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Kuikiker
WALLTREIPERS
Posted - 2010.12.14 09:46:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Kuikiker on 14/12/2010 09:46:35
"Hundreds of TRIAL accounts are banned every week for macro use and other RMT related activities"

Fixed.

I want to see some data about those hundreds banned accounts CCP brag about, because I guess most of them were just trial accounts spamming ISK selling sites in Jita.

I'm sick of seeing ratting/mining bots and reporting them seems useless.

I'm really considering leaving the game... legit players cannot compete with that many cheaters out there.

ZERO TOLERANCE must be applied to cheaters. No warnings at all... Cheat = Ban
And if it's possible even trace cheaters down and ban all their accounts.
Banning just their bot account is silly because they will gladly create another one with generated profits.


Silen Boon
Posted - 2010.12.14 09:55:00 - [122]
 

I’m a little disappointed with the Dev Blog; I don’t believe that it really addresses any of the players concerns.

The original Unholy Rage was very successful at banning a significant number of accounts that were using macros. This had a very clear effect on the Eve economy, and is evidence of the impact that automated “play” has on the game.

I suspect that these early macros were fairly crude, easy to spot, and simple to disrupt. This type of simple automation can be partially policed by the player base; either through game play (blowing up ships) or by reporting offenders to CCP.

There is now anecdotal evidence that the automation has moved beyond simple macros, to “bots” that can react to a changing environment. This allows the automation to be run in far more complex and dynamic situations i.e. 0.0 space. Unlike the early macros, these bots are far harder for the player base to police. One simple reason for this is the locations where these bots appear to be run; 0.0 doesn’t have the diverse player population that could report possible offenders.

Since the player base is not able to police the new wave of automation, either by game play or reporting suspect characters, the onus if now on CCP to investigate, report, and react. It is no longer acceptable to rely on the player base to report the use of macros or bots.

So what is to be done?

I would like to see CCP investigate the anecdotal evidence and hopefully produce another Dev blog with their conclusions.

If wide spread use of macros and bots is found then I think there are a number of things that CCP could do.:-
Account banning is the most obvious short term action.
Employing a team to investigate unusual account behaviour and system characteristics would deter future abuses.
Making Alliances and Corps more accountable maybe an option to reduce macros use.

There are also game play changes that might reduce the use of macros and bots and improve the user experience. Removing “local” has been suggested, but I think this would only be a short term solution. However the wormhole game mechanics is a good source for ideas. The more dynamic the environment, the harder it becomes to automate tasks.

Darth Felin
Posted - 2010.12.14 09:57:00 - [123]
 

This is not devblog but a pile of bull****. No hard data, no actual actions even against obvious bots. No injection protection and it seems it is not even under development

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:11:00 - [124]
 

The problem of RMT isn't because of players, it's like saying there are sometimes rainy days because of the evil oceans and sun that keep on providing the water to us.

RMT will allways be there but you can affect how much power it has by changing the gameplay mechanics so that it requires player interaction instead of bot code!

bots will move into areas where it is most profitable to keep em. At the moment mining and courier missions are where the bots like to be. second is basic mission running. I'd start making these more interactive... require mining some probing, require player to change crystals after every rock for optimal output(each rock is different), require courier missions to be done partly inside stations talking to the NPC(walking in stations), give rats better AI... and so on

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:13:00 - [125]
 

umm
a bit on the weak side as a blog,
I appreciate you don't want to give out lots of info, however some graphs - even with more cowbell would be better.


but continue...

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:23:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Sister Hypatia
I've reported several highsec mining bots (you know, 23/7 online ones). Still there and digging, so reporting bots is useless! I guess their logs show nothing. Devblog is useless and shows nothing too.


Could it be the case that CCP does not immediately ban bots, because CCP wants to follow the money trail, so that they can identify and ban the main characters of those who also run bot accounts?

Personally, I'm disinclined to give CCP that much credit, but it could be the reason why those bot you reported haven't been banned yet.

