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Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:30:00 - [1]
 

Seriously is the Arazu good for anything really?

I mean sure it has a long point range -- but tbqh the time it takes an Arazu to decloak, wait out the target lock cooldown, and lock a target, any interceptor could burn the 50km or so distance gap and point the target itself. It has mediocre DPS and a tiny drone bandwidth. Its sensor damps really aren't very useful except in a few rare circumstances. Overall it is an inflexible one-trick pony that 95% of the time is completely useless. This starkly contrasts every other Recon; the Rapier and Pilgrim are awesome and flexible enough to make for good solo/small gang pvp ships while the Falcon's jamming is useful in literally every pvp situation imaginable. The Arazu on the other hand is a slow, cumbersome and cap-starved eggshell incapable of soloing any decently fit ship of any kind that lacks any kind of bonus that would actually help it in the majority of PVP situations.

IMHO it should get a bandwidth increase to 50 to allow it to put out a flight of medium drones so it can at least put a decent amount of DPS onto something from its ~50km point range, as well as an overall dronebay size of 75 so it can fit a flight of both medium and light and give it some damned needed flexibility without giving it any overpowering edge. Even then it'll still be horribly ineffective at anything, but it's a start.



Tryaz
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:41:00 - [2]
 

You make it sounds like the extended disruption range isn't an amazing ability in it's own right and whoever said you HAD to begin the engagement cloaked???

Aunty Nora
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:45:00 - [3]
 

Quote:
Seriously is the Arazu good for anything really?

Quote:

~50km point range



Rian O'Shea
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:56:00 - [4]
 

Yeah, it's not at all good at tackling a nice juicy target, damp it so it can't lock and then wait for the cavalry to warp or bridge in. I's clearly not good at that role. No sir!


Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.11 14:57:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 11/12/2010 14:59:48
Try a sensor booster, try scrambling stuff so it can't get near you, try dampening stuff so it can't lock you while you have it pointed and kited, try shooting drones that get sent your way, enjoy being a movable 96+km diameter of no warping, with 4 points anywhere within that too, or even 4 scramblers across 36+km if you have good support.

Anyura
Posted - 2010.12.11 16:03:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 11/12/2010 14:59:48
Try a sensor booster, try scrambling stuff so it can't get near you, try dampening stuff so it can't lock you while you have it pointed and kited, try shooting drones that get sent your way, enjoy being a movable 96+km diameter of no warping, with 4 points anywhere within that too, or even 4 scramblers across 36+km if you have good support.


Needs buffing.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.12.11 16:15:00 - [7]
 

As a BS pilot, the only ship I fear is the Arazu. So yes, **** the Arazu.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.12.11 16:21:00 - [8]
 

…it makes a nice empire-space exploration ship.

Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:00:00 - [9]
 

I've seen allot of Lach's being used in the area I fly in recently. With a fleet booster and faction point they can Warp disrupt to around 100km which is awesome for long range fleets etc. Arazu has the cloaky-nes added to that, and as has been said you don't need to start out cloaked in the engagement.
They're practicality is more suited for long range fleets in general.

Lord's Servant
Amarr
Hard Rock Mining Co.
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:10:00 - [10]
 

arazu/lach cant solo, the curse/pilgrim --> that way

Arazu/Lach are more or less DEDICATED gang boats, they exist to serve as long range tacklers so that nothing gets away from ur fleet.

Curse/Pilgrim are amazing solo boats due to the fact that their "ewar" shuts down opponents tank, making them a dps multiplier.

Rapier/Huginn are meant to shut down fast things that try to run away, these ships dont put out much dps either, and ever since the web nerf, Id relegate them to the same spot as arazu/lach as GANG ONLY boats, with the exception of them not being bad at picking off lone frigs.

Falcon/Rook - Rook can arguably used as a solo boat now due to its marginally better than mediocre dps, but jamming != tank, and falcon is mostly a gang boat.

tl;dr - any recon in a 1v1 will win if it plays to its strengths, but only curse/pilgrim can really "solo" to any efficiency, the others are meant for gangs.

-Lords

Machinegun Jo
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Seriously is the Arazu good for anything really?


Point. Covert-cyno. Local spike. Wake up in the station. Arazu is a damned fine boat.

#Jo

Enno Duluoz
Posted - 2010.12.11 17:16:00 - [12]
 

Faction point...

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:25:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Machinegun Jo
Originally by: Zverofaust
Seriously is the Arazu good for anything really?


Point. Covert-cyno. Local spike. Wake up in the station. Arazu is a damned fine boat.

#Jo


Works nice with Redeemers - 45km scorch optimal nicely meshes with 48km long point and damps.

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:43:00 - [14]
 

- Point / damp / damage, stealthy roaming or BOps-drop gang.
- Point / scram, cloaky option in typical Nano gang.
- LR point in typical sniper HAC gang (though the Lachesis does it better).
- Point / scram / damp in more lightly buffered EW-centric armor gangs (uncommon yet not unheard of).

