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blankseplocked [Request] Devblog about botting
 
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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:33:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx
Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.

Some people bot but don't RMT, some people RMT but don't bot, but a lot of people who bot RMT (and vice versa). Or to put it another way, those who bot are more likely to RMT, and those who RMT are more likely to bot.

Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.

From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.

With respect to RMT, since it is basically an exercise in money-laundering, I have suggested to CCP (and will continue to suggest) that they consider engaging an academic forensic accountant to work with Dr. Eyjó -- studying the criminal masterminds of EVE may not only help fight crime in the game but provide insights that are useful in the real world.

Zuia
Minmatar
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:53:00 - [122]
 


Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2010.12.12 10:56:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Kalle Demos on 12/12/2010 10:57:28
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow




The problem is, CCP have always targeting RMT ONLY, I am not sure how effective but they HAVE and WILL focus on RMT ONLY, so focusing more on RMT doesnt make any sense when the botting is the reason they are making ISK.

If a person is spamming forums (example) all the time, you dont take away his / her post you do something about the poster, same applies to botting & rmt, why delete the RMT when the botter is there to continue :P

Oh and I bet theres more botters than RMT out there, focus on the big picture, killing bots -> kills RMT, not the otherway around because killing RMT -> bots get freedom AGAIN

A RMT can easily after a 'temp' ban or ban, buy an account, log on bot and sell ISK over and over, if you focus on the botting and punish botters players will have little chance of being able to RMT

As for an overpaid forensic accountant, I say eve needs more GMs to fix broken game mechanics, besides this isnt RL, GMs have access to all the info and know where the ISK comes from anyway.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.12.12 11:46:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Aineko Macx on 12/12/2010 11:48:19
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.

Correlation does not imply non-orthogonality.

Quote:
From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.

Yes, but handling it with spam-like filters requires the building of behavior data for each player over time first so you can run your statistics on it. Because of the extra server and DB load I don't think this will happen. Unless you find a really small/readily available set of variables which strongly correlate with someone using bots and which could be stored with little overhead.
Probably they'll go ahead with aggregating data from different detection methods which alone wouldn't be very effective, but at least easy to implement, and that combined yield a decent result.

And btw, we have a "report isk seller" button, why don't we have a "report bot user"?

Navigator Darsy
Posted - 2010.12.12 12:48:00 - [125]
 

Support.
It'd be great to hear smt about botting from dev. side

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:15:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx

And btw, we have a "report isk seller" button, why don't we have a "report bot user"?


Because RMT'ing takes money away from CCP's GTC and PLEX programs while botting gives money to CCP.


Lobasti
Pretenders Inc
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:25:00 - [127]
 

Support.

Blind Khazid
Iron Hands
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:26:00 - [128]
 

+

Senkaster
Posted - 2010.12.12 14:40:00 - [129]
 

Support this

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.12 15:03:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 12/12/2010 15:04:44
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Sorry Treb, but the two are orthogonal, you don't have to bot to rmt, nor is someone who bots forced to rmt. Sure, often they work hand in hand, but the reasons and implications are distinct.

Some people bot but don't RMT, some people RMT but don't bot, but a lot of people who bot RMT (and vice versa). Or to put it another way, those who bot are more likely to RMT, and those who RMT are more likely to bot.

Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting. They are significantly correlated, and thus not orthogonal variables.

From a technical standpoint, bot detection and countermeasures are likely to be the most cost-effective way of going after the whole issue; it's a well-understood problem akin to spam-filtering.

With respect to RMT, since it is basically an exercise in money-laundering, I have suggested to CCP (and will continue to suggest) that they consider engaging an academic forensic accountant to work with Dr. Eyjó -- studying the criminal masterminds of EVE may not only help fight crime in the game but provide insights that are useful in the real world.


This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.

Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).

Both of those will also reduce the incentive to buy ISK: If PVE is fun, people wont need to buy as much ISK, because they'll be having fun making it. And when bot ISK is harder to make, thus scarcer, people wont feel "forced" to buy ISK just to compete.

The problem requires both a holistic approach, and a recognition that there are many ways of generating ISK for RMT that dont require botting, and many people who bot for reasons other than RMTing. Maybe the two issues aren't perfectly orthogonal, but they're no where near perfectly parallel either.

And as a side benefit, adding challenging, unpredictable, involving PVE will in and of itself have a business benefit, since more people will play EVE for that. Even if it does nothing to stop botting, it's justified on its own merits.

Nader Bombsalot
Posted - 2010.12.12 15:12:00 - [131]
 

Yes.

Danashka
Posted - 2010.12.12 15:51:00 - [132]
 

Neutral

GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:07:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Aineko Macx

And btw, we have a "report isk seller" button, why don't we have a "report bot user"?