Clone 1
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:37:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Salpad
Originally by: Sister Hypatia
I've reported several highsec mining bots (you know, 23/7 online ones). Still there and digging, so reporting bots is useless! I guess their logs show nothing. Devblog is useless and shows nothing too.


Could it be the case that CCP does not immediately ban bots, because CCP wants to follow the money trail, so that they can identify and ban the main characters of those who also run bot accounts?



Let's say that approach was true, and CCP have been doing it this way since the start then clearly that approach is not working, and there can be no greater indictment that the current state of bot/RMT.

It seems that rampant bot use, is not directly linked to RMT and thus half of the 'devblog' is off topic.


Also page 1 of this thread is cached improperly and get '500 - Internal Error' when logged in from ip range 86.45.x.x (ireland) BUT works fine when logged in from 174.36.x.x (germany).

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.14 10:57:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Clone 1
Also page 1 of this thread is cached improperly and get '500 - Internal Error' when logged in from ip range 86.45.x.x (ireland) BUT works fine when logged in from 174.36.x.x (germany).

I get the 500 (since yesterday evening) when visiting the first site while logged in - if I am logged out I can view it just fine.

84.151.*.* (Germany)

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.14 11:39:00 - [129]
 

I have got to say I am absolutely and utterly dismayed by the amount of macros and botters blatantly mining ICE in high sec.

Simple facts:
Why the hell is the CSM full of Alliances ?
Why the hell can't I vote for more none Alliance characters ?

90% of players are in high sec, therefore a majority or at least half of the CSM should be made up of high sec players. If this cannot be done then get rid of the CSM altogether and replace it with a voting system.

The CSM is a complete failure, it just cements the allaince domination of a few already very rich players who don't even pay to play into the development process. Well done for another EPIC failure to even bother with listening to your paying customers.


Over the years I have seen all my mining friends leave - others have picked up on "my mineral prices", really they are mine are they ? Well CCP all I can see is legit players realising this "game" is friggin rigged and pointless and they left hitting your balance sheet - well done.

As regards "my mineral prices" - let's just cast our eye over to what Alliances are doing. I see Alliances with 100's of capitals in their fleets and the majority being Titans and Super Capitals. And mineral prices are at their lowest price ever,,, is their perchance a small problem here ? Cos to my casual eye it looks like theirs one friggin EPIC problem.


Yet I also weigh into the balance your own Development cycle:

1) Sovereignty which requires systems to be played constantly to be improved - botters FTW ?
2) New sovereignty system brought in to "open up" null sec, what a friggin EPIC failure again - botters FTW ? Just how many times have you changed this now ?
3) Sovereignty mechanics which require focused fleets which also bring LAG - do we see a pattern here yet ?

4) Planetary Interaction, so boring and repetative a real humans hand hurts and the goddamn mouse gets worn out - botters FTW ?

5) Ice mining, people have been asking for the mechanics to be changed for over 5 years - botters FTW ?
6) Mining, people have been asking for the mechanics to be changed for over 5 years - botters FTW ?

7) Ratting in null sec, now if this isnt botting heaven then I dont know what is.
8) Rats in high sec, they are so weak botters don't even bother with them. Normal players get rid of them regardless and I am sure wouldn't mind a challenge of waves of them every so often, maybe some cruisers ? No let's make it easy for the botters.

9) Missioning, you haven't even bothered to update this crap for years. Yeah you've put in some new graphics so what ? - botters FTW ?
10) Is there any correlation perhaps do you think between the ship of choice and weapon of choice of the botter and botting ? Missile always hit, they have no falloff, they hit at 0km to whatever range they can hit, and the Raven perma tank ? Why does this exist ? Botters love it for certain.
11) Missioning rewards being reduced, this plays directly into the hand of RMT.
12) Missions being set in lowsec, another RMT boost.
13) Faction missions set in low sec, oo I wonder what this would boost ? RMT perhaps ?
14) No real life player is going to take billions of ISK of implants and ships into low sec for anything, they'll cancel the missions and face not playing Eve instead, another RMT win. And no JC is worth doing and face another day of SP lost for a few ISK.

