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Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.12 19:14:00 - [1]
 

To bad the game looks nothing like this. It'd be nice if you could actually saw a animated clip of your ship actually making its way out of the station instead of the black screen, and a progress bar before poof you suddenly appear in space. And of course vice versa Sad

Some people will b**** and complain about time taken up, but at least it'd make Eve appear more realistic, and force the players with their slow PC's and their antiquated processing abilities to upgrade and not hold CCP back.

If any of the CCP developers read this, I hope the above is on CCP's todo list.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.12.12 19:22:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
and force the players with their slow PC's and their antiquated processing abilities


how.. what?

Those are in game footage, it's not something that would increase load on your graphics card. If it did, you'd have to be running some really, Really old, like 8 year old tech.

also

Shameless self plug

That's the loops I made for the video wallpapers.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.12 20:14:00 - [3]
 

"some really, Really old, like 8 year old tech"

You mean the same as the xbox360. Wink

I'm thinking more along the lines of CCP developing more for players who use multi cored cpu's and DX 11 gpu's in their rigs, and 64 bit OS's.

Pandering to the lowest PC set up with probably DX 9 graphics and an old duo cored cpu, is hardly going to make Eve evolve as a MMO, and attract new players. I mean the black screen and progress bar for exit and entry to stations has been used for years, and its time CCP did a bit more progress and stopped having the inside of the station look like a ghost town.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.12 20:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Seul Manus
Pandering to the lowest PC set up with probably DX 9 graphics and an old duo cored cpu, is hardly going to make Eve evolve as a MMO, and attract new players. I mean the black screen and progress bar for exit and entry to stations has been used for years, and its time CCP did a bit more progress and stopped having the inside of the station look like a ghost town.
…yes, and what he's saying is that what you're asking has nothing to do with the power of your computer — those animations would be about as taxing as sitting in station , i.e. not at all.

Oh, and no, they won't give you a completely different render path just to pander to high-end computers. There's not enough of them and it's not worth the duplication of effort. They got rid of the classic client for exactly that reason, so why on earth would they reintroduce it?

SuperNova221
J5 Industries
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:09:00 - [5]
 

Many years ago one of the devs spent countless hours and put all his effort and passion into making docking sequences. Then he got slapped in the face and told that it was stupid because nobody wants to wait just for a pretty little animation to say "Oooh that looks nice" at the first time they see it them ignore it from then on.

Or something along those lines.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: SuperNova221
Many years ago one of the devs spent countless hours and put all his effort and passion into making docking sequences. Then he got slapped in the face and told that it was stupid because nobody wants to wait just for a pretty little animation to say "Oooh that looks nice" at the first time they see it them ignore it from then on.


This. Probably a year or two ago. And I agree. It would end up being tedious. Though it could be introduced as an option that can be turned on by masochists :)

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:24:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 12/12/2010 21:27:54
Originally by: Seul Manus
"some really, Really old, like 8 year old tech"

You mean the same as the xbox360. Wink

I'm thinking more along the lines of CCP developing more for players who use multi cored cpu's and DX 11 gpu's in their rigs, and 64 bit OS's.




What does any of that do to help with making the hangers be a camera that moves around? Those videos are shot in the ingame engine, there is nothing tessellation(DX11) or mulicores would have to do with this.

Gpus don't help with rendering how many ships are on screen, even a 5 year old GPU would handle what you see in those videos, at that quality, in real time.

you can even see the lack of AA in those videos :P

Originally by: Samroski
Originally by: SuperNova221
Many years ago one of the devs spent countless hours and put all his effort and passion into making docking sequences. Then he got slapped in the face and told that it was stupid because nobody wants to wait just for a pretty little animation to say "Oooh that looks nice" at the first time they see it them ignore it from then on.


This. Probably a year or two ago. And I agree. It would end up being tedious. Though it could be introduced as an option that can be turned on by masochists :)


see I don't buy this. it should be easy to make it part of the loading screen, and if it finishes loading it just cuts the cutsence short.


I would set it up so it per-simulates/loads the undock shot whenever you pick a new ship. Then when you undock it plays this animation along with the normal undocking loading bar.

When it finishes, the shot of you undocking finishes as well.

simlpe? won't have to stare at a black screen.


Even if it's not 3d, put something other than black there.

Mr M
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:30:00 - [8]
 

The DT/TTTO ratio isn't high enough for a function like that. It's like the map animation. It's cool the first five times but then you'll turn it off.

