 defense itself. I thought that and the 1.4m hitpoint buffer would be enough to survive until the sleeper wave has been decimated to the point where the incoming damage is below that threshold.


no you will need tank more like 5500+ like the subcaps, or they will break you fast

Quote:
We will be fielding about 3000 DPS, maybe 5000 if everyone is present. Do you think this can kill the guardians fast enough for the carrier to survive the intial onslaught? Note that we will have "only" one capital escalation wave.


sure, absolutely

Quote:
Also, who will get most of the aggro? The repping carrier? The energy-transferring Guardian? Would it be possible to draw most of the aggro to a battleship using some ECMs?


at first, they will prmary different people one by one or at random, if they cant break a target they will split aggro. the neuts work the same no doubt. they are smart and will look for a ***** in your armor.

and yes, sleepers get the bonus in wolf rayet, like every other system*
true story, time a guardian to die in two systems and compare, or watch rr frigs rep eachother like hero in cataclysmic

(*) some exceptions are said to apply, like sig radius in a pulsar. some guy published his findings on it last year, but i cant seem to find it atm. my data seems to also support that claim.

EBC James
Eve Bank of Commerce
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:22:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Dabusiness
The reason for sentries is they don't need to move....Guardians will melt Fighters before they can even get into range and at c.10m ISK a pop for fighters...you will be eating into the profit margins pretty quick.

Solo I would lose c.200 curators against 6 guardians. The more ships that are present, the less drones that seem to get lost.

The other thing I would advise is doing plenty of homework on your wormhole when you find one unoccupied. Work out what type of wormhole the static wormhole is...you ideally want a c1-c4 static. Your tactics once in it, will be based on wormhole type.

Hope that helps.


if he can do class 5, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connection?

he also has caps, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connections? to not fit his capitals through them? Razz

youve not much idea what your talking about, its ok

Mr BeanCounter
United Miners Inc.
Wrath.
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:24:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Floydd Heywood
Thanks Smile You use Sentries solo because fighters would draw aggro and die I take it? If sleepers treat fighters like other drones that shouldn't be an issue when several ships are present, especially if some do RR and jamming. Hunting in a C3 with two remote-repping chars I almost never get aggro on my drones. In fact I lose a drone now and then just because it's so rare that I don't pay attention to my drones anymore.


i use fighters in my plexes all the time, works great

Dabusiness
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:52:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: EBC James
Originally by: Dabusiness
The reason for sentries is they don't need to move....Guardians will melt Fighters before they can even get into range and at c.10m ISK a pop for fighters...you will be eating into the profit margins pretty quick.

Solo I would lose c.200 curators against 6 guardians. The more ships that are present, the less drones that seem to get lost.

The other thing I would advise is doing plenty of homework on your wormhole when you find one unoccupied. Work out what type of wormhole the static wormhole is...you ideally want a c1-c4 static. Your tactics once in it, will be based on wormhole type.

Hope that helps.


if he can do class 5, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connection?

he also has caps, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connections? to not fit his capitals through them? Razz

youve not much idea what your talking about, its ok


He wants a static c1-c4 for easier routes to hisec and also for a source of things to do when not all corp members are available....its nice to be able to just get a t3 gang or something together and run some easier sites. Nothing kills corp spirit faster than being stuck in the wormhole and not being able to do anything.

I know exactly what i'm talking about...i've lived in my c5 for a year. I chose one with a static c5 which in hindsight wasn't the greatest decision in the world. I get 1 direct hisec wormhole a month and if i can be bothered i look for routes to hisec via the static if I'm in need of something urgently.

Dabusiness
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:56:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Mr BeanCounter
Originally by: Floydd Heywood
Thanks Smile You use Sentries solo because fighters would draw aggro and die I take it? If sleepers treat fighters like other drones that shouldn't be an issue when several ships are present, especially if some do RR and jamming. Hunting in a C3 with two remote-repping chars I almost never get aggro on my drones. In fact I lose a drone now and then just because it's so rare that I don't pay attention to my drones anymore.


i use fighters in my plexes all the time, works great


In c5/c6 or c3/4? I initially tried fighters but got fed up of them dying so fast, Sentries were easier and if you want to stop the guardians popping them really quickly, u just pull them in, wait for them to target the carrier again and redeploy. Any tips/tricks for using fighters?

Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.01.20 13:52:00 - [39]
 

Interesting tips here. I'm sure there are many ways to do it, as there should be.

Sleeper threat evaluation is ECM>RR>Drones>Damage (not sure where Energy Transfer fits in because it wasn't necessary until now). This is known and also confirmed from my own experience. If I do a C3 site with only my battleship, it's not worth using drones because they are killed quicker than I can release new ones. After I switched to using a battleship/logistics team repping each other however, drones get virtually no aggro. Actually none whatsoever in three of the four C3 anomalies, only the sleepers in Solar Cell do target drones occasionally.

So fighters should be safe when using at least two ships with the carrier repping UNLESS the sleeper AI discriminates between normal drones and fighters. This is the part I cannot confirm from own experience as I haven't used fighters yet.



Originally by: EBC James
if he can do class 5, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connection?


Actually I will prefer a C2 connection for our first C5 experiences. The reason is that I am the only capital pilot in my corp and the others couldn't do C5 sites without me, at least in the near future. So I will set up the C5 as a kind of hunter's camp. When there are sites and enough corp mates are available we'll make the trip to the C5 and do sites, just a quick shuttle trip through HiSec and the C2. At other times we'll be in our current w-space which offers more regular pvp opportunities.


Originally by: Mr BeanCounter
no you will need tank more like 5500+ like the subcaps, or they will break you fast


My calculations went like this: If the sleepers do 6000 dps initially and I can repair only 3400 dps, that means I'm bleeding 2600 EHP per second. I have a buffer of about 1m shields and armor (obviously I don't want to suffer hull damage on a regular basis).

So my buffer should last for 6-7 minutes assuming that the carrier gets all the aggro all the time (which is unlikely, right?) and no sleepers are killed. But actually it should last longer because we will start reducing the sleeper damage right away. One Sleepless Guardian does 650 dps, so when we have killed four of them the Archon should be able to perma-tank the remaining damage, potential cap problems aside.

So this is my theory. If there's a flaw in it please point it out :) For the first time I intend to have a second Guardian logi with RRs in reserve, but I hope that will not be needed. Obviously with limited personnel we don't want to assign more members to support duties than necessary and concentrate on increasing damage output instead.

Delta Bacat
Posted - 2011.01.20 14:25:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Delta Bacat on 20/01/2011 14:29:34
Noob question about Dreads and the siege module:

Would a Phoenix with 3 launchers of any type in siege be like:

3*1.25*7.25 = 27.2 launchers?
Launchers * Dread skill bonus * Siege Module?

So including SML, HAM etc. cause for some reason, that seems funny to me.

Edit: Ah, didn't see the 60& explosion velocity... kinda screws up any fun to be had that way.

Anthal
The Warp Squad
Deadly Unknown
Posted - 2011.01.20 17:44:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: EBC James
if he can do class 5, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connection?

he also has caps, why on earth would he want class 1-4 connections? to not fit his capitals through them? Razz

youve not much idea what your talking about, its ok


You can usually only fit 3 capitals through the biggest wormholes. That's not 3 out, and 3 back, that's 3 total. It's highly unlikely you'll be farming capital escalations in your static. In a C5 with a C3 static, you still have the ability to make a good bit of cash from the static with a small gang, or even solo, plus an easier way to get goods/people/supplies from K-space. You would get your caps in from random direct LS/NS links, or even by building them in system. There are still plenty of people who have a C5/C6 with a static C5/C6, but a lower class is easier for most people, especially after the neuting change.

Incartes
Posted - 2011.02.13 10:36:00 - [42]
 

Tried this today to see if it still works the same after the patch and i warped in at 300k and they MWD out to me and never bounced back like previous posts have mentioned so this may have been fixed now.


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