15) T1 production, it's static. In real life things change, change is something that CANNOT BE SCRIPTED, you know the old "A change is as good as a rest" ? Bring on T1.1 already. Humans don't like doing static stuff, we thrive on change.

16) Promotion of Caldari and demotion of other races and I mean like for YEARS,,, er why ? unless of course you want linear play -> botting

17) T2 BPOs, static ISK printing machines that promote one style of game play, well done - NOT.


Every year I play Eve I hope and wish you guys will "Get it", WH space was a great step forward.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.12.14 11:52:00 - [130]
 

I like how this blog completely fails to see how PLEXes promotes botting, for RMT or not.

PLEXes provide way for RMTers to have accounts not tied to RL identity, and PLEXes provide incentives for Joe Schmoe to bot in order to "play for free" (people can't read an electrical bill).

Suppress plexes. Ban BUYERS...

For people to stop buying ISKs they need to start losing accounts, not having one char put in the red. In 7 years you'd thought CCP would have understood putting people in the red wasn't nearly dissuasive enough.

Fact is, CCP makes money of botters, or they think they do because they have no numbers on how many genuine players are put off the game by the rampant cheating (you got to jump in a 0.0 ice system and see 70 Machinaw to log out at once to understand the extent).

So they pay lip service, like this blog. While they design new macro friendly gameplay elements like PI (so macro friendly in can only me played sanely while macroed tbh).

Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.12.14 11:56:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
16) Promotion of Caldari and demotion of other races and I mean like for YEARS,,, er why ? unless of course you want linear play -> botting

Are you ******ed? Seriously, are you ******ed?

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.14 11:59:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 14/12/2010 12:04:30
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
90% of players are in high sec, therefore a majority or at least half of the CSM should be made up of high sec players. If this cannot be done then get rid of the CSM altogether and replace it with a voting system.

- many high-sec players are just alts of 0.0 players.

- 0.0 players actually vote for their candidates, apparently many high-sec players can't be bothered to vote at all.

- Ankhesentapemkah showed that you can get enough votes for a CSM seat by spamming high-sec hubs. She also was stupid enough to get booted from CSM for a NDA violation (tough luck if your representatives throw away your votes like that).

- nevertheless being backed in your candidacy by a large alliance makes things much easier (you cannot fail completely, have some additional manpower at hand for your campaign/forum support, ...) - high-sec players are split in much smaller groups than the alliances and powerblocs in 0.0 which makes it much harder for them to speak with one voice.
(But that just means they fail at the organization/coordination game and is no excuse for them not being "properly" represented at CSM).

- as one who currently has no affiliation with a 0.0 alliance here's why I would never vote for a high-sec candidate:
I can trust just about any 0.0 dweller to be fairly knowledgeable and aware of most high-sec playstyles (doesn't mean (s)he supports them - but at least (s)he knows about them).
I have met too many high-sec dwellers who know close to nothing about life in low-sec and 0.0 (scientists have postulated that there should be life in low-sec - however, direct evidence of it has yet to be found).

edit: points 11-15 are stupid.
the only way I can make sense of point 16 is by taking it as a reference to the Achura bloodline.

Shurikane
Posted - 2010.12.14 12:30:00 - [133]
 

You guys realize they can't ban without irrefutable proof, right?

Imagine if they really did ban on suspicion. That numbers above and beyond normality were considered a sign of botting and dealt with accordingly.

OK. OK, let's do that.

...

What if you do have that much time to spend mining and ratting? Are you screwed?

This is a complete repeat of what happens in the FPS world: player has too many kills on the server, admin sees it, admin calls hax, admin instabans player without appeal. Great. Another one gets punished for the ****-ups of others. And admins who do that practice are quickly regarded as complete *******s.

