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Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 00:28:00 - [1]
 

Perhaps the simplest and best solution is to remove Normal Cynos entirely and force Jump Capables to jump to a star (or POS Jump Module) and then warp to the fight. This would force more thought than a Blob Carebear hitting F8 into deploying Capitals.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:10:00 - [2]
 

"Alliance X: contests system"
"Alliance Y: Hey all, let's park our ship + bubble blob on the star to create massive lag on jump-in".
"Alliance X: let's give up and go home guys"
(alternatively: "Alliance X: jumps in, DIAF and loses billions in vain")

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:10:00 - [3]
 

no!

the jump mechanic is perfect

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:16:00 - [4]
 

What the game needs is a mobile cyno jammer, a mod that can be fitted as easily as the cyno generator, with active jamming range of about 30km. That way roaming gangs can protect themselves, while alliance fleets can still invade systems

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:18:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
What the game needs is a mobile cyno jammer, a mod that can be fitted as easily as the cyno generator, with active jamming range of about 30km. That way roaming gangs can protect themselves, while alliance fleets can still invade systems


how about no
how about you risk a hotdrop for the reward of gang pvp

stop trying to make eve into hello kitty online. You might get hotdropped, be prepared! Kill the thing they dropped! Think of it as a carrier kill delivery if you're set up right.Twisted Evil

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:23:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: masternerdguy
no!

the jump mechanic is perfect

Jump mechanic needs a fix. Its perfect for safe PvP on the cyno'ers side. PvP is not supposed to be safe. Next.

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: masternerdguy
no!

the jump mechanic is perfect

Jump mechanic needs a fix. Its perfect for safe PvP on the cyno'ers side. PvP is not supposed to be safe. Next.


the problem is you want safe pvp on your end, so thats a double standard.
lrn2 hotdrop

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:29:00 - [8]
 

I've said this before, but; when CCP released the information (I think in E-ON magazine 2006?) that they were working on a "battleship" with a "mobile jumpdrive", I was hoping it'd end up being a portalling ship that would help fleets cyno 1 jump, to bypass gatecamps (but cover no longer distances than that).

Obviously that turned out to the be the Black Ops battleships, but I still think the idea of having a t2 battleship that is able to bridge fleets a very short distance, without having a cyno to lock on, is a cool idea. You'd just send them to a random location in the target system, max one jump out. Obviously it'd have a limit on how much ships you could send as well.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: masternerdguy
Originally by: Ephemeron
What the game needs is a mobile cyno jammer, a mod that can be fitted as easily as the cyno generator, with active jamming range of about 30km. That way roaming gangs can protect themselves, while alliance fleets can still invade systems


how about no
how about you risk a hotdrop for the reward of gang pvp

stop trying to make eve into hello kitty online. You might get hotdropped, be prepared! Kill the thing they dropped! Think of it as a carrier kill delivery if you're set up right.Twisted Evil
It is the current cyno mechanics that make EVE much dumber game than it should be.

Consider the facts:
1) anyone can fit a cyno easily
2) there is no effective way to know your enemy carries a cyno
3) there is no way to know what kind of forces will jump to cyno
4) it takes only 3-5 seconds for people to magically appear once the cyno is lit.

Where is the strategy? where are tactical options? this is Russian Roulette plain and simple. Only ******s play that game.

PHoneix NOir
Posted - 2010.12.13 01:58:00 - [10]
 

Maybe try like 3 different cyno's, one for massive fleets, one for medium fleets, and one for small fleets. The larger the fleet the larger cyno you need and the less accurate it is, meaning you are more likely to end up somewhat far from the battle. While the smallest cyno module will allow a cap to land quite close to it.

Stegas Tyrano
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:02:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Stegas Tyrano on 13/12/2010 02:04:00
How about they give it a delay so that there's enough time to kill the Cyno.

Or why not make it so fuel is consumed on the number of ships jumping through and not on activation of module.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:05:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: masternerdguy
Originally by: Ephemeron
What the game needs is a mobile cyno jammer, a mod that can be fitted as easily as the cyno generator, with active jamming range of about 30km. That way roaming gangs can protect themselves, while alliance fleets can still invade systems


how about no
how about you risk a hotdrop for the reward of gang pvp

stop trying to make eve into hello kitty online. You might get hotdropped, be prepared! Kill the thing they dropped! Think of it as a carrier kill delivery if you're set up right.Twisted Evil
It is the current cyno mechanics that make EVE much dumber game than it should be.

Consider the facts:
1) anyone can fit a cyno easily
2) there is no effective way to know your enemy carries a cyno
3) there is no way to know what kind of forces will jump to cyno
4) it takes only 3-5 seconds for people to magically appear once the cyno is lit.