DT = Develop Time
TTTO = Time To Turn Off

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:37:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mr M
The DT/TTTO ratio isn't high enough for a function like that. It's like the map animation. It's cool the first five times but then you'll turn it off.

DT = Develop Time
TTTO = Time To Turn Off



but that was my point. it would be possible to turn off.

It also wouldn't effect performance, as it only runs until the system is loaded.

Saying people would turn off something that doesn't take it any longer to do anything is like saying people would turn off the station interior, or the nebula, or weapon effects.

Oh wait, there are people like that.

Are they a good reason to not make new effects?

Lord Wamphyri
Amarr
Starside Lost
Posted - 2010.12.12 23:28:00 - [10]
 

I would personally love to see some kind of animation upon docking/undocking. Maybe seeing your ship grabbed by tractor beams and towed inside the docking port. And possibly once you're inside the station seeing your ship fly to it's hangar like this.

Possibly many people would switch it off after a while but to me it would just add to the immersion rather than seeing a black screen with a progress bar.

Vicker Lahn'se
Minmatar
STRAG3S
Posted - 2010.12.13 00:57:00 - [11]
 

Why not have the whole docking sequence scene playing in the background while giving you access to the resources of being docked. That way if you're not in a big hurry then you can watch your pretty ship fly around. If you're in a hurry then you can ignore the background, grab the stuff you need, and go.

Just make the background scene of being docked more interesting. It doesn't have to affect game play at all.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.13 14:04:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Seul Manus on 13/12/2010 14:05:15
"What does any of that do to help with making the hangers be a camera that moves around? Those videos are shot in the ingame engine, there is nothing tessellation(DX11) or mulicores would have to do with this.

Gpus don't help with rendering how many ships are on screen, even a 5 year old GPU would handle what you see in those videos, at that quality, in real time.

you can even see the lack of AA in those videos :P"

How many players are playing the game at any one time? How many types of ship are in the game? How many combinations of other ships will there be in the background?

Multicored cpu's can handle processing a lot better then old cpus. And modern graphic cards were made for complex moving graphics and dx11.

I distinctly remember the head devs at last years fan fest say the ultimate object of CCP was to turn Eve into the ultimate space game, well that requires immersion, and a docking sequence instead of a little progress bar is more immersive.

Unfortunatly CCP is stuck in the same restrictive electonic componant time warp the general gaming industry is in, in it is ham strung by the antiquated electonic components of the slowest PC and dx 9, just as other developers are ham strung by dx 9 and the even more antiquated electonic components of the xbox360 and the PS3. Crying or Very sad

No wonder game development is stagnent or even maybe going into reverse.







Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.12.13 14:14:00 - [13]
 


You still don't get it, people don't want fancy undockings all they want is this.

Oni Triad
Posted - 2010.12.13 14:15:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon

Shameless self plug

Really nice, care to tell me how you made them?

Nicholas Barker
Deez Nuts.
Posted - 2010.12.13 14:23:00 - [15]
 

You'd quickly get sick of such a video.


Also, why does it go black screen and stop you viewing the chat channels?
Often hear being told to cancel undock over TS, just seems unfair def people not being able to do so, or everybody not being able to monitor intel channels.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.12.13 14:25:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se
Why not have the whole docking sequence scene playing in the background while giving you access to the resources of being docked. That way if you're not in a big hurry then you can watch your pretty ship fly around. If you're in a hurry then you can ignore the background, grab the stuff you need, and go.

Just make the background scene of being docked more interesting. It doesn't have to affect game play at all.

That would be awesome as the 30s session time will prevent ship swapping anyways.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:39:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile

You still don't get it, people don't want fancy undockings all they want is this.


Done a poll of the player base have we, or are you just speaking for yourself?

For example: 1,000 players may not want it, but the other 299,000 Eve subscribers could be longing for a docking and undocking sequence and the space station to not look like a ghost town, and as 50,000 approx people are online most evenings, you have no idea what they all want.

You're assuming they don't want it, but its just your opinion being superimposed on them, and this small collection of nay sayers who post in the forum is not the Eve community.