You can't apply that to EVE. Not now, not ever, never will happen. If someone looks like he's botting but you can't prove he's botting, then your hands are tied. Imagine you're at a trial and you have to show the evidence. If you can't say "We found this program running on his computer and it's a bot program." then sorry, nothing you can do.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.14 12:47:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Shurikane
You can't apply that to EVE. Not now, not ever, never will happen. If someone looks like he's botting but you can't prove he's botting, then your hands are tied. Imagine you're at a trial and you have to show the evidence. If you can't say "We found this program running on his computer and it's a bot program." then sorry, nothing you can do.

if there would be any trial it would be about the ToS - but as long as these are compatible with law CCP has no need to provide any justification for banning you.

besides... short of taking control of the customer's computer there is no way to "prove" that he is botting. It's always a judgment call based on circumstantial evidence.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 12:54:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Shurikane
You guys realize they can't ban without irrefutable proof, right?

Imagine if they really did ban on suspicion. That numbers above and beyond normality were considered a sign of botting and dealt with accordingly.

OK. OK, let's do that.

...

What if you do have that much time to spend mining and ratting? Are you screwed?



Heh nice try at muddying the water.

CCP can ban you for any reason they can think of. Doesn't matter whether they have proof or not.

So lets deal with "proof" shall we? There is a clear record of all bounties awarded for killing npcs. Start there with the banstick. Nice and easy - simply look at the obvious systems (I provided a list of 15) and look at who has been there lately.

If anyone thinks its normal that a system way the hell out in the middle of nowhere has a rat kill every 7 seconds on average then I got a bridge to sell you.

CCP KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. There's no way they can't know short of gross incompetence.

Their choice as to whether to ignore it or not.

Jaqel Broadside
Posted - 2010.12.14 12:54:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 14/12/2010 12:58:00
Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 14/12/2010 12:54:53
Originally by: Cyaxares II

I have met too many high-sec dwellers who know close to nothing about life in low-sec and 0.0 (scientists have postulated that there should be life in low-sec - however, direct evidence of it has yet to be found).



oo look it's the promoter of Akita T, you know the one advocating legalising botting boring mining,,,

Well let's take a quick look at what has happened by those who know all about low sec and null sec.

Have they improved life in High Sec at all ? Have they reduced high sec income ? Have missions been forced into low sec ? Is there a continued effort to keep pushing what is left of high sec income down ?

Your argument stands on it's head, the majority of players in Eve have a CSM dominated by null sec and low sec players. Are the majority of Eve players gonna get a good service from low sec and null sec alliances ? Really ? I mean it's not like alliances are reknowned for their generosity is it ? And you seriously expect low sec players to even think of playing "fair",,

Obviously each CSM member has only looked after their own interests.

CSM mechanics promote a CSM unfit for purpose, which should be to make a game better for everyone.


Originally by: Cyaxares II

edit: points 11-15 are stupid.



Points 11 to 15 are real life facts of the CSM and CCP supposedly to change mineral prices because missioners were supposedly earning way too much ISK and causing mineral prices to fall. Good joke,,, and it looks as though mineral price support was like epic failure.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating,,, CSM failure - not fit for purpose.

And yet during all this time the Ice being bot mined has gone on and on and on,,, we've seen one after another of mining improvement requests posted in the CSM. A lot have been flamed and despite years of these requests going on we see no CSM action.

The CSM by now should be self analysing itself to see how and why the core aspects of the game can be so destroyed while it exists, a process I expect CCP to also to go through.

Failure by either organisation to recognise that actually they themselves have a large amount of blame to bare in this process is pure evidence of a lack of reality, complacency, arrogance, cultural failure and denial, or the fact they actually want the game we see today.


Originally by: Cyaxares II

the only way I can make sense of point 16 is by taking it as a reference to the Achura bloodline.



Really ? Hmmm perhaps I should have said by race I mean specific factors like Caldari LP rewards like the god of Shield resistance faction modules, Faction Caldari Weapons being better than T2, Caldari Tanks, Caldari weapon mechanics, Caldari EW, Caldari Range ROKH FTW, Caldari Battlecruiser tank, need I go on or are you really that blind ? Caldari Raven BS of choice for null sec botting. I mean fleets of T1 battlecruisers in null sec winning wars ? Caldari the only race with great EW ? The Eve map has shown this information for years,, jeez I would have thought by now you would have spotted that Akita T and all.