Where is the strategy? where are tactical options? this is Russian Roulette plain and simple. Only ******s play that game.

Guys just a troll.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:38:00 - [13]
 

nerf cynos! I mean what is the penality of being stuck in place for 10m when 90% of the time they are fit on kestrals and the character doing the cyno is nothing but a cyno alt. and at worse its an insured bait ship

Jan'z Kolna
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:01:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Misanth
"Alliance X: contests system"
"Alliance Y: Hey all, let's park our ship + bubble blob on the star to create massive lag on jump-in".
"Alliance X: let's give up and go home guys"
(alternatively: "Alliance X: jumps in, DIAF and loses billions in vain")


who says jumping ship must land anywhere near star?

why not random distribution throughout the entire system?

and while we're at it, why not make it possible for all ships ?


ILikeMarkets
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:09:00 - [15]
 

Add a build up time for the ship creating the cyno field that is VERY obvious to others around it (big bright light or whatever)? During that time (say 15-20 seconds), if it gets shot the cyno field creation is completely disrupted.

If they are nowhere near a fight, then no problemo. If they are in a fight and get it off, it is the other side's fault for letting it happen.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:19:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Ephemeron on 13/12/2010 04:22:34
Originally by: ILikeMarkets
Add a build up time for the ship creating the cyno field that is VERY obvious to others around it (big bright light or whatever)? During that time (say 15-20 seconds), if it gets shot the cyno field creation is completely disrupted.

If they are nowhere near a fight, then no problemo. If they are in a fight and get it off, it is the other side's fault for letting it happen.
As much as I hate cynos, I'm afraid this idea would make fleet warfare too difficult for the attacking party. When there are 100s of defenders, it would be too easy for them to use cov ops like Stealth Bomber to continuously disrupt cyno ships.

It can work if during a warm up there is no warpable beacon

Aeo IV
Amarr
Xomic OmniCorporation
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:19:00 - [17]
 

I've never understood why jump ships couldn't jump into a non cyno'd system-- the whole lore of jump technology was that it allowed ships to move between systems without needing to send a ship before it to build a gate.


So Sensational
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:40:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: So Sensational on 13/12/2010 04:41:44
Originally by: PHoneix NOir
Maybe try like 3 different cyno's, one for massive fleets, one for medium fleets, and one for small fleets. The larger the fleet the larger cyno you need and the less accurate it is, meaning you are more likely to end up somewhat far from the battle. While the smallest cyno module will allow a cap to land quite close to it.

+1 Fantastic mechanic.
If by far from the battle you mean still on grid. Even so that would still make hot-dropping a danger because of snipers, but it seems like a fair balance to me.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jan'z Kolna
Originally by: Misanth
"Alliance X: contests system"
"Alliance Y: Hey all, let's park our ship + bubble blob on the star to create massive lag on jump-in".
"Alliance X: let's give up and go home guys"
(alternatively: "Alliance X: jumps in, DIAF and loses billions in vain")


who says jumping ship must land anywhere near star?

why not random distribution throughout the entire system?

and while we're at it, why not make it possible for all ships ?




I envisioned a slightly smaller method, completely random would be safe spot hell. Maybe a million km3 box around the star bm.

I've suggested (before Jump Drives were even in EvE) that all ships should be able to jump to stars and gates should be primarily for local traffic.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:04:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Aeo IV
I've never understood why jump ships couldn't jump into a non cyno'd system-- the whole lore of jump technology was that it allowed ships to move between systems without needing to send a ship before it to build a gate.




CCP wanted more players to buy a second account. There is no other reason to require cynos for jumping.

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.12.13 05:37:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: SR65 on 13/12/2010 05:37:36
While I do love to partake in the occasional hot drop, cynos are a bit OP when you think about it.

-Cyno can be fitted to a throw away ship, so the drawbacks of not being able to move aren't really a drawback.
-Cyno also has unlimited amount of ships that can come through it.
-There's almost no way to know a fleet of 100 capitals is about to jump from some far away system onto you; it's not like a normal trap where you can check the other surrounding systems for a blob. Plus, it puts ships right in your face immediately where as a normal trap, they have to jump the gate and then take the few seconds to warp to you.