CCP should do a poll to all the subscribers to find out if its community want it or not.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2010.12.13 17:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Seul Manus
"some really, Really old, like 8 year old tech"

You mean the same as the xbox360. Wink



shows how dumb you are,
when consoles are released they have more powerful gfx cards then PC of that year, not to mention games being developed for PC dont have the latest cards for recommended settings,
the 360 is about 6 years old. the gfx card is outdated by less then 5 years.
xbox graphics still compete with PC graphics
most MMO's have low quality graphics.

if you wanna play the zomg i have Dx11 and blah blah, then next year scrap your rig and rebuild every year so eve can completely rework everything every year instead of delivering content and fixes

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:33:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Herping yourDerp
Originally by: Seul Manus
"some really, Really old, like 8 year old tech"

You mean the same as the xbox360. Wink



shows how dumb you are,
when consoles are released they have more powerful gfx cards then PC of that year, not to mention games being developed for PC dont have the latest cards for recommended settings,
the 360 is about 6 years old. the gfx card is outdated by less then 5 years.
xbox graphics still compete with PC graphics
most MMO's have low quality graphics.

if you wanna play the zomg i have Dx11 and blah blah, then next year scrap your rig and rebuild every year so eve can completely rework everything every year instead of delivering content and fixes


Consoles are a closed platform.

"games being developed for PC" Ho Ho Ho Very Happy Games for the PC are now prodominantly console ports.
"xbox graphics still compete with PC graphics" Ho Ho Ho Very Happy Look who's calling me dumb.
MMO's are ham strung be having to cater to the weakest PC.

What is the lowest PC sys config needed to run Eve?

Would someone please lock this thread before Herping yourDerp makes a fool of himself more then what he has just done. Rolling Eyes



Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.14 19:56:00 - [20]
 

…and yet, the question remains
Originally by: Seul Manus
Unfortunatly CCP is stuck in the same restrictive electonic componant time warp the general gaming industry is in, in it is ham strung by the antiquated electonic components of the slowest PC and dx 9, just as other developers are ham strung by dx 9 and the even more antiquated electonic components of the xbox360 and the PS3. Crying or Very sad
What does this have to do with rendering docking/undocking animations? You seem to keep arguing that they're not happening because CCP are restricted by low-end hardware, and yet those animations is something my Air's integrated GMA X3100 could render with complete fluidity. No extra render path and duplication of effort needed.

So why are you banging on about this hardware limitation that doesn't even exist?

Lork Niffle
Gallente
External Hard Drive
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:01:00 - [21]
 

DX11 offers very little for a game like EVE to improve the immersion. Tesselation is pointless when LOD is much better for a game like EVE

DX9 is still to this day a very capable system and for a game like EVE is all that is needed until a much better system comes along.

CCP are removing Shader Model 2.0 support to help consolidation with SM3,SM4 paths and reduce workload.. Which is quite a move considering you will need a Radeon X1000, Nvidia 6000 or Intel X3100, which considering the number of systems that were built with Nvidia FX5200s, Intel 900s and Radeon 9000 certainly moves a lot of systems out of use, although this is a fraction of what plays EVE, enough to justify the drop.

The thing is with multi-threading, is that often the implementation of it takes up more resources than you would save because of syncronisation, and for video games this is the case nearly always, often you get a better benefit from the OS running background tasks on other threads instead.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:28:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/12/2010 20:46:30
Quote:
How many players are playing the game at any one time? How many types of ship are in the game? How many combinations of other ships will there be in the background?

Multicored cpu's can handle processing a lot better then old cpus. And modern graphic cards were made for complex moving graphics and dx11.

I distinctly remember the head devs at last years fan fest say the ultimate object of CCP was to turn Eve into the ultimate space game, well that requires immersion, and a docking sequence instead of a little progress bar is more immersive.


Op, you be trollin


wait your not? oh dear...

Ok let me ... explain this to you... nice.. and clear.

DX11 has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING.

Quote:
I distinctly remember the head devs at last years fan fest say the ultimate object of CCP was to turn Eve into the ultimate space game, well that requires immersion, and a docking sequence instead of a little progress bar is more immersive.


yes, and hardware has nothing to do with a docking sequence. Do you even know what tessellation is? Normal maps? Texture maps? poly count? Mulicore cpus and newer Gpus allow for more and more polys and higher texture rez maps to be used in real time.

My 5 year old computer could render a scene with over 3000 eve online spaceships floating around at 50 fps, easily.

Quote:
And modern graphic cards were made for complex moving graphics


no, they weren't. At all. Modern graphics cards allow you to load higher rez texture/normal maps. DX11 allows for tessellation which increases an objects poly count based on range with a displacement map.

Eve is the most advanced, graphically, mmo on the market. Have you seen the new character creator? it's all Dx9. Dx10's effects were shown off at fanfest in beta, but when DX10 comes out it will DO NOTHING to the way the game looks.