But this is a diversion,, just another step in the direction of botters. Caldari FTW is just a CCP culture that makes the process that much more obvious.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:12:00 - [137]
 

Look, the main source of RMT and botting on massive scales is as obvious as the real problem with airline security.

No one wants to openly admit the truth because it's politically incorrect, so we pretend the elephant isn't in the room while we devise clever schemes to repair the glassware it keeps breaking whilst searching the mice for glass cutters.

CCP, look at the map, look at Dotlan, cut off the head of the snake.

Anything else is an exercise in mental ************ that will require a lot of unnecessary work and yield zero results.

Everyone knows who is sanctioning botters and engaging in RMT on a truly massive scale. Maybe they aren't the ONLY ones but no one is doing it on the same scale. Curbstomp them and set a precedent for what will happen to alliances and alliance LEADERS who sanction (and benefit) from this activity.


Shurikane
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:13:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Shurikane on 14/12/2010 13:14:17
Originally by: Othran
CCP can ban you for any reason they can think of. Doesn't matter whether they have proof or not.

They can. But they shouldn't. Unless they want to turn the "omg ccp iz doin nuffin" fanfare into a "omg ccp abuzin its powa" one.

Originally by: Othran
So lets deal with "proof" shall we? There is a clear record of all bounties awarded for killing npcs. Start there with the banstick.

No.

Originally by: Othran
Nice and easy - simply look at the obvious systems (I provided a list of 15) and look at who has been there lately.

Keyword: obvious. Instant red flag. "He gets all the kills as a sniper, he's obviously hacking!" "I looked at him for a whole round and he shot everybody in sight! His hack is sooooooo obvious!" "He knew where everybody was! I swear to God! It was so obvious!"

No. Hell no. A million times no. You could go ahead and apply the banhammer anyway. You might score a real hack or a real bot, sure. But the moment you hit a legitimate player and he raises a ****storm about it, you are proper ****ed.



Story time!

Playing Battlefield 2142 - shootan' gaems - I entered a server on a fresh new round. In the course of the round, I took the lead and soon held it by over 50 points over the second place, 30 of these points resulting from kills. In a game where you get a point per kill and a point per teamwork action (flag capture, heal, repair, revive), that's quite a lot of work.

So the admin on the opposing team looked at the scoreboard, went "This can't be right, he's leading by too much, he's obviously hacking." And bam, I'm back at the server menu.

Now, what really happened:

I had picked up one of the only two armored vehicles available on the map, and I was very proficient at this particular one. I went to town with it. I decimated entire squads from the safety of my metal plating and nobody made an attempt at taking me down with anti-vehicle rockets. I was a nigh invincible superman shooting fish in a barrel. I fought aggressively and chased soldiers as they sought to run away. It had been nothing more than skills plus a valuable asset.

Imagine porting that over to EVE. I hop in my trusty Raven, wander my alliance's space, get a nice quiet system and go to town ratting while a corpmate trails behind in an industrial, quickly chaining my rats until I have almost nothing but the best and meanest pirate battleships with the biggest bounty. Oops! Too many kills in too little time. Too much cash in too few seconds. Botlike behavior. Banned!

And once you reach the point where the decision is no longer based on material but on the GM's own judgement, where the hell are you supposed to draw the line? For all I know, the difference between me playing and getting the boot could be lying in the concerned GM simply having a bad day.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:21:00 - [139]
 

If the bots are as complex as has been hinted it will be no way of telling who is a bot and who isn't unless the bot operator is stupid and leaves them running 23.5/7.

ArchenTheGreat
Caldari
Pulsar Nebulah
Army of Lovers.
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:22:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Shurikane

Imagine porting that over to EVE. I hop in my trusty Raven, wander my alliance's space, get a nice quiet system and go to town ratting while a corpmate trails behind in an industrial, quickly chaining my rats until I have almost nothing but the best and meanest pirate battleships with the biggest bounty. Oops! Too many kills in too little time. Too much cash in too few seconds. Botlike behavior. Banned!