Because RMT'ing takes money away from CCP's GTC and PLEX programs while botting gives money to CCP.




so botting ingame making isk to fund a whole variety of different accounts isnt taking money away from CCP? i doubt it! that ISK made botting unfairly is used to buy PLEX's to carry on accounts, as apposed to actually paying for accounts with money that should be going to CCP.

im not in any way say PLEX's r bad... just when bought with ISK made unfairly and breaking CCP's EULA!

SargeantNekkid DDS
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:20:00 - [134]
 

Yes, I'd like to see another dev post on this.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:32:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting.


This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.

Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).

Making PVE more fun would reduce the demand for RMT'd ISK, but it wouldn't deter bots running 23/7. Making it harder to bot would decrease RMT ISK availability, increasing its RL price, increasing motivation to RMT.

Theres multiple feedback loops in the system and theres multiple variables we don't know about (how much ISK was RMT'd? How much RL money was paid for it? How many bots are there? How many of the PLEX sold went to bot accounts?), so predicting the interaction of ISK<>RL (both legit and RMT) conversion rate, the supply and demand for PLEX, the number of bots, their general impact on eves economy and many other things becomes nears impossible. Even CCP can only guestimate.

VIncent Vance
Gallente
URSALIS LOGISTICS GROUP

Posted - 2010.12.12 17:34:00 - [136]
 


Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.12.12 17:43:00 - [137]
 

It is childlishly naive to think that in the present day there is any MMO without bots, without RMT, without hacks. Still, it would be nice to see CCP's perspective and an overview of actions they have taken.

Regulottus
Neptune Research Corporation

Posted - 2010.12.12 18:14:00 - [138]
 


FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:07:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud

so botting ingame making isk to fund a whole variety of different accounts isnt taking money away from CCP? i doubt it!


That's okay, you're allowed to be wrong. Cool
Botting for ISK and buying GTC's or PLEXes with botted ISK takes not one single cent out of CCP's pocket, because every single GTC or PLEX comes from real money that's been given to CCP.

Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud

that ISK made botting unfairly is used to buy PLEX's to carry on accounts, as apposed to actually paying for accounts with money that should be going to CCP.




Someone still has to pay for those accounts with real money that goes directly to CCP. That people then give those primary-buyers ISK, or lollypops or oral sex in exchange for those real-money-bought-PLEX doesn't matter. CCP gets paid.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:30:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Crippling botting would reduce RMT, and crippling RMT would reduce botting.


This is precisely the wrong approach. This is essentially symptomatic treatment.

Reduce the incentive to bot (Make PVE fun). Reduce the value of botting (make PVE require intelligence).

Making PVE more fun would reduce the demand for RMT'd ISK, but it wouldn't deter bots running 23/7. Making it harder to bot would decrease RMT ISK availability, increasing its RL price, increasing motivation to RMT.

Theres multiple feedback loops in the system and theres multiple variables we don't know about (how much ISK was RMT'd? How much RL money was paid for it? How many bots are there? How many of the PLEX sold went to bot accounts?), so predicting the interaction of ISK<>RL (both legit and RMT) conversion rate, the supply and demand for PLEX, the number of bots, their general impact on eves economy and many other things becomes nears impossible. Even CCP can only guestimate.


Not being able to perfectly solve the problem isn't a reason not to try and mitigate it. Especially when the proposed partial solution is to essentially improve the game for human players.

If making EVE's PvE fun and unpredictable merely means that somewhat fewer people want to buy ISK and that its also going to be somewhat more expensive, then I'm not seeing a downside here.

I'm all in favour of improved and increased GM activity, more sophisticated auditing tools, etc. And I'm all in favour of harsher punishment for botting and for selling and buying ISK (simply removing the bought ISK isn't enough IMO). But the fact is that GM interventions are employed after the fact: by the time they get involved, the damage has already been done.

As well as focusing on the supply, CCP also need to reduce demand or, as you point out, the demand for a reduced supply causes prices to rise, stimulating more supply. CCP made a brilliant move with the GTC/PLEX system, since it provided an alternative to RMT. Time to follow that up with improving the game in ways that further reduce both demand and supply as well as more and better GM activity.

dezigan
Posted - 2010.12.12 21:54:00 - [141]
 

i'm really disappointed.Crying or Very sad

Seymour Roids
Neptune Research Corporation

Posted - 2010.12.12 22:08:00 - [142]
 

Supported

Eclipse Q
Posted - 2010.12.12 22:32:00 - [143]
 

Support

Swarog Hjellstadt
Caldari
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2010.12.13 02:05:00 - [144]
 


Plastician
Into The Pink

Posted - 2010.12.13 03:48:00 - [145]
 

Its gotta stop. Supported.

Grayfish
Posted - 2010.12.13 04:27:00 - [146]
 

support!

Lobredino
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:14:00 - [147]
 

Support

Davelantor
Caldari
The Resistance Movement

Posted - 2010.12.13 06:34:00 - [148]
 

Punkbuster for EvE :P

Melinia88
Posted - 2010.12.13 06:36:00 - [149]
 


Ni'Hau
Posted - 2010.12.13 09:03:00 - [150]
 

/signed


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