Just look at Bioshock DX9vs.DX10 videos. It's effects, like running water, and reflections.

real time particle effects, and better lighting with final gather, and ambient occlusion.


Your point is fair, they should put in docking, or at least more interesting station interiors. But right now none of that has anything to do with graphics cards.

In fact right now you can get a brand new graphics card, and eve will run better.



Also on the note of the Xbox360. The Xbox is on pair with most modern PC titles. The Xbox has a 6core 3.0 cpu rendering engines with 256Mb of ram. It is a deacated render machine, meaning it can crank out more than the equal level PC. PCs now far surpass Xbox in quality, but all those setting are optional. They don't make the game actually run any different, or somehow limit what can be done, just at what resolution it can be achieved.

Most gamers won't notice the different, and it has nothing to do with "complex motions"

I just really don't want you think that your GPU has anything to do with it being possible to have cooler station interiors. That's why eve has settings. You can set eve to high if you've got a modern computer, if you turn it down.

Lork Niffle
Gallente
External Hard Drive
Posted - 2010.12.14 20:49:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Lork Niffle on 14/12/2010 20:53:28
Originally by: MotherMoon


Also on the note of the Xbox360. The Xbox is on pair with most modern PC titles. The Xbox has a 6core 3.0 cpu rendering engines with 256Mb of ram. It is a deacated render machine, meaning it can crank out more than the equal level PC. PCs now far surpass Xbox in quality, but all those setting are optional. They don't make the game actually run any different, or somehow limit what can be done, just at what resolution it can be achieved.




No it isn't. Quite frankly the Xbox360 today is running games at a similar resolution the previous generation was running at, about 600p, which was about the mid-late 90s for PC system resolutions.

There are massive differences to what can be acheived today on a PC system over a console system, first a basic resolution of about 720p on PCs was achieved in 2000, consoles can't even do that now.

Saying it is similar to a modern system when you take out the resolution difference shows exactly why it's a poor system, any system can render a million polygons with shadows, lighting, volumetric effects and possible ray-tracing, assuming you want speed and at a resolution that is visible only a PC can achieve all that.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.15 19:53:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Tippia
…and yet, the question remains
Originally by: Seul Manus
Unfortunatly CCP is stuck in the same restrictive electonic componant time warp the general gaming industry is in, in it is ham strung by the antiquated electonic components of the slowest PC and dx 9, just as other developers are ham strung by dx 9 and the even more antiquated electonic components of the xbox360 and the PS3. Crying or Very sad
What does this have to do with rendering docking/undocking animations? You seem to keep arguing that they're not happening because CCP are restricted by low-end hardware, and yet those animations is something my Air's integrated GMA X3100 could render with complete fluidity. No extra render path and duplication of effort needed.

So why are you banging on about this hardware limitation that doesn't even exist?


I am not saying a station docking animation as a simple animated film clip. But if you look at the 4 videos again you will see that the background features on the 4 videos show a cross section of differnt ships in each station - on several levels in the Gallante station. How many stations are there in Eve? Each stations background traffic if it is not to be a carbon copy flim clip of the last one needs a changing number of different ship types corresponding with the players who are docking or leaving at the time.

In other words an ever changing multitude of assorted star ship traffic toing and froing inside the station, with it some times busy, some times not, and that kind of information requires more processing then lower end cpus can offer.

I hope that make my point a little clearer.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.15 20:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Seul Manus
I am not saying a station docking animation as a simple animated film clip. But if you look at the 4 videos again you will see that the background features on the 4 videos show a cross section of differnt ships in each station - on several levels in the Gallante station. How many stations are there in Eve? Each stations background traffic if it is not to be a carbon copy flim clip of the last one needs a changing number of different ship types corresponding with the players who are docking or leaving at the time.

[…]

I hope that make my point a little clearer.
Yes, but it still doesn't explain why it would be held back by inferior machines, since there's nothing in what you describe that would require any kind of update to the graphics engine. More specifically…
Quote:
In other words an ever changing multitude of assorted star ship traffic toing and froing inside the station, with it some times busy, some times not, and that kind of information requires more processing then lower end cpus can offer.
…this is untrue. The game already does this, and lower-end CPUs (and GPUs) already handles it just fine.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.15 20:42:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Seul Manus
I am not saying a station docking animation as a simple animated film clip. But if you look at the 4 videos again you will see that the background features on the 4 videos show a cross section of differnt ships in each station - on several levels in the Gallante station. How many stations are there in Eve? Each stations background traffic if it is not to be a carbon copy flim clip of the last one needs a changing number of different ship types corresponding with the players who are docking or leaving at the time.