If you do this for 23/7 than you are botting. And if not than you need a ****ing life and CCP will do you a favor by banning you anyway.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:25:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Shurikane
Edited by: Shurikane on 14/12/2010 13:14:17
Originally by: Othran
CCP can ban you for any reason they can think of. Doesn't matter whether they have proof or not.

They can. But they shouldn't. Unless they want to turn the "omg ccp iz doin nuffin" fanfare into a "omg ccp abuzin its powa" one.

Originally by: Othran
So lets deal with "proof" shall we? There is a clear record of all bounties awarded for killing npcs. Start there with the banstick.

No.



Look at Dotlan. There are systems where there are such ridiculous rates of NPC kills in backwater drone 0.0 systems that botting is OBVIOUS.

Example:

1. Map F-HQWV (Perrigen Falls) 9612

That system is a repeat offender... 9,612 NPC's killed in the last 3 hours equals 53, yes, FIFTY THREE NPC's killed every SECOND.

Make an argument that there aren't bots responsible for that?

Who is going to shoot virtually every NPC in a system practically the moment they spawn? Humans aren't going to do that, a system filled with bots will.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:30:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Shurikane

Story time!


Your analogy makes zero sense in this context.

The people concerned are running bots 23/7. That can be seen AND proven over a couple of weeks.

So either they're botting or they are sharing the account. Either one carries a ban.

Do keep on trying to muddy the water - I'm sure sooner or later it'll become obvious whose alt you are.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:30:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
That system is a repeat offender... 9,612 NPC's killed in the last 3 hours equals 53, yes, FIFTY THREE NPC's killed every SECOND.

Math surely isn't your strongest side. It is 3600 seconds in an hour. *hint*

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:34:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Othran on 14/12/2010 13:34:17
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
That system is a repeat offender... 9,612 NPC's killed in the last 3 hours equals 53, yes, FIFTY THREE NPC's killed every SECOND.

Math surely isn't your strongest side. It is 3600 seconds in an hour. *hint*


...and its not 3 hours either :)

He has a point about that system though Wink

Shurikane
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:36:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: ArchenTheGreat
If you do this for 23/7 than you are botting. And if not than you need a ****ing life and CCP will do you a favor by banning you anyway.


Oh really?

Okay. Okay. I do a full-day marathon of ratting, so I'm a bot. Yep.

Oh, I went in and said "Hold your horses." so I'm obviously in favor of bots, yep.

Eventually botters will code new versions that are increasingly humanlike in behavior until there's no longer any real difference. Hey, how about we ban everybody right now? It can not fail!

Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.12.14 13:42:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Oni Triad on 14/12/2010 13:48:07
Originally by: Jack Gilligan

Example:

1. Map F-HQWV (Perrigen Falls) 9612

That system is a repeat offender... 9,612 NPC's killed in the last 3 hours equals 53, yes, FIFTY THREE NPC's killed every SECOND.


I see 34752 in the last 24 hours. For 10 man ratting that's a rat every ~30 seconds. For 30 people ratting that's a rat every ~75 seconds.

Also consider drones as rats and 30 jumping in/out in the last 1h.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:11:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 14/12/2010 14:53:34
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside
Have they improved life in High Sec at all ? Have they reduced high sec income ? Have missions been forced into low sec ? Is there a continued effort to keep pushing what is left of high sec income down ?

hmmm... I thought high-sec was the place were you can run your mission bots in complete safety?