If there is anything wrong with the Arazu (and by extension the Lachesis) then it is that it's cap balance is a bit ridiculous. Recons overall have certain cap issues, but the Gallente options have them with some severity. Imo, it could be corrected across the ship class.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:50:00 - [15]
 

It has it's niche uses. But the most part you are right.

People keep saying "ooohhh long point" but tbh I'd rather have an interceptor tackling. Does a better job. Cheaper, quicker, more likely to survive, and same negligible dps.

RSDs are very very situational. To be properly used an Arazu needs speed, which all recons lost in comparison to other ships with the speed nerf many years ago. Not to mention the RSD nerf it self. 3 damps barely do the job. Hell, in comparison to other ewar it's bottom of the barrel. Even TPs are far more useful, one does the job and helps everyone in gang.

The days of solo Arazu are long since past. I used to be able to kill tons of idiot BCs/BSs solo with it (could never kill anyone competent). These days, not so much. Too man nerfs, plus bonuses to other ships.

That being said, they are useful for pinning mission runners while calling for backup, and for running lowsec exploration sites.


Maylin Li
Caldari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.11 18:58:00 - [16]
 

Your best bet is to fit it like a Rapier, ignore the Damps/TP bonuses entirely. Something like.


[Arazu, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Scrambler II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

It really, really, really helps to have Claymore/Loki links, honestly, I'd go as far to say as it isn't worth flying without them. It is a good ship for pointing stuff further than people can engage, i.e. in Drake/Machariel gangs you can point stuff without entering point range yourself, and avoid the majority of close and mid range cruiser weapon damage. Genos uses Lachesis quite extensively for this. Honestly, the Arazu is probably not worth taking over a Lachesis, but if you need the cloak, are lacking a scout, or trying to do some cloak stuff the Arazu works fine

DeadNite
Caldari
Detrimental Imperative
Posted - 2010.12.11 19:00:00 - [17]
 

Every ship is good at something. Hopes/dreams/tears will not make your hurricane do 900DPS from 85KM away regaurdless of how many "Nerf Drake" threads appear.

48-60KM Points are amazing for BiggestGateEver(tm) camps.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.12.11 19:20:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: TimMc on 11/12/2010 19:20:26
If you want a long range scram, use a Lachesis.

If you want to probe someone, warp to them then decloak and point from up to 88km away (faction point, claymore and overheated), use the arazu.


Edit: If you want to use damps, give your tears to CCP.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.12.11 19:43:00 - [19]
 

It's good for gatecamps, just need to make sure the arazu is ALREADY DECLOAKED.

Also, make sure you put a big plate on it and lots of sebos...

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.11 20:02:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
As a BS pilot, the only ship I fear is the Arazu. So yes, **** the Arazu.


Comedy gold right here. I can't remember a single arazu that didn't end up as comedy KM trying this with me.

Veliria
Posted - 2010.12.11 20:06:00 - [21]
 

I always had the daft idea of mixing an Arazu with a few Stealth Bombers and cloaky gank solo targets.
Arazu decloaks first at scram optimal of like 18-20km and damps the target's locking range.
Stealth Bombers then decloak and are each fitted with a damp of their own to reduce the lock range further.
Put together it reduces the target's lock range to like 10km, meaning it can't even lock anything (Arazu can deal with any drones) and it can't MWD or warp out.

If anything happens, the gang just recloaks since they aren't locked.

William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
Posted - 2010.12.11 20:11:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Veliria
I always had the daft idea of mixing an Arazu with a few Stealth Bombers and cloaky gank solo targets.
Arazu decloaks first at scram optimal of like 18-20km and damps the target's locking range.
Stealth Bombers then decloak and are each fitted with a damp of their own to reduce the lock range further.
Put together it reduces the target's lock range to like 10km, meaning it can't even lock anything (Arazu can deal with any drones) and it can't MWD or warp out.

If anything happens, the gang just recloaks since they aren't locked.


BRB, trying this.
Fake edit:\\ We died.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.11 20:23:00 - [23]
 

while the awesomeness of the arazu is debatable, this point has been beaten to death.

tbh my biggest gripe on the arazu is the lack of mobility.
the damn thing moves like a brickugh

besides that, yes it can do a crapload of stuff at the same time, altho it's barely optimal in my view, since 9 times out of 10 a tackling inty can do pretty much the same thing for a fraction of the cost and increased survivability, as an ewar ship it pales in comparision to the falcon (then again, all of them pale in comparision), as a scout it is... doable, but a cov ops is, yet again more mobile and it probes better.

as a cloaky probing warp-in point that can warpjam something, if you can live without the warp range bonus and ewar capability, a tengu can be made to be much more sturdy and mobile.

in sum, the arazu is not a great ship. it has many flaws and it does need a nudge in the direction of being a ewar platform (since T2 = speciality, and not jack-off-all-trades), but it is not as bad as you paint it specially when you have a very small gang and you need an offensive utility ship to cover many roles, altho suboptimally.