[…]

I hope that make my point a little clearer.
Yes, but it still doesn't explain why it would be held back by inferior machines, since there's nothing in what you describe that would require any kind of update to the graphics engine. More specifically…
Quote:
In other words an ever changing multitude of assorted star ship traffic toing and froing inside the station, with it some times busy, some times not, and that kind of information requires more processing then lower end cpus can offer.
…this is untrue. The game already does this, and lower-end CPUs (and GPUs) already handles it just fine.


Agreed, BUT in space, not inside a station, as shown in the 4 videos.

BTW: Off topic, I reading and answering this forum post from the game it self while I do some mining for Massive Scordite. Laughing


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.15 20:47:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Seul Manus
Agreed, BUT in space, not inside a station, as shown in the 4 videos.
…and being in a limited environment (that it already renders just fine), under far more controlled circumstances still doesn't require any fancy hardware or software and still isn't held back by inferior machines.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.16 13:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Seul Manus
Agreed, BUT in space, not inside a station, as shown in the 4 videos.
…and being in a limited environment (that it already renders just fine), under far more controlled circumstances still doesn't require any fancy hardware or software and still isn't held back by inferior machines.


True, however, I am thinking of the random nature of the various star ships when exiting and entering a station which has to be continually catered for, and which requires processing power.

For example, my ship for now is an Imicus, and I leave the Gallente station, the ship is on auto pilot as the station steers it out and into space. It leaves the docking circle/ring/bay/whatever, and me/the players ship moves through the large square tunnel to join the star ship traffice exiting que.

In the que on the way out of the station is another Imicus, and 3 Velators, plus an Iteron mark III, and a Dominix, plus a Caldari Badger, Drake, and an Amarr Punisher.

And when I dock at another station on the way to the docking docking circle/ring/bay/whatever in the docking que tunnel to the other players respective ships docking bay in say a Minmatar station, is along with my Imicus, is a Caldari Bestower, a Minmatar Rapture, Probe, 3 Rifters, 4 Reapers, and a Gallantie Brutix, and Catalyst.

And when I exit is another differnt collection of ships comprising of a Minatar ...

All these other players ships going through the entry and exist tunnel in the various stations have to be rendered, and have the right amougt of shadow depending on their hull refletivity, and in station docking and exit tunnel lighting, and that all requires processing power a lower end PC and gpu may not be able to handle.

Watch the 4 videos with moving traffic in the back ground to see what I am getting at. That gives a sense of immersion that the players ship is just one part of a large star ship traffic flow into and exiting a busy[or not] space station.

As for wheather you/the player acctually wants to see your ship dock and then exit a station with differnt combinations and numbers of ships doing the same at the same time, when you press the Esc key you get on the general setting window a check box for eyefinity if you have a high end graphic card, so another check box can could be incoporated into the general setting window to tick if you want to see the real time automated animation with the various combinations of ships accompanying your ship when you dock or exit the station, or you un tick it if you are to impatient and just want the progress bar, that way the player has a choice.


Shurikane
Posted - 2010.12.16 16:04:00 - [29]
 

We don't really need the station traffic to reflect reality. Hell, we can make stuff up! Very Happy

While inside the station, you get to see other, perhaps low-res ship models coming in, sticking around for a while, then going back out. Doesn't need to reflect player behavior at all. You just pick and choose from a pool of ships and make them fly along preset paths. No communication is needed to the server, everything's client side, and you could perhaps even disable it entirely if it's too taxing on the computer.

Though even if such a wish were in the backlog, it would be safe to assume that's a low-priority item since looking at it like that, I figure it would be a fair deal of work that's perhaps not really worth the final result.

Seul Manus
Posted - 2010.12.16 17:25:00 - [30]
 

True, I could live with that so long as the station doesn't give the apprence of being a ghost town as it presently does.

As for the "we" part, as I replied to Serpents smile, it'd be nice if CCP had a poll for such things, or if it was brought up at the Q&A sessions during the fanfest, as that way the community can know if its on CCP's todo list, even though its in the near or not so near future, as this forum in no way represents the view of the Eve community, just the view of individual Eve members, as "we" are only a fraction of the player base, both registered as subscribers and which are generally on the server playing the game.


 

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