With the trend of EVE turning into capitals and super capitals online, I personally think the cyno mechanic needs to be tweaked a bit.
Maybe implement a ship limit or something to certain sizes of cynos? The larger the cyno, the harder it is to fit to a ship and the more expensive it is, but will allow more ships to come through. Maybe make regular cynos not drops ships at 0, but rather at 1M KM from cyno, cloaked, much like it is when you jump just as the cyno goes down with current mechanics. Not really sure, just some ideas. Thoughts?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:37:00 - [22]
 

Starting with the assumption that being able to drop a dozen supercarriers onto a ratting battleship within five seconds is a Bad Thing™, how about this:

First, reduce the base cycle time of the cyno projector from 5 minutes down to 1 minute. With this change a force recon pilot can cycle that cyno in 30 seconds. No more being stuck in space for 5 minutes when you're lighting cynos for carrier logistics.

Second, make the cyno only visible to the rest of the fleet at the end of the first cycle - in much the same way that armour reppers only provide the armour boost at the end of the cycle.

Third, increment the mass that may be moved through the cyno for each cycle that the cyno is lit (the projector has to adapt to locus-specific variances in the ambient cynosural flux). Thus on the first cycle you can jump/bridge frigate/cruiser sized objects, second cycle you can fit battleships and subcaps, third cycle (1m30s) you can jump caps, fourth cycle you can jump supercaps.

This short beacon time doesn't quite permit the defenders warping to the cyno and blowing up the invading ship before defenders can arrive, but by the same token it doesn't permit dropping a dozen supercarriers on a ratting battleship before the victim can so much as type "help" in alliance chat.

dankness420
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:39:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Starting with the assumption that being able to drop a dozen supercarriers onto a ratting battleship within five seconds is a Bad Thing™, how about this:

First, reduce the base cycle time of the cyno projector from 5 minutes down to 1 minute. With this change a force recon pilot can cycle that cyno in 30 seconds. No more being stuck in space for 5 minutes when you're lighting cynos for carrier logistics.

Second, make the cyno only visible to the rest of the fleet at the end of the first cycle - in much the same way that armour reppers only provide the armour boost at the end of the cycle.

Third, increment the mass that may be moved through the cyno for each cycle that the cyno is lit (the projector has to adapt to locus-specific variances in the ambient cynosural flux). Thus on the first cycle you can jump/bridge frigate/cruiser sized objects, second cycle you can fit battleships and subcaps, third cycle (1m30s) you can jump caps, fourth cycle you can jump supercaps.

This short beacon time doesn't quite permit the defenders warping to the cyno and blowing up the invading ship before defenders can arrive, but by the same token it doesn't permit dropping a dozen supercarriers on a ratting battleship before the victim can so much as type "help" in alliance chat.



Yes this idea is terrible and would make it incredibly hard to cyno into lowsec. as it is, when you light a cyno everyone flies to it to check it out. Yes I am sure my cyno will survive a minute and a half Rolling Eyes

Does anyone in this thread actually use capships ever?

Or for that matter, black ops BSes?

SR65
Amarr
Core Impulse
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:50:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: SR65 on 13/12/2010 06:51:03
Originally by: dankness420
Does anyone in this thread actually use capships ever?

Or for that matter, black ops BSes?

Yes, all the time. But I don't think it's too absurd to think the cheap cyno module isn't an extremely powerful tool.

I really don't see a need to change covert cynos though, they are a whole different ball game imo.

white kight
Helljumpers
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:02:00 - [25]
 

I can't wait for one of the supposed negative effects of a shansha incursion of not being able to light cynos....

FC: Ok drop cyno, caps prepare to jump
Cyno Pilot: Cyno u....... Sansha says no Very Happy

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:10:00 - [26]
 

Cut the range of cynos so you can't teleport half way across the galaxy. Cyno problem fixed. This is not WoW, we don't need teleport.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:15:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Cut the range of cynos so you can't teleport half way across the galaxy. Cyno problem fixed. This is not WoW, we don't need teleport.
I also support range cutting. It's just an extra tho, that by itself doesn't solve the core problem.

Musical Fist
Gallente
NAP Coalition
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:15:00 - [28]
 

Did someone mention blobs?

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:46:00 - [29]
 

Being able to jam a cyno is an obvious counter.

Tidanis
Autistic Sharks
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2010.12.13 07:53:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Tidanis on 13/12/2010 07:56:56
My solution to caps/super cap blobs:

A BC sized hull with the t2 BC hulls (Drake, harbinger, myrmidon, hurricane) that is a capital sized stealth bomber-average cost ~400mil+. Give it citadel torpedo launchers, a command ship style tank ability, and some kind of Bomb launcher to ruin just supercaps/caps only, maybe a shootable dictor bubble that also works like a void bomb, maybe causes a disconnect from their fighters and forces a recall+deployment? Also allow them to cyno with a blackops and you now have a mobile supercap killer.

Edit: and would also work great for WH pos shoots.


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