For the record I do hate how the ship is today: pretty much a sack of lard that tries to do many things and has the EHP of a T1 unplated cruiser the mobility of a battleship, and the dps of a mining barge, or meh 1-trick-pony only good at pointing stuff in regional gates (that tackling interceptors can do for less isk). All of this because Tuxford forgot that there were damp-bonused ewar ships when they nerfed dampners (a needed, yet if totally overdone nerf)

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.11 20:37:00 - [24]
 

Well it is kind of useful pointing people in L4 or plexes where the MWD don't works and the long point range actually makes quite a difference. Beside of this it is a slow cap hug, without a tank, with close to zero dps(what do you think people shoot once they can't target you?) and a ewar that is very situational and rather weak most of the time.

Cornette
Gallente
Solar Revenue Service
TAXU
Posted - 2010.12.11 21:18:00 - [25]
 

I haven't used my Arazu since CCP nerfed dampeners for.. how long was it ago - 3 years? Since then It has collected dust in a hangar waiting for a better time.

I don't use it because there is better ships for the role of tackling and as other people said its a brick of a ship, even with fibers.

If I don't missremember it was CCP Zulu that did the damp nerfing and forgot to boost the arazu. People back then used to stick dampeners on just everything that had a free mid slot so it had be nerfed. But the Arazu lost 1 of the 2 reasons why I would fly a arazu and not something else.

The Lach fill the long-point role perfectly and I can fit a decent shielbuffer tank at the same time.

Instead I've seen people use the Arazu as a Thorax with blasters - a lol idea really because because I always primary those first if I see one in the hostile gang.


Damn, now I want to bring out my Lach...

1 Lack + decent number of dps ships + 3 Scimitars = awsomesouce gang.

Footoo Rama
Gallente
Beyond Control.
Posted - 2010.12.11 21:30:00 - [26]
 

Loved and hated ship...

If you know what you are doing, and it is fit correctly for what you are trying to do it is devastating and normally has multiple uses. Sure it is not the best solo ship out there due to lack of dps, but when used correctly it is devastating. Paired with a rapier on a gate camp even those 2 ships can trap and hold and kill inties or even SB's.

Yes it is misunderstood as it is someone rigid in its uses but a good FC will always welcome one in the gang. as they can scout, as well as long point and just shut down enemy ecm or logistics with damps.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:10:00 - [27]
 

Well its more of a lach role but that kind of ewar is almost necessary for sniping gangs if they don't want to hope their target is just to dumb to warp off in time.

Other than that the ship is of middling quality. Not a solo ship do to lack of DPS and the wrong kind of ewar for solo work. Nice for hotdropping people with capitols or black ops but also somewhat obvious. Ok in a SB gang but nothing to really write home about. The ship isn't UP but unless you're using it for specific gang related purposes it isn't great either.

Now compare it to a rapier/huginn. Minmatar ewar ships can project about the same damage just a little better. Long webs don't help a fleet unless you already have an arazu/lachesis. It takes 3 midslots (1 long point 2x webs) to do the work of one long scrambler, although I'll admit the scrambler has a shorter range. And TPs make it easier to hit the target, which isn't any different than what webs do. Only webs also keep the target tackled so most people ignore the target painter bonus altogether. The sensor damp bonus on the other hand, while kind of crappy and often ignored, at least provides another option for gallente ewar pilots.

In conclusion. You have nothing to complain about other than the nerfed and unbalanced state of ewar as a whole. Increase gallente damp bonuses the same time you give target painters a reworking.

MoeJoe Green
Gallente
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:19:00 - [28]
 

One of the few Gallente boats that are actually really good for fleets. small and large.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2010.12.11 22:46:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: MoeJoe Green
One of the few Gallente boats that are actually really good for fleets. small and large.



depends of what you understand by "small" and "large"

in large fleets, you can "deconstruct" the arazu's roles into a good number of more effective ships on the more used roles (inties, cov ops) that will cost a fraction of said arazu, and be more survivable. it still works in said large fleets tho. it's just that it really starts to get overstepped by them.

in small fleets.. well I think it works, but it still feels lacking.ugh

Millsy1
Posted - 2010.12.12 00:32:00 - [30]
 

Having lost 18 of the damn things, I will say, they are excellent at gatecamps. Turning off a MWD at 21km without faction or bonus's?

that gets things like this killed Linkage

Would I like something else sometimes... ya. I fit a 1600mm and 2 enams with trimarks. It warps like a carrier...

But. I can fit a expanded launcher, covert cyno, regular cyno (offline), covert cloak. MWD -AND- Afterburner, along with a sensor booster Warp disruptor and scram, and web. It's also stable with everything except the MWD.

So you probe a nice T3 plexing, warp in decloaked, web/scram, then keep up with the after burner, drop 4 med ECM drones, light the covert cyno. Enjoy the T3 loot because even when the cyno is finished, they are still in scram range.

Oh ya, and if you get bonuses and a faction point, you can sit 100km away and point those silly buggers who think they are outside of point range, while you are well within rep range.


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