edit: as for the derision you pour at Akita and me - while i cannot speak for Akita's motivations my personal opinion is that everybody who is smart enough to beat the system (while getting away with it) has earned the right to do so (from a purely moral POV).
I have nothing but contempt for people who buy bots, use high-level toolkits to manipulate the EVE client's memory, ... but if you are able to hack together your own bot and hide it from CCP then by all means go ahead - in my mind you have earned the right to use it by probably spending more thought and creativity on it than most EVE players will exert in their entire gaming career.
And Akita's proposal of "just give us an official API to write our own bots" would level the playing field for this sort of metagaming (at the moment the risk vs reward equation is pretty unpredictable).
If something can be automated that's usually a great thing and the competition for the most efficient automation can be exciting and extremely challenging. Telling people "no - you are not allowed to do this because I don't want to compete with you in that challenge" just seems stupid - in the end both parties could profit from less boring, manual work and more interesting metagaming.
Do you seriously want to tell me that it's more fun to 0.01 ISK manually than think about the most efficient & robust trading algorithms and have your bots execute these?
That it's more interesting to spend hours mining than writing mining bots that are "intelligent" enough to avoid even advanced detection measures? (or if botting were legalized - can deal with random NPC behavior, incursions, ...)

Have you ever played Core Wars? (yes, that's what Mind Clash looks like in reality)

why enforce dumbing the game down (by having people do all the stupid tasks manually) when you could raise it to a whole new level of intellectual challenges instead?

so, yes - I have a certain bias towards botting but no sympathy for the vast majority of botters out there (script kiddies, get off my lawn, ...).

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:17:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Manfred Sideous
#1 Wormholes I think have served as a good beta for removing local in other areas of Eve. I think the time has come to remove local from 0.0 and Low Sec. No data should be transmitted to the client when others enter a solar system. Perhaps a small rebuff to the scanner is in order adding more functionality to it. The trade off would be that constellation chat would function as local chat does now.

#2 All moon minerals should be moved to planetary interaction. This takes the isk out of the hands of large corporations and alliances and places it in the hands of the player. Social paradigms in Eve will adjust to this change trust me. This will also strengthen the bond between Eve players and Dust players. Something I think that CCP would be interested in.

#3 All production should be moved to player operated stations ( POS). Well they need some reason to exist now due to point 2. Having outpost in 0.0 increases the production efficiency of a POS. In empire or lowsec having standings to the owner of any production station increases the efficiency in which you produce from a POS in empire/low sec systems.

#4 Lvl 4 and 5 Missions should be moved to lowsec. The reason being is once you kill the bots there will be hordes of mission bots created. With the nerf of local chat in lowsec bots simply wont be able to function.

( A side note once you remove local us PVP'rs will feast on anyone that tries to use a bot as they will be such easy prey. Jump into local warp cloaked once your target is scanned down. Approach to smart bomb range decloak and smartbomb before the bot can log causing aggression.)

#5 CCP Chribba - Change the Eula make it illegal to trade sell supercaps without using CCPchribba. Hire a small staff with GM powers to hop to any system at any time. A fee is paid of 300 million isk or 14.99 and CCPchribba handles the transfer. Im aware all items have a unique ID and so do players. When a supercap is entered by a pod it is recorded. Should another pod try to enter a supercapital without CCPchribba facilitating the transfer it throws a flag to GM's . Punishment is then leavied for violation the EULA/TOS. Whola no more supercaps for cash. 300 million isk is the fee Chribba currently charges for transfers. I would think that you would need 3 full time employees and 2 part time employees to handle this operation. Each trade no matter how it is paid puts money in CCP's pocket. The only person adversely effected is Chribba.

* Addendum - Players can have other characters that they themselves control added to the allowed list of character ID's able to inhabit a Supercapital they own. ( this is a pre-work around to the cries that will come from people who use holding characters for when there super isn't in use)


This would be how I would curbstomp RMT and botting. I think these changes would seriously limit both operations and add more diversity to Eve.

♥ Manny




Holy %$#$ Manny - You are seriously one smart guy. To be totally honest these are some of the best ideas I have heard of to improve EVE in a long time and would like to actually see a CSM response. If not contact me ingame and lets push this on the Town hall in the forums.

I really liked the part (As an indy. guy) of all manufacturing at POS's. This would really spice up EVE life and force people into getting used to POS's and thus low/o.o/WH space too if they didn't grind out the awesome standings to have a POS in empire. I could easilly see it going along with the flogging the dead horse POS thread too and adding much needed cohesion to building corps etc. GREAT IDEA.

I also really like the Moon mins to planets for the DUST cohesion but also as it would be easy to regulate and keep prices of T2 the same. The market would take care of things, low sec would gain a boom again, and 0.0 would be for people that want their own space and the awesome plexes, ABC roids, and Ice, etc

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:30:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Datcorinna Erunde
Edited by: Datcorinna Erunde on 13/12/2010 20:59:30
We really should help CCP in this matter, the seem so help- and clueless. Probably this is the very reason for this semi- devblog: they want advice from us how to find bots. So I want to try my best to explain it step by step for the interested guys on CCP.

Step Zero Point Five
Ask your customers how to handle the problem by throwing them a semi-quality devblog at their heads (already done).

Step One
Click on this link to dotlan and there you click on any of the "Region maps". Preferably on one that you guess it might be a 0.0 one (but others will do the trick too), let's say click on something like e.g."Malpais".

Step Two
You see a map of the chosen region now. On the upper right corner of the map you will notice two dropdown menus, click on the left one and select "NPC kills (24h)".

This will change the map info layer to showing you the amount of killed NPC's during the last 24 hours. For your convenience the great Wollari even colored the shown systems accordingly to the amount of the occured kills. He colored it from white (like "almost nothing") via green, yellow, orange up to a fine, perfect visible shiny red (like "unusually high occurance of NPC kills in this very system OMG OMG!!!!!!11111" or, more fitting "look here CCP, here are the bots!").

Step Three
Click on the red system wich you found to have the highest or second highest number of NPC kills inside the region, e.g. click on (by the time of me writing this) the system "RIU-GC" with an astonishing amount of 10282 kills in 24 hours (while every other system with an amount of 5000 and above kills would do fine too for our purposes).

Step Four
Grab your GM- tools and find out what are the names of the pilots, who killed these 10k rats in 24 hours. Wait until one of them is logged in for say one hour, then start to monitor him for some time without entering his system and do your usual stuff you always do with suspects to find them out and continue with Step Five.

(If you don't know what to do with suspects to find them out botting or not, restart with Step Zero Point One and ask your always willing-to-help customers how to handle this by writing a new devblog about your small step accomplishments and the big problems in recognising usual bot behaviour.)

Step Five
Ban the crap out of them bot acounts and repeat from Step One.



And for the lazy:

Go here, scroll down to "Most active systems 0.0" and use the right table for your investigations. Btw anyone noticed, that there are always the very same regions appearing in this chart?


THIS - LOL Datcorrina - Gee, I wonder what alliances/players this could be??? :) haha This post deserves bumping all day. Hopefully CCP listens to your well spelled out point. Cheers!!

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2010.12.14 14:47:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Grady Eltoren on 14/12/2010 14:49:30
Originally by: Jaqel Broadside

STUFF




Another great post...couldn't agree more. Last thought then I am done.

If I might add to it too - reduce item drops to only named T1 so that the builders/market can take care of the rest. T2 entry reqs for skills should have been higher too I think (In most cases 5 days of training to get access to T2 version) and I think looking back on it now that hurts the economy/game. Not sure how one would fix this but hopefully someone gets my point.

One last thought then I am done with this blog...Mining - fix it! Make it interactive like someone suggested sorta in a CAPTCHA way. Make the results not luck based but interactive to the point of that determines outcome maybe? I don't know how you would do this without making it a click fest (but yet strongly skill based) but maybe you could make it a click fest that didn't take HOURS so it wouldn't be so bad and make roids yield more so (like someone else pointed out) mining isn't a bore. Make Roids farther inbetween too. (I.e. low sec and o.o and wormholes with only a few in hi-sec available only through tutorials, scanning, or missions so that starting miners are not left out in the cold while cutting their teeth so to say).

my .02 isk


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